Spitfire - Maybe a Little Too Good?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Like most everyone else with Kuban, I have been enjoying testing out the new Spitfire; and something just doesn't feel right.

 

Handling and flying the Spitfire just feels way too easy. Downing aircraft is a breeze. Hopping from even the Yak-1b into the Spit doesn't just feel like a new aircraft, but a whole new game entirely.

 

I understand that it was supposed to be a smooth flyer; but this feels excessive, and is something amiss? Or is this the new flight model we're feeling? With upcoming flight model changes, can we expect a bit more ease in the handling of our other aircraft to narrow the gap? If so, those updates can't come soon enough.

 

Before it happens, keep the flaming away from here. This is an honest query, not an accusation.

Edited July 9, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[LLv24_Zami]

Like most everyone else with Kuban, I have been enjoying testing out the new Spitfire; and something just doesn't feel right.

 

Handling and flying the Spitfire just feels way too easy. Downing aircraft is a breeze. Hopping from even the Yak-1b into the Spit doesn't just feel like a new aircraft, but a whole new game entirely.

 

I understand that it was supposed to be a smooth flyer; but this feels excessive, and is something amiss? Or is this the new flight model we're feeling? With upcoming flight model changes, can we expect a bit more ease in the handling of our other aircraft to narrow the gap? If so, those updates can't come soon enough.

Spitfire uses the new improved FM already.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Spitfire uses the new improved FM already.

I am aware of that.

 

I am curious if the ease of use is related more to the FM or the aircraft. I *hope* it's the FM, so that when the changes come I won't feel like I am intentionally gimping myself by choosing any other aircraft.

 

Can we expect this sort of enjoyable flying from other craft when the changes are complete?

Edited July 9, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Mmaruda]

Not sure about the FM, but it seems like it's supposed to be according to various stuff you can read. You can still win against the Spit, but this requires some patient and tactical flying. In any case, it's a legendary plane for a reason and the sim seems to reflect it.

[LLv24_Zami]

I am aware of that.

 

I am curious if the ease of use is related more to the FM or the aircraft. I *hope* it's the FM, so that when the changes come I won't feel like I am intentionally gimping myself by choosing any other aircraft.

 

Can we expect this sort of enjoyable flying from other craft when the changes are complete?

I don`t know if it`s more of the new FM or the plane because Spit never used the older FM to compare. But all planes will give a more stable and enjoyable ride with the new FM. 

[FTC_Riksen]

I fear the yak1b more than I do the Spit to be honest. If you are patient and manage to keep the combat vertical, you should eventually get a gun solution. The problem is being able to hit such shots which require a lot of practice. With the F4 things get a little bit more complicated but still possible. The spit surely is a formidable aircraft so never underestimate it!

[Thad]

Be still heart. I pinched myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming.... some craft is considered TOO easy to fly in IL2!!!!

 

Nevermind... I'm sure I'll wake up soon and give a big sigh of relief at such absurdity.

[54th_Glitter_]

Not sure about the FM, but it seems like it's supposed to be according to various stuff you can read. You can still win against the Spit, but this requires some patient and tactical flying. In any case, it's a legendary plane for a reason and the sim seems to reflect it.

 

Exactly.

A legendary plane that competed the 109. Sensations flying this plane concurs with the reading matter available. 

 

We shoud not be afraid to reflect in the sim the challenge that spitfire was in real life to Luftwaffe. I think during last years the planes taking part in the sim have accurately reflected the machinery superiority of LWF, but with the new planes aditions this "status quo" is changing, and thanks to this planes the sim is evolving to a more balanced confrontation, as happened in the develop of war. I was waiting for a topic like this as soon as LWF pilots realised that with spitfire in game their hegemony would be a little harder to maintain, but i personally find the current situation well adjusted to the quality of planes displayed in sim....and just wait for P39 

 

By the way: i find .303 underpowered, you can throw seconds of shooting to a enemy plane and make no damage; you have to rely on wings hispanos which are tricky to converge on target in battle, but when they do they are terrific. I dont know if 303 were this soft in war.

