Why the Lagg-3?

[Uriah]

Why the Lagg-3 as the first Soviet fighter to make for this game?  Was it the most common fighter the Soviets had for the Battle of Stalingrad?  From others I hear it is outclassed by the  bf109 F4. 

[Fifi]

 Was it the most common fighter the Soviets had for the Battle of Stalingrad? 

 

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Why the Lagg-3 as the first Soviet fighter to make for this game?  Was it the most common fighter the Soviets had for the Battle of Stalingrad?  From others I hear it is outclassed by the  bf109 F4. 

 

That's actually quite a good question.  Against any half way decent human or A.I player then the LaGG will struggle unless the circumstances are right or the player has a fatalistic death wish.  I certainly enjoy flying it at the moment and it is lovingly recreated but if other aircraft are available I reckon it will find it'self very much left sitting on the sidelines without a dance partner.  In single player, were at least there is the advantage of not feeling of having been beaten by another human, however one sided the fight, it will require some interesting A.I comrades to help you to survive, or them, against anything other than novice fighter opposition.  It remains to be seen if that is possible or whether the A.I. LaGG's will be swatted out of the skies like flies.  In the on line world, with the exception of some hardy souls, co-operation that will enable survival is in short supply, even if the servers heavily stack the numbers in the LaGG's favour, a lot of them will die unless they are good or excellent or the 109 pilots are just plain rubbish.  My experience tends to suggest that the absolute vast majority will fly the best aircraft available and if it can be flogged to death in unhistorical ways then all to the good, as long as it lasts long enough to win the fight.  So, good question, "Why the LaGG ?" for all it's loveliness it will probably be left in the hanger more often than not,

[Feathered_IV]

The LaGG should outclass the He-111 and Ju-87 handily enough. The trick will be to prowl about for this unsuspecting prey, all while evading the fighter opposition. Don't know about the rest of you, but that is what I call fun.

[pilotpierre]

The LaGG should outclass the He-111 and Ju-87 handily enough. The trick will be to prowl about for this unsuspecting prey, all while evading the fighter opposition. Don't know about the rest of you, but that is what I call fun.

I'm with you there my fine feathered friend.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Other thing is, when the game is published it will have Yak-1 (and La-5) also, so there won't be a huge problem of VVS players being in total disadvantage in multiplayer. And for SP and historical scenarios, I think LaGG is more important in the timeframe we have. To my understanding almost all of about 6500 LaGG-3s produced were made before the end of 1942, being (mostly) replaced by other types during 1943.

 

 

 Was it the most common fighter the Soviets had for the Battle of Stalingrad?

 

So I would say yes, this is the reason.

 

Disclaimer: All the statements above are "to my understanding" only, I can't check these from any truly reliable sources now.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

MP will be a La-5 parade, make no mistakes. It's the only one that has it's own clear advantage over ze Germans with a better armament, better turner and good climb.

 

I don't see why not, unless MP will feature Yaks & LaGGs "mandatory slots" for each setting.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

MP will be a La-5 parade, make no mistakes. It's the only one that has it's own clear advantage over ze Germans with a better armament, better turner and good climb.

 

I don't see why not, unless MP will feature Yaks & LaGGs "mandatory slots" for each setting.

 

You have to pay good money to get La-5... But yes, if I had to guess, I would say that it would go something like 6:3:1 to La-5, Yak-1 and LaGG-3. There will always be those who for some reason or the other want to fly other than the obvious "best" type too.

[Matt]

I think it's more of a problem with people thinking that the LaGG-3 is the counter of the Bf-109 F-4 in BoS, just because they both got added first. I don't see it as such.

 

 

It's the only one that has it's own clear advantage over ze Germans with a better armament, better turner and good climb.

Excluding armament (which should still be enough against the 109 atleast), the Yak-1 will be about as capable in those areas as the La-5. Maybe even better in some.

 

I guess those people who expect the La-5 to be the most or only popular Soviet fighter will be surprised. I'm counting more on the Yak-1 for now.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

I guess those people who expect the La-5 to be the most or only popular Soviet fighter will be surprised. I'm counting more on the Yak-1 for now.

