Gloss

[Danziger]

This has been discussed before and the official word is that the default skins are correct. I still tend to disagree. While some very early war Soviet paints are listed as gloss, almost all of the ones used post-Barbarossa are listed as matt. A lot of people like to argue that matt surfaces were not smooth and too draggy. This is just not true. Surfaces were smoothed to 400 or 600 grit for tunnel testing? You can sand a surface with 2500 grit and still have a matt finish.

The shine on the default skins looks fine when the light strikes the surface at a steep angle but when you look at a shallow angle the surface is like glass and has mirror reflections.

Check this photo. Look at the canopy glass. It is glossy and reflective as it should be. You do not see any of these kinds of reflections anywhere in the painted surface. You wouldn't want to. It is a tactical military aircraft. A reflective glossy finish will give away position from very far away.

[bzc3lk]

A little bit of gloss on the Lufty chariots here. How common it was, I have no idea.

Edited June 24, 2017 by bzc3lk

[Blutaar]

I allways thought IL2 is to glossy but with these pics with the LW guys it is clearly visible how glossy these are. Well done devs.

[Pierre64]

Look at this F-4/trop

[Danziger]

A little bit of gloss on the Lufty chariots here. How common it was, I have no idea.

I can't really speak for axis planes as I am not so familiar with their painting techniques. This looks like the same aircraft and pilot in both images. If you compare the surface of the rudder itself to the rest of the polished surfaces the rudder is still quite matt. I'm not sure if this pilot wanted his plane polished or if it was a unit-wide standard. I have also found images of early MiG and LaGG aircraft that look polished. They were made very early when the Soviets were still using glossy lacquer. I know if you check American and British planes as well it is difficult to to find a polished glossy look until near the end of the war when the bare metal came into fashion.

[Picchio]

It seems to me that the wrong thing about these reflections is just with the way the screen-space reflections shader works right now.

[Danziger]

Yes I don't think it is in the skins themselves I think it has more to do with lighting and specular mapping. The editing of the alpha channel seems like a workaround for a bigger issue.

[Feathered_IV]

A little bit of gloss on the Lufty chariots here. How common it was, I have no idea.

 

It might have rained a little while before.  Who knows. 

[Uufflakke]

Look at this F-4/trop

IMG_0055.JPG

 

Glossy glossy indeed.

 

On this image from an other source it is way less glossy.

 

 

According the additional information (https://me109.info/display.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=skzliste&fotonummer=6435 ) the photo was taken in November 1942 in Munich before its flight to North Africa.

That explains the snow covered fields in the background. Instead of the endless sand areas of North Africa.

For my feeling big spotligths light up the airfield when looking at the strong shadows on lower side of wing and stabilizer and man in the background. The strong ligth source reflects in the fuselage.

November does have crispy clear and bright sunny days in NW Europe which might cause also strong light/dark contrast but because of the haze and purple sky I assume it is early morning hours.

 

Long story short: I only want to show this particular image is not the best example.

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A little bit of gloss on the Lufty chariots here. How common it was, I have no idea.

The text accompanying these photos, in one of my references, stated Luftwaffe paints went on glossy but typically flattened out over just a few weeks.

Glossy glossy indeed.

 

On this image from an other source it is way less glossy.

 

 

According the additional information (https://me109.info/display.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=skzliste&fotonummer=6435 ) the photo was taken in November 1942 in Munich before its flight to North Africa.

That explains the snow covered fields in the background. Instead of the endless sand areas of North Africa.

For my feeling big spotligths light up the airfield when looking at the strong shadows on lower side of wing and stabilizer and man in the background. The strong ligth source reflects in the fuselage.

November does have crispy clear and bright sunny days in NW Europe which might cause also strong light/dark contrast but because of the haze and purple sky I assume it is early morning hours.

 

Long story short: I only want to show this particular image is not the best example.

 

Definitely no spotlights in that photo!

[JG1_Vonrd]

The Luftwaffe pics from bzc3lk were a surprise to me. Still... I'm not a fan of the gloss. It can be tamed by use of the alpha channel in custom skins but can't do anything about the official skins. See this thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29410-changing-wetlook/

Edited June 24, 2017 by II./JG1_Vonrd

[bzc3lk]

 If you compare the surface of the rudder itself to the rest of the polished surfaces the rudder is still quite matt.

 

On the contrary the rudder (vertical stab) is gloss as well. You can see the reflection of the pilot's sleeve and elbow in the vertical stabilizer reflection.

[Danziger]

On the contrary the rudder (vertical stab) is gloss as well. You can see the reflection of the pilot's sleeve and elbow in the vertical stabilizer reflection.

I'm not talking about vertical stabiliser. The rudder by itself is not as glossy as the vertical stabiliser and the rest of the plane.

[bzc3lk]

 I'm not sure if this pilot wanted his plane polished or if it was a unit-wide standard.

 

Another pilot with a glossy tail, wax or gloss paint, not sure.

[DetCord12B]

The early camo and paint schemes were fairly glossy as opposed to the late war stuff which was matte. Kinda defeats the purpose of camouflage if your aircraft is surface reflective. As far as skins/liveries go, the only way to edit them is to alter the alpha and its something I wouldn't recommend. We'd be far better off if the developers provided us with spec maps that can be edited.

 

Example (Aerosoft A319 spec map)

 

[Retnek]

A little bit of gloss on the Lufty chariots here. How common it was, I have no idea.

It was a common Luftwaffe practice during the early years of war to polish the planes. Very difficult to generalize, it was done individually. My *impression* is it was done with most of the fighter planes until 1942/43 and with a good number of bombers, too. Sometimes one can find declarations like "primed and polished the planes were 10 km/h faster". Doesn't matter if they could measure it or if it was true at all - as long as a the pilots believed in it there have been enough hands to polish the planes, the wings at least.