[Barnacles]

I fear the yak1b more than I do the Spit to be honest. If you are patient and manage to keep the combat vertical, you should eventually get a gun solution. The problem is being able to hit such shots which require a lot of practice. With the F4 things get a little bit more complicated but still possible. The spit surely is a formidable aircraft so never underestimate it!

 

Spot on Riksen. The 1b has advantages over the Vb and vice verca.   

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

You guys seem to be misunderstanding. I'm not talking about the technical superiority of either side over the other. Or who can shoot down who. I understand this being the honeymoon period, some will be quick to jump to defense, as is the usual case. That is not what I was trying to discuss.

 

I'm talking about ease of handling. When I talk about disparity between aircraft I mean strictly in how they fly and handle. The *feel* of the aircraft. Saying that it confirms the subjective accounts of people who flew it...it isn't like it is the only craft we have that somebody somewhere described as easy to fly.

 

As I said before, it doesn't feel like a different, better handling aircraft. It feels like a different game. I suspect that having a historically smooth aircraft also be the first to also have the new FM is what is contributing to the feeling of the Spit being overdone.

 

From what others have responded, it sounds like we can look forward to smoother rides for all aircraft once the new FM is universal; then we can know for sure if the Spitfire is "right"; and I hope it is. More planes flying a little like her will be good for the sim and its future.

Edited July 10, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Gambit21]

Yeah - wait for the global application of the revised FM.

[ShamrockOneFive]

You guys seem to be misunderstanding. I'm not talking about the technical superiority of either side over the other. Or who can shoot down who. I understand this being the honeymoon period, some will be quick to jump to defense, as is the usual case. That is not what I was trying to discuss.

 

I'm talking about ease of handling. When I talk about disparity between aircraft I mean strictly in how they fly and handle. The *feel* of the aircraft. Saying that it confirms the subjective accounts of people who flew it...it isn't like it is the only craft we have that somebody somewhere described as easy to fly.

 

As I said before, it doesn't feel like a different, better handling aircraft. It feels like a different game. I suspect that having a historically smooth aircraft also be the first to also have the new FM is what is contributing to the feeling of the Spit being overdone.

 

From what others have responded, it sounds like we can look forward to smoother rides for all aircraft once the new FM is universal; then we can know for sure if the Spitfire is "right"; and I hope it is. More planes flying a little like her will be good for the sim and its future.

 

I know what you're talking about but I think it would be most prudent to wait until the next patch and then evaluate all of the aircraft globally (which will definitely take me some time) coming back and commenting on the Spitfire.

 

Allegedly its using the new FM (I say that because I don't think its been confirmed but its evident that it very likely is).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I've been flying it exclusively. She handles well but has plenty of quirks of it's own. It doesn't fly on rails and it can't compete with the Fw through most of the flight envelope. Like every other AC in this sim it has strengths and weaknesses. It's world class but certainly not a world beater. Don't turn fight against it and be smart about separation/overshoots.

 

The rest of the AC will be updated soon but until then fly to the strengths of almost any LW aircraft and you will have little to fear from the Spit.

[Wulf]

I've only fought a couple of human opponents in their Spits thus far.  Now, assuming those encounters are anything to go by, I can't see why the Spit should necessarily present any unmanageable difficulties for the FW driver (I haven't tried the 109) - in a one on one engagement; if the 190 can fight in the vertical.   

 

However, fighting a Vb at altitude, in a 190, may be an entirely different proposition.  I suspect that at 5+K the 190 may well struggle to get into a shooting position.  

