The wobbling issue and the future updates

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

Dear Community and Devs, 

 

I would like to share my horrible experience with the so called wobbling. I have made a video to show how difficult (almost impossible) it is for me to strafe or even to shoot down a bandit. However, first I wanna say first a couple of things:

 

1. I am NOT criticizing the game or the DEVs as a matter of fact, I LOVE this sim and I strongly believe that the future updates .011 and .012 will solve this problem issue once and for all. I just wanna help the DEVs to see what I am experiencing myself to help them correct this problem forever.

 

2. Yesterday I tried the Yak 1B thanks to Redribbon's generosity. It was all afternoon flying (my wife probably hates him now  ) and ... no wobbling AT ALL !!   so, maybe my old Saitek X52 Pro was not the one to blame after all (but other people with different joysticks do not suffer the wobbling in the Bf109s, Why not? My squad mates and other pilots, who do not experience the wobbling, probably think weird stuff about me and that I am crazy  but I DO and the wobbling exits ). Now, I am thinking that maybe it's the FM and with the new updates .... I really hope this will be gone for good. I have wobbling especially with the Bf109 and very light with the Soviet crates.

 

3. Unfortunately, I will be all July and August unable to fly and   I will not see next two updates until September. However, i will be tuned to see what other pilots say after the final release of the patches.

 

May the Force be with the Devs and send the Wobbling to the place where it belongs  (I don't want to say the F word, lol)

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by -=PHX=-Spartan-

[No601_Prangster]

I think it was the music that did it.

[Haza]

Dear Community and Devs,

 

I would like to share my horrible experience with the so called wobbling. I have made a video to show how difficult (almost impossible) it is for me to strafe or even to shoot down a bandit. However, first I wanna say first a couple of things:

 

1. I am NOT criticizing the game or the DEVs as a matter of fact, I LOVE this sim and I strongly believe that the future updates .011 and .012 will solve this problem issue once and for all. I just wanna help the DEVs to see what I am experiencing myself to help them correct this problem forever.

 

2. Yesterday I tried the Yak 1B thanks to Redribbon's generosity. It was all afternoon flying (my wife probably hates him now ) and ... no wobbling AT ALL !! so, maybe my old Saitek X52 Pro was not the one to blame after all (but other people with different joysticks do not suffer the wobbling in the Bf109s, Why not?). Now, I am thinking that maybe it's the FM and with the new updates .... it really hope this will be gone.

 

3. Unfortunately, I will be all July and August unable to fly and I will not see next two updates until September.

 

May the Force be with the Devs and send the Wobbling to the place were it belongs (I don't want to say the F word, lol)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_u1vKa8__o&t=28s

Nice video,however are you absolutely sure the wobble is not down to something as simple as turbulence that is built into each SP map etc or perhaps the SP map was just a rogue one as your MP looked fairly steady and accurate? Just a thought.

 

Regards

Edited June 24, 2017 by Haza

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

Nop, if I fly in the same map or server with the Bf109 or the Yak 1B, things are different. Wobbling with the 109 and perfect smoothness with the Yak 1B. 

lol The music reflects how I feel with the issue 

Edited June 24, 2017 by -=PHX=-Spartan-

[Haza]

Nop, if I fly in the same map or server with the Bf109 or the Yak 1B, thing are different. Wobbling with the 109 and perfect smoothness with the Yak 1B.

lol The music reflects how I feel with the issue

Perhaps the 109 is nervous and scared doing battle against the VVS whereas the Yak is up for the fight.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Spartan my friend, I'm afraid this might be a case of "The problem lies between the chair and the joystick"?   

[Haza]

Spartan my friend, I'm afraid this might be a case of "The problem lies between the chair and the joystick"?

Of course his computer!

[Ribbon]

Aircraft aerofoil, wing shape and plane's aerodynamic design overall, it all comes down to this beside engine performance, sacrifice stability and maneuverability for speed and other factors.

[Finkeren]

The wobbling issue is far too widely reported for me not to take seriously.

 

I do wonder what's the cause though, because quite frankly I simply don't experience it. Yes, the 109s are less directionally stable than some other fighters, but nothing like what's shown in this video.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Finkeren

[LLv34_Wmaker]

Nice video,however are you absolutely sure the wobble is not down to something as simple as turbulence.

