The new FM will lead to more kills!

[JG4_Sputnik]

I mainly fly SP at the moment (because RIFT!) and I had so many instances where I've missed my opponent because of the soft yaw controls. 

That moment, when you have to correct your fire for a few degrees to actually hit the enemy but then you still miss because of that missing 5-10%(?) lack of input!

 

So my hope is that I get in less such situations and therefore my shooting and my kills will improve! 8)

 

Familiar experiences?

 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Don't let VR hold you back from multiplayer!?

 

I'm playing expert only servers and am coping fine.

 

As for accuracy increase? I guess we can only speculate, but for the 109, a reduction of rudder induced roll may go some way to improving gunnery. Will have to wait and see.

 

I think there will likely be a period of adjustment required (resulting in poorer gunnery at first) once the new FM is live.

[Herne]

if you use the sharpen option on the graphics settings, it's easier to spot and a little easier to identify targets in VR. The environment doesn't look quite as nice, but MP in VR is some really immersive action.

You should definitely have a go, see how you get on.

[Finkeren]

I for one would welcome such a development  

 

My aim flat out sucks ever since I made the transition from twister stick to pedals.

[BlitzPig_EL]

That's interesting Finkeren, when, long ago in original IL2 I moved to rudder pedals my shooting improved overnight.

[Finkeren]

That's interesting Finkeren, when, long ago in original IL2 I moved to rudder pedals my shooting improved overnight.

 

Yeah for me it was completely reverse. Though things have gotten much better, my yaw control is still very much inferior. Nothing to do with my pedals, they work fine.

 

I guess I'm just naturally bad at coordinating movement. When all my control surfaces was under control with one hand, that was fine. As soon as my feet entered the equation, things went south. It was the same when I was getting my drivers licence, I had a lot of trouble learning to drive stick (I do just fine now) the amount of coordination between hands and feet was apparently too much for my feeble brain.

 

Never could learn to play the drums either. 

[Lusekofte]

It really depends on the pedals, and it does not even means the brand. Cheap ones can be good or they can be really bad. Same goes for twist ruder. They can be smooth or have dead zones and be really bad. 

Then you have the wobbling everyone talks about, increasing rudder sensitivity might increase that problem

[Finkeren]

It really depends on the pedals, and it does not even means the brand. Cheap ones can be good or they can be really bad. Same goes for twist ruder. They can be smooth or have dead zones and be really bad. 

Then you have the wobbling everyone talks about, increasing rudder sensitivity might increase that problem

 

Oh, my problem has nothing to do with wobbling. It's my own delayed response time, which means that trying to use yaw to correct my aim most often does more harm than good.

[Herne]

Oh, my problem has nothing to do with wobbling. It's my own delayed response time, which means that trying to use yaw to correct my aim most often does more harm than good.

 

Are peddles a recent addition for you ? you quickly get used to them.

[Finkeren]

Are peddles a recent addition for you ? you quickly get used to them.

 

2 years now. Things have gotten better, but my aim is still nothing like it used to be.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Finkeren

[Potenz]

Oh, my problem has nothing to do with wobbling. It's my own delayed response time, which means that trying to use yaw to correct my aim most often does more harm than good.

 it's all matter, i been using pedals since 2010 and i can't get back to twist rudder, actually i never liked it, but with time you will get a natural response with your feet, the first time a flew a real plane (Pa-11) instructor asked if it really was my first flight ever, cause i had a really good stick-rudder coordination

[JG4_Sputnik]

Hmm, seems then I have to try MP again, since you guys say it works fine-ish.

Do you have a lower overall kill ratio though? Or do you get shot down more often?

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Hmm, seems then I have to try MP again, since you guys say it works fine-ish.

Do you have a lower overall kill ratio though? Or do you get shot down more often?

 

Mine has actually improved since VR. Checking 6 and maneuvering is initially much harder though (as you would be aware), but I am starting to improve there as well.

[Herne]

Hmm, seems then I have to try MP again, since you guys say it works fine-ish.

Do you have a lower overall kill ratio though? Or do you get shot down more often?

 

Speaking for myself I hardly played IL2 online at all until the VR patch. When I did it was in bombers. I would get the dreaded message "first: He's engaging" A few seconds later I knew I would be dead.