[Guest deleted@83466]

My initial impression of the Spit is that it is somewhere between the Yak 1 series 69 and the Yak 1b.  It's a good aircraft with a couple of tricks up it's sleeve, and most importantly, you look good flying it.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Iceworm

[Finkeren]

I'm not sure to be honest. I think the perception, that the Spit is overly "easy" to handle might stem from 2 specific aspects of the FM:

 

1. The very effective elevator combined with the unusual but quite docile behavior during accelerated stall.

 

2. The very low landing speed and favorable glidning characteristics.

 

Both of these are in line with what I've read about the Spit, but honestly, I don't find her that easy to fly otherwise. Trying to do scissors against a Fw 190 I found that she is very easy to throw into a spin, especially if you mishandle rudder just a little bit, and while she does keep energy quite nicely in a coordinated turn, as soon as you mishandle or pull too far back it's like hitting the brakes on a car. She will go from 400km/h to 200km/h in the blink of an eye.

 

The only thing I'm kinda iffy on is its stability as a gun platform, but I'm withholding judgement of that until after the FM revision in 2.012.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I'm not sure to be honest. I think the perception, that the Spit is overly "easy" to handle might stem from 2 specific aspects of the FM:

 

1. The very effective elevator combined with the unusual but quite docile behavior during accelerated stall.

 

2. The very low landing speed and favorable glidning characteristics.

 

Both of these are in line with what I've read about the Spit, but honestly, I don't find her that easy to fly otherwise. Trying to do scissors against a Fw 190 I found that she is very easy to throw into a spin, especially if you mishandle rudder just a little bit, and while she does keep energy quite nicely in a coordinated turn, as soon as you mishandle or pull too far back it's like hitting the brakes on a car. She will go from 400km/h to 200km/h in the blink of an eye.

 

The only thing I'm kinda iffy on is its stability as a gun platform, but I'm withholding judgement of that until after the FM revision in 2.012.

 

Well, you have 2 hours of time in the Spit, compared to some Luftwaffe only guy who has 1800 hours in the Focke-Wulf or Bf-109.  I lost my first online scissors battle too, only to be rescued by an I-16 that just happened to be there!   But I'm feeling pretty good about this airplane!

[Finkeren]

Oh don't get me wrong, it's good, really good. I just don't think it's necessarilly too easy or forgiving.

[unreasonable]

I find the Spitfire easy to fly co-ordinated - as per pilot reports - and this may well be partly down to the new FM.  What it does not like is sudden, sharp AoA changes: the large wing area is then going to have the immediate braking effect as Fink describes.  Compare with a 109 which you can yank around at a considerably higher AoA: the Spitfire will do an accelerated stall in direction changes that you can pull off in a 109. So although the Spitfire elevator is correctly very sensitive, that does not mean that you should be using it to make sudden rough direction changes. Or if you do, you had better hit the target.....

 

Fly it onto the target by turning rather than pointing at the target and expecting the engine to take you there in a straight line...  it is a bit like driving an MG rather than an Austin-Healey. (Apologies to anyone who has not had the opportunity to do either ) 

[Trinkof]

Unfortunatlty I am on trip for several months, so I will not try the beast soon.... But from what I read it seems fantastic....

 

If I am correct, the spit MkVb is supposed to have found almost perfect parity verus the Macchi Mc202, according to brits and italian pilots.... If what I read is correct from player report, either spit is too good or macchi that I recall in Il2 is too bad...

The mc202 vs spit mkVb ovet malta is often quoted regarding the aircraft as the most balanced duel of the war ...

Edited July 10, 2017 by LAL_Trinkof

[Finkeren]

Unfortunatlty I am on trip dor several months, so I will not try the beast soon.... But from what I read it seems fantastic....

 

If I am correct, the spit MkVb is supposed to have found almost perfect parity verus the Macchi Mc202, according to brits and italian pilots.... If what I read is correct from player report, either spit is too good or macchi thatI recall in Il2 is too bad...

Yeah, to be quite honest, there is no contest there. The Spit is better, hands down.

[=GW=xshinel]

My mate said that according to the performance of the Spitfire, the feeling of the new FM may close to the war thunder

[Field-Ops]

My mate said that according to the performance of the Spitfire, the feeling of the new FM may close to the war thunder

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

My mate said that according to the performance of the Spitfire, the feeling of the new FM may close to the war thunder

Honestly...the Spit kinda feels that way to me! Edited July 10, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

From what others have responded, it sounds like we can look forward to smoother rides for all aircraft once the new FM is universal; then we can know for sure if the Spitfire is "right"; and I hope it is. More planes flying a little like her will be good for the sim and its future.