 

 

Are you absolutely sure that 'the wobble' isn't a fundamental flaw in the flight model that is announced to be fixed? Also, are you sure you understand the difference between the effects of turbulence on an aircraft compared for example to the effect of an aircraft's directional stability or lack of it has on it?

[Guest deleted@83466]

The wobbling issue is far too widely reported for me not to take seriously.

 

I do wonder what's the cause though, because quite frankly I simply don't experience it. Yes, the 109s are less directionally stable than some other fighters, but nothing like what's shown in this video.

 

 Yeah, I pretty much agree with that.  I've taken it upon myself to get better with the German planes like the 109, and my read on it is that it's just more sensitive on the controls than the Russian planes, and requires a different touch.  I feel like when I get it all slow and mushy and uncoordinated and am having trouble getting the nose on the target, it's largely my own fault.  I'm not saying everything is how it should be, because I simply don't know the answer to that, I'm just saying it doesn't feel to me to be anywhere near as bad as some have made it sound.  In fact, I'm hoping that this much anticipated update that is rumored to improve stability doesn't overdo it, and make these planes feel like they are on rails, because I don't know if that would be correct either.  I thank god I'm not a flight sim developer, because it sounds like it might be hard work!

Edited June 24, 2017 by Iceworm

[Lusekofte]

If you use x 52 stick with twist rudder you are bound to have inaccuracy on yaw axis. Yak might be more stable, A 109 is more nimble and bad hardware is not good for the sensitive controls on the 109. So you just made a wrong assumption, The x52 yaw got a rubbish potentiometer and will make a sensitive plane wobble. But I heard other complain about the same, so it might be a problem for all I know. Personally I haven't flown a 109 since first week of alpha when we only got 109 and LAGG

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

Nop, I use the Saitek Flight Rudder Pedals.

 

This is how I feel with the wobbling ....

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by -=PHX=-Spartan-

[KG200_Volker]

If you don't have or don't need FFB use this : https://whitemagic.github.io/JoystickGremlin/

Set a curve for rudder and it will make a huge difrence for you, as you get experience you can add all axis and even make profiles to your liking for every plane.


 

Edited June 25, 2017 by KG200_Volker

[Haza]

Are you absolutely sure that 'the wobble' isn't a fundamental flaw in the flight model that is announced to be fixed? Also, are you sure you understand the difference between the effects of turbulence on an aircraft compared for example to the effect of an aircraft's directional stability or lack of it has on it?

 

LLv34_Windmaker

 

No I'm not absolutely sure!

 

Owing to the fact that this is a game and not RL, in SP mode, I have altered the environmental/realism parameters and have generated very similar results as to those experienced in the OP video.  Therefore, without trying to appear clever or arrogant by asking lame perhaps rhetorical questions, I thought I would ask my question about the turbulence, although perhaps I should have been a little bit more specific in my explanation rather than appearing to be vague.

 

As an Aircraft Engineer myself (for clarification MRAeS, MIET, CEng, MSc), I'm probably expected to have a basic understanding of stability and know a little bit about those large things that stick out from the sides and what the big turny thing is with hot stuff coming out the back, however, as I'm not a PC gaming expert/nerd and owing to my own experiences with messing with the gaming settings, I thought I would ask a simple question as I have never encountered in MP, the issues that the OP has had.

 

Therefore, my own RL experience and encounters have clearly demonstrated to me that when you assume something based on little information, you normally get it wrong based on arrogant assumptions.  The old saying "BullS**t in, equals BullS**t out" still rings true.

 

However, whatever the reason, I do hope that Spartan gets his answer.

 

Regards

Edited June 25, 2017 by Haza

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

If you go to Realism, and select custom, then select simplified physics, you will not have the problem of a constantly wobbling gunsight, but in campaign mode the custom option is not available ?? so what ever plane you fly that effect is with  you always.

 

I have requested via many posts that the custom option be included in the campaign mode, my argument is that, i own the flight sim which is on my computer, so why cant i fly it the way that i choose !

 

 

Best of luck.