 

Let's hope so

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

The LaGG should outclass the He-111 and Ju-87 handily enough. The trick will be to prowl about for this unsuspecting prey, all while evading the fighter opposition. Don't know about the rest of you, but that is what I call fun.

yes, I love under-dog planes. The reason I stay Red on CLOD.

[303_Kwiatek]

Early La5 production didn't make any wonderfull fighter.  LA5 was still slowier then 109 F or G, had worse climb rate and worse turn rate

 

La5 serial performance:

 

Sea level speed:  509/531 ( with boost)

Max speed - 580 at 6.2 km

Climb time to 5 km - 6 min

Turn time at 1000 m -  22.6 sec

 

 

Well looking at performacne of Yak-1 from 42 it also nothing special. Slowier and worse climber then 109 - only turn rate at lower alts is comparable with 109s.  Only reduced take off wieght Yak-1  ( without oxygen instalation and other equimpent) had more similar peformacne to 109 at low alts and better turn rate.

 

 

So La5 was faster then Yak-1, had comparable climb rate but worse turn rate.

 

So 109 F-4 at 1.42 Ata had better allround performacne ( speed, climb, turn rate) that all these 3 type of VVS fighters from these peroid.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Kwiatek

[Sternjaeger]

I think a lot will also depend on the numbers of players and tactics used more than just aircraft performance: if you know your aircraft is inferior, you will think twice before barging in in a dogfight. 

 

It will be interesting, and even if I agree that most people will try and go for the best performing aircraft, I think it will still make for an interesting experience. In the end of the day Stalingrad is the only scenery we got at the moment.. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[bivalov]

if write very fast, by memory, mainly during autumn-winter BOS were lot of yak-1 with high gargrot and PF engine + some number of yaks-1b, "almost" yaks-1b before 110-111 series, several light yaks-1 of 96 series...

 

some amount of yaks-7b with high gargrot and PF engine, before ie summer and with PA, but in total 7s were not really so much as 1s, but need to research this question better...

 

and were lot of early series of la-5 + some number of late series of la-5 and some laggs of 28-33 series plus some laggs of 34 series with sh-37...

 

so, why lagg? dont know exactly, here could be couple of reasons, for example lagg it's example of soviet aviation and its capabilities at mid'42, how said LOFT if i'm not mistaken, and could be used in summer and even spring with m-105PA, in the future, etc...

 

Early La5 production didn't make any wonderfull fighter.  LA5 was still slowier then 109 F or G, had worse climb rate and worse turn rate

 

La5 serial performance:

 

Sea level speed:  509/531 ( with boost)

Max speed - 580 at 6.2 km

Climb time to 5 km - 6 min

Turn time at 1000 m -  22.6 sec

yep, something like this for early series of la-5, before 9 series, after much better and very close with any opponents at this period...

[Emgy]

This Yefim Gordon book http://www.scribd.com/doc/152121579/Soviet-Combat-Aircraft-of-the-Second-World-War has a data table for the Yaks, scan is here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/p-40-vs-yak-1-vs-hurricane-17485-2.html#post473657

 

It's hard to say which Yak-1/PF version we'll get, the variant with 5.6 min climb to 5km might be representative of a very late series razorback Yak-1 even if we get one with 2x7.62.

 

With all the different factories having differing standards, it can be difficult to navigate Russian plane variants... (to this day, KnAAPO Su-27/30 can very different to the Irkut variants...)

 

And of course this book is from 1998 so 777 may have better, recently unclassified data.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Calvamos

[LLv44_Mprhead]

So 109 F-4 at 1.42 Ata had better allround performacne ( speed, climb, turn rate) that all these 3 type of VVS fighters from these peroid.

 

This is true, but with Yak-1 and La-5 difference is not quite so big. So even if those don't have as good overall performance as 109 and 190, they are close enough to have a fighting chance.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

With all the different factories having differing standards, it can be difficult to navigate Russian plane variants...

 

Not to mention the armament variants that often were field managed. Am I right ?