Instead of cross-comparing FMs which is bad (each has a small error margin adding up when comparing them) maybe you should read about it's flight characteristics and study flight reports. The Spitfire was carefully designed according to such material with a great attention to detail and authenticity. If you want to seriously prove them wrong you have to offer something better than 'feeling'.

 

My mate said that according to the performance of the Spitfire, the feeling of the new FM may close to the war thunder

War Thunder FMs never posessed that complexity.

Edited July 10, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[=GW=xshinel]

Instead of cross-comparing FMs which is bad (each has a small error margin adding up when comparing them) maybe you should read about it's flight characteristics and study flight reports. The Spitfire was carefully designed according to such material with a great attention for detail and authenticity. If you want to seriously prove them wrong you have to offer something better than 'feeling'.

 

War Thunder FMs never posessed that complexity.

Definitely, no doubt, we believe IL2 has the best FM in these flight simulator.

We thought WT was not good enough, until the spitfire released, well, not bad we thought then.

 

Hahaha

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Instead of cross-comparing FMs which is bad (each has a small error margin adding up when comparing them) maybe you should read about it's flight characteristics and study flight reports. The Spitfire was carefully designed according to such material with a great attention for detail and authenticity. If you want to seriously prove them wrong you have to offer something better than 'feeling'.

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, and I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong. Don't let my subjective opinion of any part of this game we all play infringe upon your enjoyment of it. If it seems right to you, so be it. To me, I'll wait until we see what the other aircraft feel like with the new flight model.

 

As I stated before, I'm just curious if the extreme ease of flight is *more* due to the revised model, or the aircraft itself.

[216th_Jordan]

As I stated before, I'm just curious if the extreme ease of flight is *more* due to the revised model, or the aircraft itself.

 

Well you have pilot accounts saying how easy handling her was and then you see that the model posesses no or little oscillations compared to the other current models, so I guess you could say both is likely true.

[ZachariasX]

Has the first thread about "only if a plane is very difficult to control, it can be realistic" started?

 

Yet we have the new FM only on one aircraft? IRL, good aircraft are "easy" to fly. It's the bad aircrat that do things beyond the pilots intentions. Making things artificially complicated catering for people with 1000+ hours on their Saitek to make their learning curve a bit steeper has not much to do with "reality".

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Don't worry Xach. I have worse gear than probably 90% of people on this forum (play on 14 inch, 5 year old laptop, cheap twist stick, etc).

 

I have all sorts of problems controlling anything but bombers and ground attackers and am a piss poor pilot; so when we get an aircraft that gives me no problems whatsoever, it seems weird to me!

 

My hope is actually for more easy to control craft in the future!

 

So in answer to your opening question. "No."

Edited July 10, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[jaydee]

Like most everyone else with Kuban, I have been enjoying testing out the new Spitfire; and something just doesn't feel right.

 

Handling and flying the Spitfire just feels way too easy. Downing aircraft is a breeze. Hopping from even the Yak-1b into the Spit doesn't just feel like a new aircraft, but a whole new game entirely.

 

I understand that it was supposed to be a smooth flyer; but this feels excessive, and is something amiss? Or is this the new flight model we're feeling? With upcoming flight model changes, can we expect a bit more ease in the handling of our other aircraft to narrow the gap? If so, those updates can't come soon enough.

 

Before it happens, keep the flaming away from here. This is an honest query, not an accusation.

 

HI H . Good question !  The new Spit is the first Plane in Bos that , when I first jumped in, I was able to TO , Fly and then Land (With a little spin at the end of the RW)... First Fly ! ... Didn't crash on takeoff, Didn't Fry the Engine and didn't mess up my approach and landing....Wow !.. And the Spit felt wonderful to fly..

I have well over 500 Hrs in the "CLOD" Spits !  There is No doubt in my mind, that the Spit we have in BOS now, is "Related" to the "CLOD  Spit "...But so much is improved ! Ground Handling for one !  Its harder ! ..

