Smoking Spitfires

[Mmaruda]

Ok, so I know everyone is in love with the new kid on block and what a machine it is! However, sometimes you just have fly for Ze Germans and this is one tough nut to crack.

 

So any tips for dealing with the "I turn on a dime, but I can also climb with you" nonsense?

 

So far I have managed to come to the following conclusions:

 

- the 190 A5 is the best weapon of choice against the British plague, but since it's a 190 you need to fly it smart, the A3 also can do the job, but it kind of lacks in the power department, so steeper climbs are not advised and if you stall, it's game over.

- it also seems like the F-4 can be quite competitive to the Spit and it allows for a slightly more reckless approach

- the name of the game is separate, separate and separate, don't get into a knife fight with the Spit, or you will get an Iron Cross... posthumously

- a gentle ascending spiral seems like the best way to go, but it requires a lot of patience and precision and that is tricky, since you will have to look behind you almost all the time

- in general, I found that the goal is to climb and use power advantage as well as better engine durability to either make the Spit stall, overheat the motor or get bored with the pursuit, at which point we get the energy advantage and can swoop down for a strike (the window is kind of narrow though)

 

Things that might work, but seem very risky:

- do a barrel roll! if you get him on your six, you have the roll rate advantage so rolling scissors might be a good idea, but more realistically, your best hope is probably to roll all the time when he's shooting until he wastes all his ammo

- deploy flaps to get some extra turning angle; now this is something I haven't tried yet, but I am exhausted after all them dogfighting shenanigans, however some German pilots from BoB mentioned this as a viable tactic - something like 20 degrees might work, but we are talking Stall City limits here.

- going vertical: in theory, the Spit had the horizontal turn advantage, but the 109 is supposed to be more agile in the vertical plane - all my attempts have been a failure so far, but I am not a very precise pilot

 

This is what I have managed to come up with after around 2h of testing and it's not like discovered anything ground-breaking here, again, dogfights are not my strong point. My conclusion here is that 1CGS introduced a plane that has nearly zero flaws and seem completely in line with what I have read and seen on documentaries. Well, maybe except stability when firing - it's pretty stable, while I have read reports that it wasn't all that pretty, in BoB the Hurricane was supposedly the more stable gun platform, but at the same time the Hispanos are all over the place when firing and the 303s don't do much damage (I can't claim expertise here, so feel free to correct me). At the same time, compared to the old IL-2 1946, the Spit is a whole different story. While the instability while firing was more pronounced in the old title, with significant shaking on each trigger pull, the whole thing was hardly the joy to fly we can experience in BOx - it was slow and seemed almost sluggish and it gave a feeling being seriously underpowered (except the MK XIV from the mods - that was a beast). I actually expected that in BOx, it will be similar, but was I ever wrong! It seems like I was lied to all these years. 

 

Anyhow, if you guys have some other tips about dealing with the Spitfire, please share. I am sure these will be very useful especially for online shenanigans.

 

Last but not least, if you ever get your sights on the ellipse-winged monster, it's worth to remember the ultimate boss fight pro-tip:

Edited July 7, 2017 by Mmaruda

[TCW_SixFour619]

I too came up short in 2 hours of Spitfire Spam fest. Very nimble. Had to disengage most of the time. The cannons are real thumpers too.

[unreasonable]

Interesting thoughts, only one line I would question:

 

"- going vertical: in theory, the Spit had the horizontal turn advantage, but the 109 is supposed to be more agile in the vertical plane - all my attempts have been a failure so far, but I am not a very precise pilot"

 

I am not sure why you think that should be true - or what "agile" in this sense means.  My reading of BoB accounts of Spitfire vs 109 duels suggest that the Spitfire was superior - or at least could be used in a superior way - in vertical aerobatics. After all, a loop is really just a turn with gravity pointing in a different direction.  What the 109s perhaps could do is more of a diving hit and run attack: but that is perhaps as much a tactical choice as a reflection of any great difference in speed or acceleration, the 109s having a height advantage more often than not. 