Edited December 12, 2013 by [JG2]The_Blackadder

[Finkeren]

As I read the question, you're asking; Why make the LaGG as the first among the VVS planes? This might simply be a question of convenience. Maybe it was the first plane that was properly researched and documented, so modelling could begin? Maybe some guy among the devs was just really excited about the LaGG and went to work on that plane first? Maybe it was because some of the modelling work could be carried over into making the La-5, so it was convenient to have the LaGG ready first? Or maybe it was just a complete coincidence?

 

If your question is; Why make the LaGG at all? Then I have no patience for you and advise you to read a book about the air war on the Eastern Front.

[Scarecrow]

It's better than an I16.

[bivalov]

This Yefim Gordon book [url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/152121579/Soviet-Combat-Aircraft-of-the-Second-World-War]http://www.scribd.com/doc/152121579/Soviet-Combat-Aircraft-of-the-Second-World-

 

And of course this book is from 1998 so 777 may have better, recently unclassified data.

Gordon it's mainly just compilation of mainly old russian sources, for concrete info about stalingrad at autumn-winter look at this and this... ie i'm here exactly like Gordon, gives not my information, if i'm not mistaken about Yefim's work in total...

Edited December 12, 2013 by MK.Bivalov

[Emgy]

Not to mention the armament variants that often were field managed. Am I right ?

Yes and I'm looking forward to this, I believe the LaGG-3 37mm variant and the 109 gun pod probably? shows us they can "plug n' play" weapons of different weight, position and recoil characteristics.

So with any luck we will be able to try a P-40 with only two .50cals, Hurricane with Russian 20 & 12.7mm (poor Stukas) etc.

 

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part2.htm

Gordon it's mainly just compilation of mainly old russian sources, for concrete info about stalingrad at autumn-winter look at this and this... ie i'm here exactly like Gordon, gives not my information, if i'm not mistaken about Yefim's work in total...

Thanks, very interesting info. I have read that thread before but not recently, so I have not seen your posts before. Btw is there anyone on the Russian forums who is testing in-game plane data?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Calvamos

[LLv44_Mprhead]

There was a good point from andyw248 in other thread about this. It might also help devs to make sure that LaGG-3 get's enough flight time to make sure possible problems are noticed (if we assume that when Yak-1 comes, most will start flying it.)

[RedEye_Jeroll]

I whant i16 24 

 

Bf g2 no chance! 

[bivalov]

Thanks, very interesting info. I have read that thread before but not recently, so I have not seen your posts before.

no problem, and this is really luck for us what author at forum and will answering free as he can, although he writes and on famous russian historical forums too, but it's another deal, of course...

 

and i just doing what must doing in this conditions... sadly what not all players of this REALISTIC sim understand our efforts, especially, at russian part (look at "lot of comments", lol), but looks like and here sometimes...

 

Btw is there anyone on the Russian forums who is testing in-game plane data?

what you mean, comments of alpha-testers of game? no, only at special part of forum, of course, or between friends... personally i cant remember anything what you cant know here...

 

if you mean just discussion about performances, weapon etc, well, sadly but i know only several players including ME, who doing this sometimes like "white crows"... you have "silver thing", right? well, read post of Gavrick, and i think at this moment it's correct and in game all not so bad, most likely, correct in total, because developers have lot of original documents or originals of documents...

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

as a representative for a squad who loves Crap planes due to the additional challenge, I can assure you that we will fly the Lagg very frequently... most often in packs of 8+...

[SKG51_robtek]

I whant i16 24 

 

Bf g2 no chance! 

If this sim is realistic, the i16 superiorty is a thing of the past :biggrin:

[bivalov]

I whant i16 24 

you mean type with 2 shvak in wings? if i'm not mistaken, it's type 28 (m-62 + 2 shkas and 2 shvak), type 24 it's m-62 + 4 shkas... and in history of war we have several examples when even fw 190 were opponents for i-153/i-16 or only i-16, for example, i read memoirs of pilot who fought at i-16 against fw 190 in 44, at leningrad front (but exactly here it's can be finnish type, of course)...