That is the reason I was able to complete (almost) an entire sortie my first time in this new BOS aircraft...

I have read a few comments on the "Net" about AccuSim Spit being the Benchmark for Spit Simulation....Some of them say the BOS Spit may grab that title !

This is not a OP plane . It is just a well simulated Spitfire from WW2. The Devs have done well...

Bottom line for me is I love this Spit. Hopefully some other issues for LW planes will be addressed in the next patch...

Overall , I think the Spitfire (so far) has been a "Showcase" for the Devs. I think we have the Best Simulated Spitfire. ( if I ever have Millions to Buy and Fly a Real one , I will edit this post ).

The future is looking good (ww2 Simmers) for us with BOS.

~S~

Edit BTW I also have the DCS Spit !.. Nothing above changes !

Edited July 10, 2017 by jaydee

[CisTer-dB-]

Without intend to sound pretentious, I was lucky enough to fly the real thing. I think that the way it fly is pretty good, a bit simplified but the feel is spot on. There is no need to complicate things, once inside it's envelope and trimed, they are not like pedals boats, most aircraft's are design to be stable.
o7

Edited July 10, 2017 by ATAG_dB

[Guest deleted@50488]

I can't guess, because I never even set in a real Spitfire... but from all of the texts I can read about it ( various models ), I can only say that I like, overall, the feel of this Spitfire Vb, the integration in the IL2 Game, etc..., but I think some of it's unfamous characteristics aren't being replicated, namely:

 

.) the carefull handling on ground, due to the CoG relative to the main gear, easily tricking the pilots if brakes were used without care...  In the IL2 model, I can even use full brake immediately after touching down in three wheel... down to a full stop, without fearing a prop strike...

 

.) the absence of rolling moment due to torque at a wide range of speeds and power settings. I would expect that a takeoff at max boost would make the rolling ( not only yawing ) tendency evident ?  Also inflight, sudden bursts of power, or cuts, do not appear to have much of an effect in rolling the aircraft, due to engine/prop torque...

 

.) the authority of the tail surfaces ( this one is characteristic, imho, of all fighters in il2 Battle of..). I can use the rudder to steer the Spitfire, specially in the absence of significant winds on ground, using just the rudder. It should rely a lot more on differential braking, I believe... particularly on a non steerable ( daisy ) tailwheel taildragger...

 

.) Finally a side note on something I found, by chance, on one of the vlights I did yesterday...

 

While I was trying to "measure" the prop effects at max takeoff power, which I find tame ( imho ) , on one occasion I ended up taking of from the grass, and was surprised to find out that after firewalling the throttle, I didn't have to use any rudder at all, and even less aileron, to maintain the aircraft flying straight until rotation speed ( ? ). I was so astonished that I immediately repeated the test starting from the runway. This was in a Quick Mission, and I checked "simplified FM" was not ticked!  ( * )

 

Might it be that ground physics are way relaxed when operating outside of runways / on grass ? I wonder if this was always the case since the only situations I ground handle my aircraft, in IL2 and IRL, out of the runways happen when I land out, in emergency...

 

( * ) it was late, and I was sleepy - will have to repeat / reproduce further...

Edited July 10, 2017 by jcomm

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

About the Spit Mk V vs the Mc 202. It might depend on the version of the Spit mk V (specially the engine, Merlin 46 =/= 45 =/= 45M) and also the engine regulations (no +16 boost in 1941). The MC 202 also had a couple engine variants IIRC (The 109E's engine and the 109 F-2 one?) so some extra info on the specific planes would be needed imho, I don't know much about the Med theater.

Edited July 10, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Wulf]

 Trying to do scissors against a Fw 190 I found that she is very easy to throw into a spin, especially if you mishandle rudder just a little bit, and while she does keep energy quite nicely in a coordinated turn, as soon as you mishandle or pull too far back it's like hitting the brakes on a car. She will go from 400km/h to 200km/h in the blink of an eye.