[ZachariasX]

I have never experienced a real aircraft exhibiting this "wobble", even very neutral ones like the Bücker Jungmann. What they will do is fly crabwise if you don't keep them straight with the rudder (and stick), but they would not start to oscillate. They just yaw or roll as far as you give them contol input. The only oscillation I ever noticed was the dutch roll (The Bücker doesn't do that. Unless you are steering him to do so.)

 

The behavior of aircraft how "they are centering themselves" after you center the joystick (a weird thing to do anyway in a real aircraft without fly-by-wire) requires you to model a lot of things right in your sim. I'm really looking forward to what the devs can do about that. It seems they understood the issue. Plus there doesn't seem to be anyone being vocal about the wobble having to stay, for whatever reason.

 

Of course it is, even with what we have, the pilot who is responsible for the wobbling. With propper control there is no such wobble. But the main point is, you have to control something that is absent in real aircraft. An aircraft being neutral in yaw (such as the 109) makes it IRL even easier to hit as it makes aiming even easier. I wonder how many will scream "Arcade!" after the patch.

[Guest deleted@50488]

I believe this is actually one of the reasons 1C / 777 ( let me say, an examplar developers Team ! ) has embraced the task of a deep flight dynamics revision, expected to show it's first effects in one of the upcoming updates.

 

I never owned a FF stick, I'm a long time simmer and aviation nuts, and also a real pilot ( for 36+ yrs, gliders "only" ), and I have debated and thought about this wobbling myself, since I started considering and using IL.2 Battle of... simply the most advanced and closest to the sensation of being there flight simulator.

 

One reason might be the fact that the 109s have that leading edge slats... but the wobbling in pitch, although not so pronounced, is also present in all other fighters and some of the bombers / carriers in IL2 Battle of, so.... I thought it can also be due to:

 

.) pitching moment due to AoA calculation;

.) pitching moment due to sideslip calculation;

.) overdone propwash effects on the tail surfaces;

 

Actually, the Developers Diaries already mentioned, for instance, that the interaction of the propwash / spiralling slipstream with the fuselage and tail surfaces was one of the updates in the FDM calculations expected to be made effective with the July / August patch.

 

So, for the time being it perfectly suffices for me to enjoy the sim, which, as the OP has made clear, is an outstanding example of dedication of a group of programmers / consultants / project managers to bring the user community what I still consider to be simply the most realistic flight simulator for powerful prop aircraft I have ever used. I'll wait and see what the update brings :-)

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I used to be concerned with the wobble a year and a half ago. Now I'm so used to it that I actually don't notice it at all (maybe it was reduced in a patch along the way), and can't stand flying Russian planes as they feel lifeless and just go where you point them. My gunnery is way off in a Russian plane.

 

I'm waiting to see how this FM patch goes.

[Livai]

Each plane has his own sensitivity. And yours sensitivity is very sensitive..........    

[Guest deleted@50488]

Each plane has his own sensitivity. And yours sensitivity is very sensitive..........  

 

You're a sensible guy! :-)

[=EXPEND=Capt_Yorkshire]

for me the 109 feels right , i think the dev guys did a good job with it.

[LLv34_Wmaker]

nvm

[Asgar]

i only have one question...we're getting a new FM with the patch after next one...so why are you complaining about the old FM?

[ZachariasX]

i only have one question...we're getting a new FM with the patch after next one...so why are you complaining about the old FM?

Complain while you can.

[216th_Jordan]

Also when the new FM comes there will not be enough space to critizice the old FM because there will be too much critizism of the new FM.

[Lusekofte]

I still get the feeling that the enormous amount of different sim hardware is causing different experiences of the FM , like the wobbling .

I think people expect too much of a saitek rudder pedal. There is a enormous different feeling flying with high end hardware and the price of those is sadly the same.

I was satisfied at one time with my saitek pedals and x 52 joystick, but I can never go back once flying with better equipment. 

Since I bought BOS preorder the same day it was available I had expensive hardware, and I have not had the same problems as many others. What I mean is there must be more than just the FM in some complaints 

Edited June 25, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[MadisonV44]

The wobbling issue is far too widely reported for me not to take seriously.