 

With VR I have the confidence to fly fighters. The one to one tracking of your head, is excellent for situational awareness. I'm not a great combat pilot, chances are that I never really will be, but, I am better now than when I first started a couple of months ago. Thing is though, in VR, it's the flying that gives me the enjoyment. Especially on the likes of TAW server with the required map reading skills. Combat is just a thrilling bonus, and win or lose, I'm finding it a real blast. 

 

Cant get enough atm

 

Edit: I have uploaded some OBS capture of some of my VR flights to YT. They are mostly for my own enjoyment, and that of my wingmen, but your welcome to have a look and get a sense of just how much fun we are having 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi4ecyToFlTN3ea2t_jdO8w

Edited June 29, 2017 by herne6210

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I have pedals but have never used them in a combat sim. I use them in FSX though. My problem is I dont have enough room at my desk, I have my Saitek Cessna yoke that I use for my trim. I suppose I could unmount the yoke and set it aside though. Maybe I'll give that a try to see if I can use my pedals in combat.

[Guest deleted@50488]

I have pedals but have never used them in a combat sim. I use them in FSX though. My problem is I dont have enough room at my desk, I have my Saitek Cessna yoke that I use for my trim. I suppose I could unmount the yoke and set it aside though. Maybe I'll give that a try to see if I can use my pedals in combat.

 

Using IL2 without rudder is a delicate task, I suppose... I can't even conceive using it that way - at least a twist stick is required to operate the rudder... 

 

Most aircraft are in sideslip when not at their cruise ( for which they're trimmed ), so, you'll be losing energy...

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Ok, so I just broke down and used rudder pedals for the first time in a combat sim after 18 years of flight simulation. I had used them a lot in civilian sims, but never in combat. WOW....GAME CHANGING! WTF was I thinking not doing this sooner!? Stabilty improved by leaps and bounds! So much easier to keep on target.

 

I do however have to digress...

 

In civilian sims, using the pedals makes "crabbing" very easy, in this sim however, it REALLY shows the problem with the rudder/roll issue. Having flown several different planes in real life, I have NEVER experienced such an exaggerated roll during rudder inputs. Trying to crab with pedals in this sim will almost garuntee a cross control stall. Now, I'm not checked out to fly a WW2 fighter IRL, but in my experience the aircraft should not have the nasty adverse roll we experience now with rudder input. I'm glad the devs are addressing this. I never realized how nasty it is until now.

[coconut]

It will lead to more deaths too. I predict more complains about helicopters and sniping.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Using IL2 without rudder is a delicate task, I suppose... I can't even conceive using it that way - at least a twist stick is required to operate the rudder...

 

Most aircraft are in sideslip when not at their cruise ( for which they're trimmed ), so, you'll be losing energy...

I think you misunderstood jcomm, I do have twist on my stick, but using pedals takes the bite out of the possibility of over controlling or an inadvertent movement from just moving the stick. I see this in all its glory now thanks to this thread motivating me to actually use the hardware I have.

Edited June 29, 2017 by CG_Justin

[Intrud3r]

I have never flown without pedals, it's quite important I think... e.g. For the landing, slowing down with slipping and ... aiming

[Willy__]

In civilian sims, using the pedals makes "crabbing" very easy, in this sim however, it REALLY shows the problem with the rudder/roll issue. Having flown several different planes in real life, I have NEVER experienced such an exaggerated roll during rudder inputs. Trying to crab with pedals in this sim will almost garuntee a cross control stall. Now, I'm not checked out to fly a WW2 fighter IRL, but in my experience the aircraft should not have the nasty adverse roll we experience now with rudder input. I'm glad the devs are addressing this. I never realized how nasty it is until now.

 

I think the upcoming patch with new FM for all the planes hopefully will change that. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[Herne]

Ok, so I just broke down and used rudder pedals for the first time in a combat sim after 18 years of flight simulation. I had used them a lot in civilian sims, but never in combat. WOW....GAME CHANGING! WTF was I thinking not doing this sooner!? Stabilty improved by leaps and bounds! So much easier to keep on target.

 

I do however have to digress...

 

In civilian sims, using the pedals makes "crabbing" very easy, in this sim however, it REALLY shows the problem with the rudder/roll issue. Having flown several different planes in real life, I have NEVER experienced such an exaggerated roll during rudder inputs. Trying to crab with pedals in this sim will almost garuntee a cross control stall. Now, I'm not checked out to fly a WW2 fighter IRL, but in my experience the aircraft should not have the nasty adverse roll we experience now with rudder input. I'm glad the devs are addressing this. I never realized how nasty it is until now.