 

Really I would think that the answer is obvious as you point out: if you think that the opposing Spitfire has a significant advantage in dog-fighting: do not dog-fight, or if you do, do it in teams.  Use the Wildcat vs Zero approach. If you are on your own with a height advantage make one pass and then separate.

 

TBH I am not sure that it is so very different from fighting a Yak - except of course that the Spitfire is so pretty that you feel bad about shooting at it.

[Finkeren]

On the defensive the Fw 190 is in a far better position than the 109. The Spit's less than impressive roll rate means you can frustrate him long enough to get to a point where you can run away safely.

 

With only wing mounted guns and just 5-6 seconds of fire before he is reduced to useless spread-out .303 pea shooters a smart Spitfire pilot won't attempt long distance hail Mary shots, so you really don't have to put much distance between you before running becomes a safe option.

 

I have not yet had a chance to properly test the Spit, but I simply can't believe, that the Spit outclimbs a 109 F4/G2/G4 on combat power. I really need some hard numbers to back up this claim.

 

A co-energy situation against a Spit is going to be tough in almost any case. The answer must be to not engage in combat without an advantage. Both the Fw 190 and most Bf 109s are fast enough to pick their battles, so that is what they should do.

[Thad]

"except of course that the Spitfire is so pretty that you feel bad about shooting at it."

 

Yea, right... that will keep people from shooting at it.

[Mmaruda]

 

 

I am not sure why you think that should be true - or what "agile" in this sense means. My reading of BoB accounts of Spitfire vs 109 duels suggest that the Spitfire was superior - or at least could be used in a superior way - in vertical aerobatics.

 

I really don't know, it's something that I have read a long time ago and it did work well in 1946. Maybe it has something to do with the smaller wings on the 109 that it allows it to dive a bit faster and climb as well (less air drag?). Again, I may be wrong and it may be just theoretical, I can't really quote sources, something I read on a forum years ago with some pilot accounts etc. Anyway, it really doesn't work here - the Spit  has enough power to climb with a 109 and diving is not a problem for it as well as inverted flight even (unless you take too long). This is why I put this in the "might work" section - some theoretical blabber and ancient forum posts referring to the 1946 days mention it, but... I can't make it work. Feel free to call BS, but again, I am no aerobatics master, maybe someone who is can make it stick.

 

 

 

If you are on your own with a height advantage make one pass and then separate.

 

For me this is really the problem, that beast has so much ponies under the hood, separating ain't an easy task.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

To throw a couple points into the ring about the .303's, I've been using them first to chip away at my opponent, the ammo is pretty plentiful and they work great for knocking pieces off of aircraft/messing with the engine. Once the enemy's plane is smoking/limping I use the extra advantage to slide in with the cannon in quick bursts for the kill shot or when I am absolutely certain of a hit. The .303's are also great for chipping away at the moral of the other pilot. With all of that being said I've only tested on ai ace's (all 109/190 varients) and can handily drop 3 with cannon and .303 to spare, haven't tried against more than that yet.

 

Haven't flown against her yet but man can the Spit pull lead, it's insane how well she handles.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Y-29.Sulaco

[Finkeren]

To throw a couple points into the ring about the .303's, I've been using them first to chip away at my opponent, the ammo is pretty plentiful and they work great for knocking pieces off of aircraft/messing with the engine. Once the enemy's plane is smoking/limping I use the extra advantage to slide in with the cannon in quick bursts for the kill shot or when I am absolutely certain of a hit. The .303's are also great for chipping away at the moral of the other pilot. With all of that being said I've only tested on ai ace's (all 109/190 varients) and can handily drop 3 with cannon and .303 to spare, haven't tried against more than that yet.

This might work against AI, but in MP you very often only get 1 or 2 chances at the target, and in that case "chipping away" at the enemy isn't gonna land you a kill.

