Spitfire V vs IV engine management

[Bearfoot]

So, those who fly the DCS Spitfire (LF Mark IX C, with Merlin 66 with 2-stage supercharger) know that this one has the trickiest engine management of all the birds in DCS and IL2, even though radiator controls and mixture are automatic. The tricky part is requiring to keep speed above 180 MPH if you have any significant boost/throttle or otherwise the lack of airflow over the radiators will blow, boil, set fire to, or otherwise deeply psychologically damage your engine. This makes for fundamentally more challenging flying, e.g. you can just climb after someone at full power --- you have to keep glancing down at your speed and if it drops below 180 you have to chop your throttle and rely on inertia to see you as far as possible. Same goes for any maneuver in which you dump speed, e.g. turns. Moreover, even after you regain your speed above the magic 180 MPH, say in a dive, you cannot just ramp up to full boost from a low boost instantly, or, again, you will break your engine.

 

 

Does anyone know how the V engine management and/or flying regime compares to this? In real life or in the sim? That is, for e.g., is there a minimum air speed requirement to maintain sufficient cooling at significant boost? 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bearfoot

[Finkeren]

Does anyone know how the V engine management and/or flying regime compares to this? In real life or in the sim? That is, for e.g., is there a minimum air speed requirement to maintain sufficient cooling at significant boost?

I have no idea how either the DCS Mk. IX or the BoK Mk. V handle the engine modeling, but with regard to the last point about cooling, that is true for almost any plane in the sim. The Bf 109s have problems keeping oil temperature down when maneuvering at low speeds under combat power, the Yak-1 has trouble with both fluids in prolonged dogfights on summer maps and the La-5 is a proper nightmare to keep cool.

[Bearfoot]

I have no idea how either the DCS Mk. IX or the BoK Mk. V handle the engine modeling, but with regard to the last point about cooling, that is true for almost any plane in the sim. The Bf 109s have problems keeping oil temperature down when maneuvering at low speeds under combat power, the Yak-1 has trouble with both fluids in prolonged dogfights on summer maps and the La-5 is a proper nightmare to keep cool.

 

Ah, I see. I guess the issue with the DCS Spittie IX is:

 

(a) The minimum speed is pretty high --- 180 MPH. 

(b) The margin of error/tolerance is measured in seconds at best --- you go below 180 MPH at high boost (or you go to high boost at below 180 MPH), you blow your engine between two breaths.

 

I have hardly flown the La-5, and it's been a long while since I've flown any 109 ("balancing the server" thing), so not sure how they work. But at least in the Yak, it seems, there is a lot of tolerance before things go south? Or am I mistaken? 

[Finkeren]

In general you can run the engine pretty hot without consequence, but as soon as you cross the threshold to proper "overheat", you have only a few minutes to get temperatures down before damage occurs. The cylinder head temperature in the air cooled radials on the La-5 and I-16 is even worse. The tolerance is lower and damage occurs very rapidly.

 

The Fw190 hardly ever have overheating issues, which is testament to the effectiveness of its unique cooling system.

[Bearfoot]

In general you can run the engine pretty hot without consequence, but as soon as you cross the threshold to proper "overheat", you have only a few minutes to get temperatures down before damage occurs. The cylinder head temperature in the air cooled radials on the La-5 and I-16 is even worse. The tolerance is lower and damage occurs very rapidly.

 

The Fw190 hardly ever have overheating issues, which is testament to the effectiveness of its unique cooling system.

 

Thanks. 

 

That small mental task load of watching your speed really makes a difference. Interesting to see how the Spit V will play out compared to the other birds.

[ICDP]

The Spitfire Mk V with the single radiator is even harder to keep cool than the Mk IX.  The radiators on all Spitfire were positioned directly behind the UC legs which drastically reduced airflow.  Spitfires (especially early marks with single radiator) were very prone to overheating during taxiing.

 

I remember reading a story where a squadron of Spitfire Mk IX had to be diverted during landing to a bomber airfield.  The ground controllers at the base insisted the Spitfires line up behind a tractor for taxiing to the ramp area and very soon had a squadron of Spitfires with blown engines.