 

sorry for offtop...

 

and what good with lagg anyway, with s29 we have s34 with sh-37, which fought in BOS some time, with some results and it's facts... BOOM...

[=RvE=Windmills]

http://russianammo.org/pns37.jpg

 

Only reason I need.

[BeastyBaiter]

For pure fighter vs fighter, the LaGG-3 is inferior to the Bf-109F4. But let me ask you this, if you want to kill a column of tanks which would you prefer? A Bf-109F4 with a single 250kg bomb or a LaGG-3 with a 37mm cannon and 6x RS-82 rockets? What if you're tasked with intercepting a flight of medium bombers? In both cases, suddenly the quicker, nimbler Bf-109 is a lot less appealing. For the pure fighter vs fighter stuff, I see the Yak-1 being the primary soviet bird while the LaGG is the more popular light attack and bomber interceptor.

 

Anyways, as far as I know the LaGG-3 was the primary VVS fighter in the area at the time, so it makes sense for it to be the first fighter included. The IL-2 probably would have made more sense to be the first plane, but I suppose it wasn't ready yet.

[rockhpi]

Are folks putting too much faith in the Yak-1?  I mean, it was better than the LaGG, but my impression is that they were still inferior to the 109.  

[Matt]

Depends a lot on the situation.
 

I think the 109 F-4 with 20mm gunpods would be good enough against the Pe-2. Of course if you only look at the three soviet fighters, it might be the best choice for attacking He-111, if there are actually many flying around (and talking about MP, that's a bit doubtful).

 

Also the 109 will get 4x 50kg load, which should be good for a few tanks. Still, with the Il-2 and Pe-2 avaliable, the LaGG-3 would not be my primary choice for attacking ground targets either. I tried strafing things in the LaGG and find it quite tricky with the cannon and it would only have 20 rounds. The Yak-1 will also get rockets.

 

 

Are folks putting too much faith in the Yak-1?  I mean, it was better than the LaGG, but my impression is that they were still inferior to the 109.

All Soviet fighters of that time were inferior to the 109. So it comes down which is the least inferior of the Soviet fighters against the 109 and i would count more on the Yak-1 than on the La-5.

 

But we'll see in a few months.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Matt

[bivalov]

guys, pls, keep in mind then you try to talk about what planes can, rockets on lagg-3 and yak-1, and VYA for laggs it's very, very questionably or just good "what if", until developers not explain their decision with documents... at end'42 rockets could be only on some early series of planes, if has wiring in wings etc, or on not competitive planes like i-153, i-16, mig-3, hurri or even p-40... with VYA this most likely "what if" or ability to install...

 

believe me, i'm not just blahblahblah... , but this is only my opinion, of course...

 

All Soviet fighters of that time were inferior to the 109.

no, it's exactly la-5 9-10 series, plus 22 yaks-1 of 96 series ie lighter by 160 kg etc, i mean, i hope what these yaks-1 will be in game, other planes of course very inferior to 109/190 in TOTAL...

[Matt]

Yeah well, you can already see the mods for the LaGG-3 in the early access so unless they decide to get rid of all those, we will have access to them in BoS. So it's not very very questionable that we'll get them. We already have a "what if" scenario with the Fw 190.

 

And we'll get the Yak-1 69 series from everything i've read so far.

 

Unsure about the La-5 of course, not even sure if the devs have already decided which series to model in BoS.

[bivalov]

Yeah well, you can already see the mods for the LaGG-3 in the early access so unless they decide to get rid of all those, we will have access to them in BoS. So it's not very very questionable that we'll get them. We already have a "what if" scenario with the Fw 190.

i mean - very very questionable that absolutely historically correct, what we already have this, of course...

 

And we'll get the Yak-1 69 series from everything i've read so far.

yes, i just guessing about 96 series, because half of these planes were ONLY lighter than serial yaks with PF at 160 kg, and it's all changes...

 

Unsure about the La-5 of course, not even sure if the devs have already decided which series to model in BoS.

well, in this case just believe me and my experience in this stuff... although, i can give you clear quote from document, on russian, of course...