 

For MP I consider the Spit practically useless against fighters as soon as the HS cannon run dry.

 

If the Brownings were placed differently, I would feel differently about them. I excpect the .30cals on the P-39 to be way more effective, because they are placed together in pairs.

[deleted@31403]

To throw a couple points into the ring about the .303's, I've been using them first to chip away at my opponent, the ammo is pretty plentiful and they work great for knocking pieces off of aircraft/messing with the engine. Once the enemy's plane is smoking/limping I use the extra advantage to slide in with the cannon in quick bursts for the kill shot or when I am absolutely certain of a hit. The .303's are also great for chipping away at the moral of the other pilot. With all of that being said I've only tested on ai ace's (all 109/190 varients) and can handily drop 3 with cannon and .303 to spare, haven't tried against more than that yet.

 

Haven't flown against her yet but man can the Spit pull lead, it's insane how well she handles.

 

Yes with a two stage trigger I also just use the 303's when doing a lead shot in a turn. They do make a flyer nervous hearing the pings on their plane. Hispano's come to play when a money shot is there.

[vincini]

I agree with Fink for the most part. My experience with the Spit's .303s is that they are like a slow poison. Sure they hit your wing or tail and they dont cause much structural damage. But the lil buggers are like a shotgun blast, they almost always hit the engine bay and cause your engine to die or fuel leaks everywhere, which in almost all online servers where everyone goes out with half a tank, will result in an emergency landing. The Spit is going to give many people headaches on axis side. But i think shes good for the player balance...hopefully.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Good point Fink, everything goes out the window when flying against a human pilot, I imagine I'd be turning for home if the Hispano's we're empty.

[Barnacles]

Just speculating, but might it be better to take a g model 109 if you are likely to encounter spitfires? The f model's better maneuverability is only useful if you get in a dogfight, which, although winnable with rolling scissors etc, is something you'd want to avoid if possible.

[Finkeren]

There's a reason why the trend in British fighter design went in the direction of 4 wing mounted Hispanos (Hurricane, Typhoon, Tempest, some Spits) with most designs completely dropping the .303 (on the Spit this was harder because having 4 cannons degraded its performance too much)

 

The high speeds of WW2 air combat meant, that "wearing down" your opponent with multiple salvos were completely impractical. You had to close the deal in that one second you had on the target, and three different solutions became dominant:

 

1. 2-4 20mm cannon with high rate of fire

 

2. Multiple heavy machineguns grouped together

 

3. A single, very powerful autocannon 30mm or larger that could kill a fighter with a single hit.

Just speculating, but might it be better to take a g model 109 if you are likely to encounter spitfires? The f model's better maneuverability is only useful if you get in a dogfight, which, although winnable with rolling scissors etc, is something you'd want to avoid if possible.

I would take the Fw 190 over a 109 against Spits, butof the 109s the Gs will likely be a bit better I think.

[CIA_Yankee_]

A co-energy situation against a Spit is going to be tough in almost any case. The answer must be to not engage in combat without an advantage. Both the Fw 190 and most Bf 109s are fast enough to pick their battles, so that is what they should do.

 

This, pretty much.

 

The Spitfire IS an excellent fighter. It didn't get its sterling reputation out of pure wishful thinking from the British masses. But the 109 and 190s that are contemporary to the BoK (when we should realistically be allowed to fly the Spit on the eastern front) definitely perform better... but that's mostly when it comes to speed.

 

So if you don't actually use that speed to get away, stay alive, and set up another pass, then you can expect to run into all sorts of problems. The Spit is a superb turner, does climb very well, and is a high performer no matter how you look at it. Sure, the 190 definitely outclassed the Spit Vb, and I think this is reflected in this sim... but that's because LW pilots actually cared about staying alive and focused on Boom and Zoom, which is the smart maneuver. So long as you stick to that, you can dictate the terms of engagement and nullify the Spit's advantages.