 

Well honestly at the speeds we are talking about, 400kph and above I think it would be really difficult to move the rudder at all, without any form of power assist.

 

I am assuming that the civilian aircraft you have flown travel much slower ? but I guarantee that if you were to keep your ailerons level and maintain a rudder input then the aircraft would roll.

 

picture a two channel radio control plane. They don't even have ailerons and yet you will see them doing barrel rolls, and all sorts of crazy aerobatics.

 

I think the main problem here, is that people are trying to use the rudder for maneuvers at speeds that it wasn't designed for.

 

 

[Finkeren]

I think the upcoming patch with new FM for all the planes hopefully will change that.

That is exactly the thing that it will definitely fix. Much of the other stuff is up in the air, but the excessive yaw induced roll should be a thing of the past.

[Herne]

That is exactly the thing that it will definitely fix. Much of the other stuff is up in the air, but the excessive yaw induced roll should be a thing of the past.

 

I'd like to think I could still use my rudder to give me some roll, should I ever lose my ailerons, either literally, or through control rod damage though.

[Gambit21]

I have never flown without pedals, it's quite important I think... e.g. For the landing, slowing down with slipping and ... aiming

Just depends on what you're accustomed to.

[I./JG68_Sperber]

I have become addicted to VR. Especially on the TAW server!
I love the real look around and reading the instruments.

[Finkeren]

I'd like to think I could still use my rudder to give me some roll, should I ever lose my ailerons, either literally, or through control rod damage though.

Sure, it's not gonna go away completely, just be significantly reduced.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Well honestly at the speeds we are talking about, 400kph and above I think it would be really difficult to move the rudder at all, without any form of power assist.

 

I am assuming that the civilian aircraft you have flown travel much slower ? but I guarantee that if you were to keep your ailerons level and maintain a rudder input then the aircraft would roll.

 

picture a two channel radio control plane. They don't even have ailerons and yet you will see them doing barrel rolls, and all sorts of crazy aerobatics.

 

I think the main problem here, is that people are trying to use the rudder for maneuvers at speeds that it wasn't designed for.

 

 

 

Your absolutely correct, but I feel if we put a Piper Cherokee 140 or C150 in this sim as the current FM stands, the yaw axis is inaccurate. At 450 knots the rudder should not be able to over control the plane the way it does now. Anytime there is yaw input there will be adverse roll, its the laws of physics, but if I remember correctly, to get the plane to oscillate and dip the wing HARD the way it does in this sim would would take repeated and gross inadequate control. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I'd like to think I could still use my rudder to give me some roll, should I ever lose my ailerons, either literally, or through control rod damage though.

That definetly should still be the case after the fix since it's basic aerodynamics. However, some planes ingame show excessive yaw induced roll action to the point where quickly stepping on the rudder will bring the aircraft straight into a spin even at high airspeeds (this is common for the I-16, Mig-3, P-40 and the Fw 190 ingame). That is essentially what the update is aiming to correct as well as many more things.

Edited June 29, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Herne]

That definetly should still be the case after the fix since it's basic aerodynamics. However, some planes ingame show excessive yaw induced roll action to the point where quickly stepping on the rudder will bring the aircraft straight into a spin even at high airspeeds (this is common for the I-16, Mig-3, P-40 and the Fw 190 ingame). That is essentially what the update is aiming to correct as well as many more things.

 

ok. Although I do maintain that it shouldn't be possible to stamp on the rudder,  at high speed. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by herne6210

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

Hmm, seems then I have to try MP again, since you guys say it works fine-ish.

Do you have a lower overall kill ratio though? Or do you get shot down more often?

 

I rarely play online but when i do, i play alone and i might get around 1 kdr, or if its a bad day, only losses. In normal mode its almost too easy and i usually have somewhat high kdr. Just got my new wireless trackclip pro and i can actually check my six without problems now (!) so maybe i could do little better in expert mode now. I have no idea why i used that crappy trackclip for as long as 4 years.

[Irgendjemand]

I hope it will lead to realistic flightbehavior. Thats what needed the most right now.