[Finkeren]

Well, in general I think, that cooling in this sim is perhaps a bit too effective, not just in some planes but across the board. You have to really push it to cause an overheat with a fully opened radiator, going very slow at full throttle/max rpm for several minutes. Given that, I think the Spit will be okay.

[Herne]

I came across this, which doesn't really address the 180 MPH question directly. Testing the MK V however, exceeding the 3 minute boost period to climb to 24000' they had no problems with either oil or coolant temps. 

They do say though that the radiators were not suitable for tropical conditions, but perfectly adequate for temperate conditions. 
 

See for yourself and make of it what you will :-

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/aa878.html

 

Edit: I'm not aware of any cooling problems with the spitfire, apart from the single radiator spits, while idling / taxiing during a hot British Summer.

 

I would love to know where the creators of DCS are getting their information. 180 MPH is really quite draughty after all.

Edited June 26, 2017 by herne6210

[216th_Jordan]

Comparing one sim with another is normally not something that yields much information in terms of real aircraft behavior.

[Legioneod]

I've never had a problem keeping the DCS spit cool even below 180. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Legioneod

[ZachariasX]

The Spit was built from the very start ad a FAST plane and it was meant to be flown fast, even Mk.I and II variants. Also IRL they will start cooking (you can see the steam exiting the relief valve next to the spinner) if you are maintaining a high power low speed regime.

[Bearfoot]

I've never had a problem keeping the DCS spit cool even below 180. 

 

Sure at minimal or low boost. If you can go below 180 and full RPM and have any significant boost, you will blow your engine. If not, check your dashboard: is it in Cyrilic? You are probably flying the Su-27 then.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bearfoot

[Wulf]

The Spitfire Mk V with the single radiator is even harder to keep cool than the Mk IX.  The radiators on all Spitfire were positioned directly behind the UC legs which drastically reduced airflow.  Spitfires (especially early marks with single radiator) were very prone to overheating during taxiing.

 

I remember reading a story where a squadron of Spitfire Mk IX had to be diverted during landing to a bomber airfield.  The ground controllers at the base insisted the Spitfires line up behind a tractor for taxiing to the ramp area and very soon had a squadron of Spitfires with blown engines.

 

 

Boy, I bet someone if not a number of people got into some serious trouble over that.  Destroying a whole squadron of Spitfires in wartime wouldn't be well received I suspect.  I'm somewhat surprised the flight leaders didn't demonstrate greater initiative given that they must have known the likely outcome - as would each individual pilot.  Imagine trying to explain to the assembled officers at the court martial that you just sat there, like a dildo, and watched as the aircraft under your charge destroyed themselves.  

[Legioneod]

Sure at minimal or low boost. If you can go below 180 and full RPM and have any significant boost, you will blow your engine. If not, check your dashboard: is it in Cyrilic? You are probably flying the Su-27 then.

Why would you even go full rpm and high boost at low speeds? I very rarely go full rpm and I do fine. The spit is one of the easiest things to fly at the moment imo, sure it's slow but it's a good energy fighter and you can do some dmg. The engine has never really given me a problem though.

 

Also, there is manual controls for the rads, etc. Use manual instead and open your rads up before going into combat, will def help cool your engine.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Legioneod

[Herne]

I'm assuming the document I linked earlier used full throttle and full boost in a spit mk V from take off  to 24000' which exceeded the 3 minutes combat time for boost, they say, by (quite a margin). Had to be at least twice as long and probably more, and the temperatures stayed within operating limits.

 

[Bearfoot]

I'm assuming the document I linked earlier used full throttle and full boost in a spit mk V from take off  to 24000' which exceeded the 3 minutes combat time for boost, they say, by (quite a margin). Had to be at least twice as long and probably more, and the temperatures stayed within operating limits.

 

 

 

If you stay above 180 MPH, you can, at least in the DCS model, stay at full boost and full RPM for a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time.

[Bearfoot]

Why would you even go full rpm and high boost at low speeds?