 

Of course, one caveat is that we're on the eastern front: a theater where low altitude CAS was the norm, which does play to the Spits favour and minimizes the ability of the 109s and 190s to just cruise at high altitude and pounce on roaming fighters.

[Barnacles]

In CloD the stuka out turns them. Time to get my machine gun pods!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

To throw a couple points into the ring about the .303's, I've been using them first to chip away at my opponent, the ammo is pretty plentiful and they work great for knocking pieces off of aircraft/messing with the engine. Once the enemy's plane is smoking/limping I use the extra advantage to slide in with the cannon in quick bursts for the kill shot or when I am absolutely certain of a hit. The .303's are also great for chipping away at the moral of the other pilot. With all of that being said I've only tested on ai ace's (all 109/190 varients) and can handily drop 3 with cannon and .303 to spare, haven't tried against more than that yet.

 

Haven't flown against her yet but man can the Spit pull lead, it's insane how well she handles.

This is becoming my technique as well. I don't have a good handle on the Spit yet but it seems she will do OK against my former employer. Having fun nonetheless and learning some of her quirks and strengths.

 

I've only flown her in SP and have done well. Those Hispano's WOW! As I've said, I havent mastered her yet by any strecth BUT

 

 it is particularly exciting people are finding her competitive even online.

Edited July 7, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[CIA_Yankee_]

In CloD the stuka out turns them. Time to get my machine gun pods!

 

I have no idea if that's realistic, but to be fair we can say the same of biplanes. They could outturn 109s and Spits with ease. But they were obsolete, because pilots would know to just energy fight them and avoid turning fights. Make passes, keep up your E, and dictate the fight to your leisure.

 

The difference, of course, is that here the Spit is also a high performance fighter on top of being an excellent dogfighter, even more so than the Yak (except the 1b, perhaps). So LW fighters need to exercise strict discipline, because they can't afford to take the risks they would normally take against other VVS birds, as it doesn't take much for them to slide within the Spit's envelope and get in serious trouble.

 

In reality, to be honest, little has changed in the LW vs VVS dynamic. LW still has the speed and high altitude performance edge, while the VVS has the low altitude and maneuvering edge. The only difference is now the gap is narrower.

 

At least, that's my 2 cents.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

"except of course that the Spitfire is so pretty that you feel bad about shooting at it."

 

Yea, right... that will keep people from shooting at it.

I definitely do NOT suffer from this problem. I think it is most beautiful while venting pretty streams of smoke and liquid while sporting multiple perforations. It's like a work of art!

[Jaws2002]

This might work against AI, but in MP you very often only get 1 or 2 chances at the target, and in that case "chipping away" at the enemy isn't gonna land you a kill.

 

For MP I consider the Spit practically useless against fighters as soon as the HS cannon run dry.

 

If the Brownings were placed differently, I would feel differently about them. I excpect the .30cals on the P-39 to be way more effective, because they are placed together in pairs.

 

 

 This is the problem. The Spitfire has a very bad weapons arrangement. Even in CLOD, when you jump from Spitfire to Hurricane, you immediately see how much better the concentrated weapons arrangement in the Hurricane actually is.

  The problem is that those .303 Brownings are way too far apart. You have to shoot at convergence and you have a very small area where the guns hit close enough to the center line to work.

   If you could set convergence for each pair individually, then you could have the .303 guns to converge at close range and use them only when you are at that range. But we can't, so You have to set convergence for the bread and butter of your firepower and that's the pair of 20mm cannons.

[Willy__]

 

 

In CloD the stuka out turns them. Time to get my machine gun pods!

 

In CLOD we have the B2 instead of the D3, they are a bit different.... 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Flown against them in a Focke Wulf today. Flew at 5km, dove, shot, seperate, back up. Stabilizer 2 dashes to the back, so that I could pull proper lead.