[19//Moach]

for those having issues with transitioning to (Saitek) pedals, you might wanna look up a common procedure which is recommended, that removes the zero-crossing "bump" - pedals should not have such a holdup crossing center, and this makes for a remarkably large amount of over-control errors and difficulty in maintaining coordination

 

whereas in most games this is a nuisance matter, that the "center nipple removal" helps fixing - in BoX, with the current state of "the wobbles" it is adding to an already very marked problem, and this may easily combine to pose a level of difficulty that increases your workload to such a point that satisfactory performance can no longer be maintained

 

even with the upcoming FM fixes (and consequent return of myself to the sim) - I'd still advise any saitek pedal owners to unscrew, unlatch and rid themselves of that pesky "bump" that makes your pedals overshoot every time you cross the center - it is not natural, and the effects of such a removal can be instantly felt (albeit some time for getting re-used to correctness will also improve your experience) 

 

I am very much aware of just how critical any "snag" or "twitch", however minor, can be to your effectiveness with flight controls  - as a rather disgruntled Saitek owner, I'll advise anyone who's unfriendly with a screwdriver to spend the extra money on something better built - however, with some fairly minor home repairs, even saitek gear can become a reliable and reasonably precise simulator interface

 

this is how you remove the infamous "center nipple" on saitek rudders.  I reckon all of them share the same roller track system, this tutorial is for the pro flight series, but I've followed it precisely on my combat model:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=73311

 

I would also recommend, while you're in there - check that there are no broken sections of the roller tracks (parallel flanges on both sides of the bottom plate, which guide the pedal "bogies" back and forth)

even ONE small breech along those tracks can lead to snagging (and loss of control) - if you see any parts that have split, even if one side remains attached to the flange, do not hesitate to superglue it back into position - ideally reinforcing it with something tougher

 

 

also check for gouging and scoring inboard of those tracks caused by inwards pivoting of the bogies from asymmetrically distributing the weight of your legs.  

remember, in combat you can easily put over 60kg of force on these things and not even notice it, (legs are MUCH stronger than arms and far less sensitive to how much force is being applied)

most often, without close attention, this force will not line up perfectly with the bogies and tracks, creating an inwards twisting torque and eventually digging a few trenches on the floor plate, from grinding protrusions on the bottom of on the bogie's steering-bar linkage mount (which extends inboard well off of the bogies wheelbase without proper support)

 

if you see gouging, there's little you can do about it and attempting to cover these "furrows" might cause your pedals to snag against any material used, prying it loose, and eventually sticking up the whole damn thing in what I can almost guarantee will be a VERY poor time to have that happen (usually a dangerous approach or a dogfight)

 

but if such damage is there (very likely with the combat model, due to the T-shape pedals and their metal construction which massively overstate the actual strength of the plastic interior) - be careful and ensure you pay attention to any snags or hickups as they start to appear - don't wait until your pedals start moving sideways to open it up, lest you end up like me, having to pry off the destroyed remains of the plastic roller tracks altogether, buff down the floor plate smooth again, and rebuild the tracks entirely anew out of material which can be sometimes hard to come across (I got lucky to have vinyl wall siding scraps readily available in the house, as my room mate had resurfaced the staircase, otherwise I'd recommend wood strips of carefully selected size)

 

 

 

yet, even with a fully rebuilt roller track, and removed center nipple, my pedals do not confer the same confidence I have in my controls on sims like CloD, FSX or even KSP (where one has only himself to blame for a poor handling aircraft) -- I have a lot of hope that the new FM changes will make up the rest of the way in giving us a responsive and realistic flight simulation once it comes along

Edited July 4, 2017 by 19//Moach

[unreasonable]

Your absolutely correct, but I feel if we put a Piper Cherokee 140 or C150 in this sim as the current FM stands, the yaw axis is inaccurate. At 450 knots the rudder should not be able to over control the plane the way it does now. Anytime there is yaw input there will be adverse roll, its the laws of physics, but if I remember correctly, to get the plane to oscillate and dip the wing HARD the way it does in this sim would would take repeated and gross inadequate control. 

 

Perhaps the developers should put a Piper Cherokee - or some similar modern prop tail dragger to which they have relatively easy access - into the game. It would be interesting to see if the FM could be arranged to give satisfactory agreement to RL behaviour, or whether any errors - such as the purported yaw-roll coupling - make that impossible.  Much easier to check for realism with a modern type than a WW2 warbird I would have thought.

 

As for the roll-yaw coupling issue: I have never had a problem with it TBH, perhaps because I came here from RoF, where it is a documented fact that sometimes the only way to roll WW1 biplanes is by use of the rudder!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

True but the ratio of yaw to roll reaction with rudder application is off (you dont even need live flight testing of the very same airplane because the relation of the two is well described and analysed in many scientific repports of the time not to mention pilot notes about the aircrafts characteristics).