 The reports and biographies often mention this detail when there was no time left "to care for the planes like we did it before". Usually during phases with high loss rates like Russian winters, the end of the Africa campaign, Italy 43/44 and defence of the Reich 44/45. Reading reports by veterans from 1944/45 one can find phrases like "we took the plane like it came from the factory, put a number on it and no one cared for the planes appearance" Because a plane was not expected to survive more than 10 sorties. Individual markings were done with chalk often, no sense to invest much time.

[Danziger]

The early camo and paint schemes were fairly glossy as opposed to the late war stuff which was matte. Kinda defeats the purpose of camouflage if your aircraft is surface reflective. As far as skins/liveries go, the only way to edit them is to alter the alpha and its something I wouldn't recommend. We'd be far better off if the developers provided us with spec maps that can be edited.

 

Example (Aerosoft A319 spec map)

 

This is what I was thinking. I edit my alpha but that alone doesn't quite go far enough in making it look more realistic. I think the missing key is in the specular mapping.

[DetCord12B]

This is what I was thinking. I edit my alpha but that alone doesn't quite go far enough in making it look more realistic. I think the missing key is in the specular mapping.

 

I wonder if they aircraft have specular maps but its that we just don't have access to them?

[BlackHellHound1]

The alpha channel is the specular map.

For the best effect, you have to remake it completely if you would like to change it. (due to overlaying effects that won't look as good anymore.

However, the shine effect is not the most beautiful and you cannot make a mirror finish with it but you can adjust it quite a bit. 

 

If you want to edit the alpha layer, you have to copy the layer, add your stuff like normal photoshop, duplicate, merge and copy and paste back into the alpha layer. 

 

This is how I do it all the time. It really allows you to make the skin look a bit better. (but takes a bit of time)

 

BlackHellHound1

 

[DetCord12B]

The alpha channel is the specular map.

For the best effect, you have to remake it completely if you would like to change it. (due to overlaying effects that won't look as good anymore.

However, the shine effect is not the most beautiful and you cannot make a mirror finish with it but you can adjust it quite a bit. 

 

If you want to edit the alpha layer, you have to copy the layer, add your stuff like normal photoshop, duplicate, merge and copy and paste back into the alpha layer. 

 

This is how I do it all the time. It really allows you to make the skin look a bit better. (but takes a bit of time)

 

BlackHellHound1

 

 

I understand that mate but its hit and miss at best. I alter the reflections all the time via the alpha, but what would make things so much better would be dedicated spec maps.

[Zargos]

but what would make things so much better would be dedicated spec maps

 

As far as I know we (skinners) don't have any other choice than the alpha layer.

If you take the time to rework the alpha layer, you can get quite good results and tune the reflection factors of your skin according to your own idea of how glossy a warbird should be.

IMMO, there is no absolute truth, many shades of gloss and matt can be found, so do your skins as you wish !

 

Here is a example of how the alpha layer can alter the light reflexion :

 

 

On the upper picture, the alpha layer is already tune in order to get a more matt effect than with the defaults skins, on the lower picture I've reduced the reflection factors again and I prefer this last version.

Note that you can still get a high reflection factor on bare metal parts (as shown here on chipped parts), by changing the gray shade of the alpha layer just on the chipped areas.

 

Cheers.

Edited December 14, 2017 by UF_Zargos

[Danziger]

Yes. I use a completely separate alpha template for each plane. I have all the layers in shades of grey to give each details the desired level of shinyness. Then I flatten it and copy the result to the alpha channel of the regular airplane template. This way I can adjust for different skins. For instance if the base paint was more matt but some field markings were applied with a more glossy paint. Or with Soviet planes having a slightly gloss summer paint but the winter white temporary paint completely matt.

[JG77-FluGb0t-]

[A-E-Hartmann]

Yes, polishing. Here is the secret of the gloss on German planes.
The planes were polished to win a few km / h in combat.
But after I do not know if this fact is true?.

[Pierre64]

Look at this (probably brand new) Tempest : flat dark sea grey, glossy dark green.

[ICDP]

Look at this (probably brand new) Tempest : flat dark sea grey, glossy dark green.

56525E4C-6601-473B-BED4-7F1CEEBD5FA4.jpeg

 

It is quite evident that there were various finishes depending on batch, year and even factory.  In reality it is down to the individual because plenty of evidence can be found showing both very matte and very glossy surfaces for even the same mark of aircraft.

 

I also hope you don't take my motive as anything other than educational, but that's a Spitfire :D

[Pierre64]

Thanks ICDP ! Never too late to learn...I feel ashamed

[ICDP]

Too prove a point that there is no definitive answer on glossy or matte.  Bf109s with no reflective surfaces.

Edited December 18, 2017 by ICDP

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Those are machines of the Afrika Corps. Aircaft of all kinds faced some of the worst envirouments in africa. Low humidity, dust, sandstorms all things the paint took damage from.

 

As with many things people seekign the definite truth will never come to a conclusion. Be it paint reflectiveness, weathering, colour ect.

 

The picture of the Typhoon actually looks very similar to our 1960s Do 27 with original military paint (no airshow polish on it, all original markings and colour). There definetly is shine to it and a little bit of gloss if viewed at extreme angles in strong sunlight conditions on ground.

 

Edit: This is the aircraft I'm talking about.

 

Another example, a Willys Jeep but similar paint:

(I know I've overdone it with the colour filter)

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[ICDP]

It's not the point that it's North Africa, it's the point there is variations, which we both agree on.