 

Kept my awareness and altitude up, don't let them in above me. If it did happen, dove early enough, rolled right and pulled, rolled left and pulled, leveled out and seperated. Spitfires cannot follow that maneuver at high speed, and we can use it in a Messerschmitt as well. They couldn't get me once.

 

 

I did fly the Spit as well, and if someone attacks from above I guess the best way is to dodge and shoot them in the back. I just love the Hispanos, they're fast brutal and doing quick work of anything!

Edited July 7, 2017 by 1CAG_Fenris_Wolf

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Maybe just design. Didn't have to be a conscious descision. Later fixed due to pilot reports, what they would like, etc. Went like this with many planes on all sides.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

Fw 190 is the best weapon against the English plague. Bearing and speed are the best qualities. Om the update 2.012 that should reduce the rolling of Russian aircraft, Fw190 will be a true butcher

Edited July 8, 2017 by JAGER_Kampf

[Jaws2002]

 They fixed the gun positioning in later spitfires? I didn't know that part. 

 

That only changed with the "E wing", when they replaced the .303's with .50 cal. machine guns.

 

I think the position of the guns was lack of experience in combat aircraft, by the Supermarine company, when the Spitfire was turned into a fighter from a race plane.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Jaws2002

[CIA_Yankee_]

Does anyone know why the brilliant (no sarcasm) British engineers did this? There must be a trade off involved, perhaps G-loading on a high surface area wing? No idea. 

 

Yes, actually: the wing has very little real estate, being so thin. This forced the designers to space the brownings in a sub-optimal configuration. They would have preffered something like the hurricane, but the wing just didn't have the room.

 

So when they put in the cannons, they took out the 2 inboard MGs in each wings (which were clustered together) and replaced them with the cannon, and that left the outboard MGs, which are spread out.

 

In short, it's a compromise required by the unique wing design. All in all, it was worth it.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Also in the original design was an effort to ensure that the .303s were entirely enclosed in the wing. No gun barrels were to stick out from the wing in any way. The Hurricane achieved this but with a much thicker wing while the Spitfire was built like a raceplane with guns having a thin wing and a lot of time and effort devoted to ensuring that it was fast.

[Royal_Flight]

If I remember correctly, the reason for the positioning of the .303s on the A wing variant was that the guns had to go in on their sides, due to the thinness of the wing.

 

Interestingly, the C wing introduced later (the 'universal wing') could carry four Brownings as well but they were grouped differently, with the outer two in the positions they are on our mkVb and the inner two next to each other.

In practice though by this stage the eight machine-gun armament was obsolescent and not used.

Other Vcs were given two Hispanos in each wing but the added weight resulted in the inner pair often being removed as happened at Malta.

 

The E wing was introduced in '44 and featured a Hispano and a .50cal Browning just inboard of the cannon, so there were less convergence issues and by that point it was recognised that the .303s were well past their best.

[Finkeren]

The E wing would be super-deadly, but since we have no 1944 aircraft...

[Voidhunger]

Just a little question. Zeke will be far more maneuverable (turning radius) then the spit in BOX?

[Finkeren]

Just a little question. Zeke will be far more maneuverable (turning radius) then the spit in BOX?

 

Far more? Not likely.

 

Somewhat more? Yeah probably.

[Gambit21]

Just a little question. Zeke will be far more maneuverable (turning radius) then the spit in BOX?

More maneuverable without a doubt - slower though.

[Thad]

This might work against AI, but in MP you very often only get 1 or 2 chances at the target, and in that case "chipping away" at the enemy isn't gonna land you a kill.

 

For MP I consider the Spit practically useless against fighters as soon as the HS cannon run dry.

 

If the Brownings were placed differently, I would feel differently about them. I excpect the .30cals on the P-39 to be way more effective, because they are placed together in pairs.

"I excpect the .30cals on the P-39 to be way more effective, because they are placed together in pairs."

 

From you lips to the Devs ears.