Having talked to aeronautical engineers in person I know there are things in aviation you simply can't calculate precisely with formulars and simulations which could only provide a "good guess". That's where I sympathise with the devs on their flight model decisions and their will to go back and tweak it if they reccieve convincing feedback or discover flaws. The upcoming update 2.012 will prove that.

Edited July 4, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Ribbon]

I for one would welcome such a development

 

My aim flat out sucks ever since I made the transition from twister stick to pedals.

i have a strong feeling that i'll be in a same trouble, having CH pedals for a few months now but don't use them until my VKB gunfighter arrive which is a few days away. I tried them 2-3 times and it was so weird, with gunfighter i'll be forced to use them.

i guess MP won't see me for a while!

for those having issues with transitioning to (Saitek) pedals, you might wanna look up a common procedure which is recommended, that removes the zero-crossing "bump" - pedals should not have such a holdup crossing center, and this makes for a remarkably large amount of over-control errors and difficulty in maintaining coordination

 

whereas in most games this is a nuisance matter, that the "center nipple removal" helps fixing - in BoX, with the current state of "the wobbles" it is adding to an already very marked problem, and this may easily combine to pose a level of difficulty that increases your workload to such a point that satisfactory performance can no longer be maintained

 

even with the upcoming FM fixes (and consequent return of myself to the sim) - I'd still advise any saitek pedal owners to unscrew, unlatch and rid themselves of that pesky "bump" that makes your pedals overshoot every time you cross the center - it is not natural, and the effects of such a removal can be instantly felt (albeit some time for getting re-used to correctness will also improve your experience) 

 

I am very much aware of just how critical any "snag" or "twitch", however minor, can be to your effectiveness with flight controls  - as a rather disgruntled Saitek owner, I'll advise anyone who's unfriendly with a screwdriver to spend the extra money on something better built - however, with some fairly minor home repairs, even saitek gear can become a reliable and reasonably precise simulator interface

 

this is how you remove the infamous "center nipple" on saitek rudders.  I reckon all of them share the same roller track system, this tutorial is for the pro flight series, but I've followed it precisely on my combat model:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=73311

 

I would also recommend, while you're in there - check that there are no broken sections of the roller tracks (parallel flanges on both sides of the bottom plate, which guide the pedal "bogies" back and forth)

even ONE small breech along those tracks can lead to snagging (and loss of control) - if you see any parts that have split, even if one side remains attached to the flange, do not hesitate to superglue it back into position - ideally reinforcing it with something tougher

 

 

also check for gouging and scoring inboard of those tracks caused by inwards pivoting of the bogies from asymmetrically distributing the weight of your legs.  

remember, in combat you can easily put over 60kg of force on these things and not even notice it, (legs are MUCH stronger than arms and far less sensitive to how much force is being applied)

most often, without close attention, this force will not line up perfectly with the bogies and tracks, creating an inwards twisting torque and eventually digging a few trenches on the floor plate, from grinding protrusions on the bottom of on the bogie's steering-bar linkage mount (which extends inboard well off of the bogies wheelbase without proper support)

 

if you see gouging, there's little you can do about it and attempting to cover these "furrows" might cause your pedals to snag against any material used, prying it loose, and eventually sticking up the whole damn thing in what I can almost guarantee will be a VERY poor time to have that happen (usually a dangerous approach or a dogfight)

 

but if such damage is there (very likely with the combat model, due to the T-shape pedals and their metal construction which massively overstate the actual strength of the plastic interior) - be careful and ensure you pay attention to any snags or hickups as they start to appear - don't wait until your pedals start moving sideways to open it up, lest you end up like me, having to pry off the destroyed remains of the plastic roller tracks altogether, buff down the floor plate smooth again, and rebuild the tracks entirely anew out of material which can be sometimes hard to come across (I got lucky to have vinyl wall siding scraps readily available in the house, as my room mate had resurfaced the staircase, otherwise I'd recommend wood strips of carefully selected size)

 

 

 

yet, even with a fully rebuilt roller track, and removed center nipple, my pedals do not confer the same confidence I have in my controls on sims like CloD, FSX or even KSP (where one has only himself to blame for a poor handling aircraft) -- I have a lot of hope that the new FM changes will make up the rest of the way in giving us a responsive and realistic flight simulation once it comes along

yeah i have to do same with CH pedals

http://imgur.com/gallery/GW6Hl