 

The only thing I'm kinda iffy on is its stability as a gun platform, but I'm withholding judgement of that until after the FM revision in 2.012.

 

 

Why would you try an scissor fight a 190 in an early Mk Spit ?  That's a contest you simply couldn't win.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Wulf

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, and I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong. Don't let my subjective opinion of any part of this game we all play infringe upon your enjoyment of it. If it seems right to you, so be it. To me, I'll wait until we see what the other aircraft feel like with the new flight model.

 

As I stated before, I'm just curious if the extreme ease of flight is *more* due to the revised model, or the aircraft itself.

Your opinion is welcome though it did sound criticising to me (hence why I replied defensively).

 

To me the Spitfire is one of the most close-to-the-real-thing aircraft ingame at the moment. Pilot notes and 'anecdotal data' have been carefully studied to the point that even small details were finetuned to match up well.

About the ease of flying, there are 2 important factors to consider talking about the Spitfire. For one it has a new flight model with improved calculations reducing instability and roll reaction when applying rudder and second it is designed with static neutral stability which means the pilot has little trim workload and can manouvre well with small stick deflections. Assuming you have your pitch response set up with a nonlinear curve this provides you with very good pitch precision.

Edited July 10, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Finkeren]

Why would you try an scissor fight a 190 in an early Mk Spit ? That's a contest you simply couldn't win.

I agree, I was forced into it by a clearly superior pilot.

[Herne]

 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZCNQ29OaCioC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=one+does+not+fly+a+spitfire,+you+strap+it+on+your+back&source=bl&ots=_xgPyNIhjr&sig=5tSpurp9E3q_OLXttgkujSOyzF4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWsJGCxP7UAhXHY1AKHSoNBioQ6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=one%20does%20not%20fly%20a%20spitfire%2C%20you%20strap%20it%20on%20your%20back&f=false

 

 

 

 

If the spit seems easy to fly, it's because it was !

[54th_Glitter_]

 Feelings perfectly explained!

[Wolfstriked]

I can't guess, because I never even set in a real Spitfire... but from all of the texts I can read about it ( various models ), I can only say that I like, overall, the feel of this Spitfire Vb, the integration in the IL2 Game, etc..., but I think some of it's unfamous characteristics aren't being replicated, namely:

 

.) the carefull handling on ground, due to the CoG relative to the main gear, easily tricking the pilots if brakes were used without care...  In the IL2 model, I can even use full brake immediately after touching down in three wheel... down to a full stop, without fearing a prop strike...

 

.) the absence of rolling moment due to torque at a wide range of speeds and power settings. I would expect that a takeoff at max boost would make the rolling ( not only yawing ) tendency evident ?  Also inflight, sudden bursts of power, or cuts, do not appear to have much of an effect in rolling the aircraft, due to engine/prop torque...

 

.) the authority of the tail surfaces ( this one is characteristic, imho, of all fighters in il2 Battle of..). I can use the rudder to steer the Spitfire, specially in the absence of significant winds on ground, using just the rudder. It should rely a lot more on differential braking, I believe... particularly on a non steerable ( daisy ) tailwheel taildragger...

 

.) Finally a side note on something I found, by chance, on one of the vlights I did yesterday...

 

While I was trying to "measure" the prop effects at max takeoff power, which I find tame ( imho ) , on one occasion I ended up taking of from the grass, and was surprised to find out that after firewalling the throttle, I didn't have to use any rudder at all, and even less aileron, to maintain the aircraft flying straight until rotation speed ( ? ). I was so astonished that I immediately repeated the test starting from the runway. This was in a Quick Mission, and I checked "simplified FM" was not ticked!  ( * )

 

Might it be that ground physics are way relaxed when operating outside of runways / on grass ? I wonder if this was always the case since the only situations I ground handle my aircraft, in IL2 and IRL, out of the runways happen when I land out, in emergency...

 

( * ) it was late, and I was sleepy - will have to repeat / reproduce further...

Sorry but is there really a simplified FM option?I checked everywhere and cant find this.