 

...not even sure if the devs have already decided which series to model in BoS.

me too, but i saw scans from document (in twitter), at photo something like late series... but at main page of site, where profiles of all planes, plane of early series... guess who?

 

 

PS i'm JUST saying here about what "english" community cant know by many reasons, i dont want to look here as "knowboy" or something like this... peace...

[[RG]Flanker1985]

 Well, we can certainly wait for the release of LaGG-3 series 35 and plus.

If Bf-109F2 was the first to be released on the Axis side, it will probably be more fair.

[bivalov]

Well, we can certainly wait for the release of LaGG-3 series 35 and plus.

If Bf-109F2 was the first to be released on the Axis side, it will probably be more fair.

yep, 35 or +/- series, like i wrote information from N.Egorov, if late series - with retractable tailwheel and slats, for example, several planes of s29 really received slats, but in game plane without slats...

 

i want f-2 too, but most likely it's can be emil for romanian air force, maybe jabo, or i mistaken...

[Kurfurst]

If Bf-109F2 was the first to be released on the Axis side, it will probably be more fair.

 

Problem is that if we stick to the Stalingrad / Fall Blau scenario, it seems that the Bf 109F-2s had no real play in it. They were already disappearing from first line service (having been introduced into service 1,5 year earlier), giving place to the rapidly increasing numbers of 109G. As of 1st August 1942, practically all of them were with JG 51, stationed West of the Kurst area, with Army Group center, ie.

 

I./JG1 Jever NW Germany 11 Bf 109F-2 I./JG5 Frieres   8 Bf 109F-2 Stab/JG51 Smolensk USSR, AG Center 3 Bf 109F-2 I./JG51 Tuleblja   25 Bf 109F-2 II./JG51 Orel-Nord USSR, AG Center 36 Bf 109F-2 III./JG51 Dugino   38 Bf 109F-2 IV./JG51 Dugino   38 Bf 109F-2 15./JG51 Orel USSR, AG Center 11 Bf 109F-2

 

Total 170 F-2s, but hundreds of kilometers away.

 

F-4s were the most numerous at the time, but not much more than F-2 and G-2, and many of the F-4s were deployed at the time elsewhere (the MTO, mainly).

 

I./JG1 Jever NW Germany 1 Bf 109F-4 III./JG3 Frolow   30 Bf 109F-4 I./JG4 Mizil Rumania 6 Bf 109F-4 Stab/JG5 Petsamo Finland 2 Bf 109F-4 II./JG5 Petsamo Finland 32 Bf 109F-4 III./JG5 Petsamo / Kirkenes Finland 2 Bf 109F-4 Stab/JG52 Rostow   4 Bf 109F-4 II./JG53 Comiso Sicily 2 Bf 109F-4 I./JG54 Krasnowardeisk / Petäjärvi FIN   15 Bf 109F-4       94 0 Stab/JG3 Frolow   5 Bf 109F-4 trop I./JG3 Frolow   32 Bf 109F-4 trop II./JG3 Frolow   30 Bf 109F-4 trop Stab/JG27 Mumin Busak North Africa 2 Bf 109F-4 trop Jagdkommando 27     0 Bf 109F-4 trop I./JG27 Quotaifiya North Africa 24 Bf 109F-4 trop II./JG27 Quotaifiya North Africa 24 Bf 109F-4 trop III./JG27 Haggag-el-Quasaba North Africa 24 Bf 109F-4 trop Stab/JG53 Comiso North Africa 2 Bf 109F-4 trop III./JG53 Haggag-el-Quasaba North Africa 21 Bf 109F-4 trop       164 0 I./JG1 Jever NW Germany 2 Bf 109F-4/Z II./JG1 Woensdrecht Netherlands 4 Bf 109F-4/Z Stab/JG53 Comiso Sicily 1 Bf 109F-4/Z II./JG53 Comiso Sicily 22 Bf 109F-4/Z       29 0 I./JG1 Jever NW Germany 1 Bf 109F-8

 

 

The Bf 109G-2 has been just introduced, and was equipping the famous JG 52, which itself concentrated in centre of the German advance towards Stalingrad and the Caucasus, near the Rostov Area, supporting the attacking Army Group South.