 

That's not really relevant to the point that I was making that you cannot, right?

 

But OK, we can have that conversation too.

 

I do this because I am climbing up after a bad guy. And I do this when I do some dumb overturns at low energy. In general, I do this because I am not flying "welcome to Flight 1506 from New York to London, food and refreshments will be served please have your credit card ready and hope you have a gentle flight" but I am trying to shoot down someone who is in a faster, better-climbing plane than me while trying to avoid the same being done to me. And yes I know "don't try to fight the boom-and-zoom fight with the 109 yada yada" but hey you know what, I still manage to plug the bandit as long as I watch my speed and so that works when I cannot lure them down to a turn-and-burner. So let's just leave it at this: you stick to your easy flying and you will find flying the Spit easy, and good for you. I'll stick to pushing her to edge of her envelope to get the most out of her at the cost of a lot more challenging flying and risk blowing the engine now and then.

[Legioneod]

That's not really relevant to the point that I was making that you cannot, right?

 

But OK, we can have that conversation too.

 

I do this because I am climbing up after a bad guy. And I do this when I do some dumb overturns at low energy. In general, I do this because I am not flying "welcome to Flight 1506 from New York to London, food and refreshments will be served please have your credit card ready and hope you have a gentle flight" but I am trying to shoot down someone who is in a faster, better-climbing plane than me while trying to avoid the same being done to me. And yes I know "don't try to fight the boom-and-zoom fight with the 109 yada yada" but hey you know what, I still manage to plug the bandit as long as I watch my speed and so that works when I cannot lure them down to a turn-and-burner. So let's just leave it at this: you stick to your easy flying and you will find flying the Spit easy, and good for you. I'll stick to pushing her to edge of her envelope to get the most out of her at the cost of a lot more challenging flying and risk blowing the engine now and then.

Who says I fly her easy? I just fly smart.

 

I use the spit as an energy fighter which she is quite good at and not just a simple turn and burner (though it can be quite effective). Start at a higher alt and I dont have to push my aircraft as hard.

 

I'm not trying to attack you, I was just having a conversation so I don't know why you taking jabs at me.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Who says I fly her easy? I just fly smart.

 

I use the spit as an energy fighter which she is quite good at and not just a simple turn and burner (though it can be quite effective). Start at a higher alt and I dont have to push my aircraft as hard.

 

I'm not trying to attack you, I was just having a conversation so I don't know why you taking jabs at me.

How are you using the Spit as an energy fighter when your opposition is in a faster aircraft that can outclimb, outdive and outrun you? If we're talking the Spit in DCS, unless the 109 is completely unaware of you dropping in on him all he has to do is point the nose down and he's gone.

 

I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious as to how you're pulling that off because every time I've gotten the jump on someone from a higher alt I get one shot at them and then they're gone, no catching up.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Y-29.Sulaco

[ShamrockOneFive]

How are you using the Spit as an energy fighter when your opposition is in a faster aircraft that can outclimb, outdive and outrun you? If we're talking the Spit in DCS, unless the 109 is completely unaware of you dropping in on him all he has to do is point the nose down and he's gone.

 

I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious as to how you're pulling that off because every time I've gotten the jump on someone from a higher alt I get one shot at them and then they're gone, no catching up.

 

Some use the definition of energy fight to talk about nearly all air combat. That may have been how it was used.

 

The Spitfire is actually a pretty good energy fighter. When confronted with faster opposition, with the Spitfire you use superior speed/alt (energy) to get the drop on the enemy. I often flew the Spitfire V against superior opposition by fighting like a boom and zoom energy fighter using the good climb and reasonably good energy retention to establish and hold speed in combat situations. Only at the last minute would I switch from focusing on maintaining superior energy to burning a lot of it in a tight turn cutting inside the enemy and shooting them down while in a tight turn.

 

Fighting this way with the Spitfire helps mitigate some of the speed disadvantage. You have to absolutely be on the attack and focused on maintaining speed or you'll get caught by a faster opponent.

 

It's a bit of a challenge but it can be fun.