 

+1

[sniperton]

One shouldn’t forget that we fly all these planes with the same stick and rudder settings. The whole issue reminds me of good old Il-2 1946, where we had the possibility to have multiple stick sensitivity settings, and that certainly made sense, as different planes needed different settings to make them feel 'natural'. E.g. a setting which was 'just fine' for the Hurricane or the Yak proved to be over-sensivite when applied to the Spit or the 109, while the IAR felt like a brick with the same curves.

 

 

My point is that the problem, at least in part, lies between the joystick and the individual FMs. It was only in CLOD that once I set the curves for one plane it worked fine for all the rest as well.

 

 

So I think we have two issues: why do planes wobble at all (FM); why are some planes more affected than others for some users (how physical input is translated)?

 

[Riderocket]

i like how its always the german players who complain.... no one ever mentions the Mig Wobbles, or by the looks of it, the spitfires "bar" 

[Livai]

Also when the new FM comes there will not be enough space to critizice the old FM because there will be too much critizism of the new FM.

 

Brace yourselves the spoilers are coming.....!!!!   

[Finkeren]

i like how its always the german players who complain.... no one ever mentions the Mig Wobbles, or by the looks of it, the spitfires "bar"

I was just about to mention it. The only plane that feels wobbly to me is the MiG, but then again, I'm not sure that's entirely incorrect.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

i like how its always the german players who complain.... no one ever mentions the Mig Wobbles, or by the looks of it, the spitfires "bar" 

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29766-developer-diary-part-162-discussion/?p=482683

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29766-developer-diary-part-162-discussion/?p=482690

[Thad]

Also when the new FM comes there will not be enough space to critizice the old FM because there will be too much critizism of the new FM.

There is much wisdom in this one.

[BlitzPig_EL]

 I wonder how many will scream "Arcade!" after the patch.

 

 

This.

 

Too many simmers think that flying a real airplane is far harder than it really is, and they also are caught up in the "harder is more real" mantra, because well, gamers that have been at this for maybe two decades in some cases, simply have a skill set/hours flown, that exceeds that of any real combat pilot.  They need an ever harder new experience with each new title, lest they get bored quickly.

 

Remember that the air forces in WW2 were able to train 18 to 20 year old people how to fly these machines and be successful in them.   Not saying it was easy, but it obviously wasn't impossible either.

 

Waiting for the first "planes on rails" post myself, you know it's coming.

[smink1701]

Wobble is an issue in ROF and BOS is based on the same architecture. Wish it was fixable but at this point don't think it is or it would have been address by now.

[Riderocket]

This.

 

Too many simmers think that flying a real airplane is far harder than it really is, and they also are caught up in the "harder is more real" mantra, because well, gamers that have been at this for maybe two decades in some cases, simply have a skill set/hours flown, that exceeds that of any real combat pilot. They need an ever harder new experience with each new title, lest they get bored quickly.

 

Remember that the air forces in WW2 were able to train 18 to 20 year old people how to fly these machines and be successful in them. Not saying it was easy, but it obviously wasn't impossible either.

 

Waiting for the first "planes on rails" post myself, you know it's coming.

Yes, imho the planes in this sim are harder to fly in some ways but not in others, when compared to real life.

 

But how most people even know whats really harder or easier compared to real life, when only a handful have actually flown ww2 planes irl, and in combat at that!

 

Hopefully after this new FM update it'll be even more realistic

[BlitzPig_EL]

I hope so too Riderocket.

 

Really I do.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I watched the video and here's what happened.  I found the music delightful.  I had to get up out of my seat and start dancing.  I'm not sure the dance has a name but I think I'm going to call it, "The Wobble".

[Guest deleted@83466]

Waiting for the first "planes on rails" post myself, you know it's coming.

 

As far as "rails" go, I've never been in a small plane with a big prop driven by a 1200 hp engine out front:  Wouldn't the pilot be able to detect the gyroscopic precession and experience this as what could be termed "wobbling", even if it was very slight?  I mean, you aren't sitting on a Concorde, pouring a glass of Champagne...I wouldn't expect an experience that is glass smooth.   (Jiggling glob of Jello, no, I get no sensation of anything even remotely similar to that in our current Bf-109 flight model)

Edited June 25, 2017 by Iceworm