 

11./JG2 Tricqueville France 0 Bf 109G-2 II./JG3 Frolow   0 Bf 109G-2 Stab/JG52 Rostow   0 Bf 109G-2 I./JG52 Rostov IV   40 Bf 109G-2 II./JG52 Mariupol   5 Bf 109G-2 III./JG52 Malaja Orlowka   33 Bf 109G-2 15./JG52 Rostow   9 Bf 109G-2 I./JG53 Frolow   37 Bf 109G-2 Stab/JG54 ???   0 Bf 109G-2 I./JG54 Krasnowardeisk / Petäjärvi FIN Finland 39 Bf 109G-2

 

Total 109G-2s (including elsewhere) amounted to thus 163 planes.

 

Of course the units moved and re-equipped in the next half year, but in practice that meant that they moved fairly quickly towards having G-2 and by the end of the year, the G-4 with better radios. As far for Axis Allies, the Hungarian air force had license built Re 2000s but towards the end of the year they got ex-LW F-4s.

 

So IMHO asking for F-2s is not very histrorical in the context of Stalingrad operations, they do not seem to have been engaged in those battles much, if at all.

Edited December 12, 2013 by VO101Kurfurst

[JG4_Sputnik]

Do you only enjoy a plane that is as good or even superior to your enemy`?

 

I have a lot of fun flying  the G.50 online in CloD, its cleverly avoiding unescensary battles and going in for the kill at the right time. Find careless pilots and sneak at them, outnumber your enemy by flying with teammates and so on. Victory is hard earned but tastes twice as good.

 

War isn't fair. Air war is not only shooting down an enemy pilot in a one on one battle - it has so many more facettes to it.

[Fifi]

Do you only enjoy a plane that is as good or even superior to your enemy`?

 

I have a lot of fun flying  the G.50 online in CloD, its cleverly avoiding unescensary battles and going in for the kill at the right time. Find careless pilots and sneak at them, outnumber your enemy by flying with teammates and so on. Victory is hard earned but tastes twice as good.

 

War isn't fair. Air war is not only shooting down an enemy pilot in a one on one battle - it has so many more facettes to it.

 

Just right!

Flying always superior planes is quickly boring. No challenge at all. (at least in virtual flying!...because in RL would probably be a different story with only ONE life   )

We, virtual flying fighters, are very lucky to never pay cash our mistakes.

[bivalov]

Problem is that if we stick to the Stalingrad / Fall Blau scenario, it seems that the Bf 109F-2s had no real play in it.

 

As of 1st August 1942, practically all of them were with JG 51, stationed West of the Kurst area, with Army Group center, ie.

 

Total 170 F-2s, but hundreds of kilometers away.

thx for info, interesting, AND i exactly now found information about f-2s here, although knowed topic and before...

 

looks like Velikie Luki it's really very promising theatre exactly with f-2s, fws, yaks-1b, yaks-9 if i'm not mistaken, and la-5s including lot of late series, how i think...

 

 

btw, you saw scans of russian report about f-2 and f-4? i think, if not mistaken, report has two good confirmations of time limit for 1.42/2600 and 2800 revs, at least...

 

Do you only enjoy a plane that is as good or even superior to your enemy`?

 

I have a lot of fun flying  the G.50 online in CloD, its cleverly avoiding unescensary battles and going in for the kill at the right time. Find careless pilots and sneak at them, outnumber your enemy by flying with teammates and so on. Victory is hard earned but tastes twice as good.

 

War isn't fair. Air war is not only shooting down an enemy pilot in a one on one battle - it has so many more facettes to it.

+1 (although, it's needs of REAL LIFE, i mean if you want to live and win) and in my opinion it's exactly planes like g.50, iar-8x, i-15bis/i-153/i-16 at this period etc... hurri too... so, looks like we can hope for IAR, at least...