110 gunners not worth a penny?

[Irgendjemand]

I was recently flying in a 110. Doing a bombrun and then following my escapevector low and fast.
Surely an I16 found me and attacked from slightly (like 1-200m higher energy level). I figured i dont have a chance escaping or maneuvering anyways so i kept on flying treetop with 500 km/h (after a dive to the target i could maintain that speed for a while (wintermap)) and thought if the I16 has to approach dead 6 my gunner could actually make a diffrence. Even an AI should be able to shoot straight ahead right?
So here is what happened: My gunner shot and shot and shot and shot for like a minute reloading multiple times. I took hits took hits took hits (from dead six) until my plane fell apart and i had to bail. Guess what: I looked back, saw the I16 that realized I was going down slowly heading away without a single hole or smoketrail. All my gunner in fact did was shooting holes into the air on a target that had to be flying dead 6 for like a minute.

So why is it obviously a mistake thinking a reargunner could actually hit targets that approach from the rear... Everytime I try and attack a PE2 for example from dead six i get shred to pieces in a matter of milliseconds. And I know the PE has 20mm and the 110 just 7.62. But still. Should the 16 not at least have gotten sone tiny holes?

Was on a MP server btw.

 

So something definately doesnt feel right with gunner usefulness of the 110 here.

Anyone else experienced similar things?

Edited June 14, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Barnacles]

I'm not sure but the gunner AI may be a server specific setting. I have had useless gunners in a variety of aircraft. That said, the most useless has been in a 110e. I was in the same situation as you and he didn't even fire.

[216th_Jordan]

I'm not sure but the gunner AI may be a server specific setting. I have had useless gunners in a variety of aircraft. That said, the most useless has been in a 110e. I was in the same situation as you and he didn't even fire.

It is indeed up to the mission designer to choose the gunners AI level. I can surely say that I find attacking 110s quite dangerous without much energy advantage.

[Irgendjemand]

I posted before the OP was edited to say it was MP. As well as what has been said above, was it definitely AI, and not another player who had jumped in?

 

Was AI. Players are forbidden in gunnerseats on this server.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Wulf]

Oh geeezzz.  Everyone knows the Pe gunners are like 'special' man, but not like special needs but rather special attributes (unlike the LW guys who are all retardo and messed-up).  The Pe guys are like, the shaolin monks of air gunnery.  They don't even have to look yo.  They just 'sense' the enemy and then smack; dead as a door knob.

 

It's like kinda all mystical and stuff.   

Edited June 14, 2017 by Wulf

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

My 110 gunner is usually rubbish, mainly because I am the one manning it most of the time.

[Irgendjemand]

I  should really map a button to trackrecording. Must have been really fun watching the gunner picking his nose while sooting up into the air instead of the guy thats tryign to go for his life:P

 

 

the shaolin monks of air gunnery

LOL. Good one:P
In fact with many of the mates i fly with attacking a PE is considered suicide. Even for the very good gamers amongst them.
Not calling anyone pilot since thats what we are right? Seatf.arting gamers:P 

[Willy__]

Yep, same old bs. If you dont want to get annoyed by your useless gunners dont fly bombers, or fly the deathstar a.k.a Pe2 with the sniper gunners.

 

-edit-

The pe we have ingame doesnt have cannons, it has a 7.7 and a .50cal on the nose; top and bottom gunners have belt fed .50cals and the side guns are 'drum' fed.

Edited June 14, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[Irgendjemand]

Thanks Staiger. Whatever they are shooting with kills instant and with deadly accuracy.
 

[Willy__]

Its been that way since day 1, sadly. I know how to attack pe's without getting damage, but even then you get those WTF moments, like this:

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Maybe you need to pay the gunners more than 1 penny. That way they would be more motivated

 

I don't know. I haven't found them especially good in the Bf110E-2. It's interesting that the Stuka gunners are like snipers but the 110 gunners seem to vaguely fire in the direction of the enemy.

 

It's worth checking to see what level the gunner was set to as well. Multiplayer servers apparently have the ability to set the skill level and there was some controversy over one server setting some planes to veteran and others to novice. Or was that BS? I don't know what came of it.

[Dutchvdm]

Maybe you need to pay the gunners more than 1 penny. That way they would be more motivated

 

 

Ontopic... I think the 110 gunner always aims to high, and doesn't use the vertical range of the gun very well. As soon as the plane that's sits on your six get almost low enough to below the gunners arc, he shoots miles over him. 

 

Grt M

[JG4_Sputnik]

I've also noticed, that the Me110 gunners are almost useless - that's why I've abandoned that plane, sadly, in SP campaign.

Can't say if other gunners are the same though, since I didn't fly the other planes that much.

 

But even more annoying is, that even when a gunner sometimes manages to hit an enemy, the enemy keeps attacking until either you or he drops dead from the sky. And its practically impossible to actually "kill" an enemy plane only with your gunner. So you get attacked from even badly hurt enemies and eventually you get killed.

 

Gunners were supposed to scare the enemy away or damaging them and forcing them to return, not to actually "kill" them in the first place - both of which is not present in the current Il2 AI, so no matter what, gunners are pretty useless (for SP at least).

Edited June 14, 2017 by JG4_Sputnik

[Livai]

I see two good ways to avoid be shoot down...

 

1. To fly low tree level or below tree level where the rear gunner has a good view to the enemy and the enemy no chance to B&Z or to fly below or where the dead zone from the gunner is.

2. Set Auto Level and Switch yourself to the rear gunner

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I see two good ways to avoid be shoot down...

 

1. To fly low tree level or below tree level where the rear gunner has a good view to the enemy and the enemy no chance to B&Z or to fly below or where the dead zone from the gunner is.

2. Set Auto Level and Switch yourself to the rear gunner

 

 

This is the way. No. 1 is the most important.

 

 

The gunner station on the 110 is also just kind of crappy. Part of the nature of the aircraft.  At least it has an abundance of ammo.  More than can be said for the IL-2 42 field mod gunner.

Edited June 14, 2017 by 7-GvShAP/Silas

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Blahhhhhhh ALL GUNERS are shite !!! Get tactics or cover!

 

or a pe2 (but that is not a given as when I take it they nail me)

[Luftschiff]

Stuka and Pe2 Gunners are really good overall. They bring someone down almost every time I am attacked, even if it's minutes later. 110 and HE111 gunners are absolute rot though I couldn't guess at the reason. There's been a bunch of threads on this matter before as I recall - the consensus seemed to be that they tend to aim well above the targets for reasons unknown. I don't know if I've ever gotten a gunner kill in either of those planes despite being the types I fly the most, but you're typically a target of attack more often in a stuka too, which shouldn't be discounted.

 

There's certainly some difference between the lethality of gunners, but whether it's AI or the nature of the aircraft I don't know.

[Jade_Monkey]

In my experience AI gunners dont fire if their plane is in any sort of turn. Any sort of roll will stop the AI from firing.

Anyone else noticed this?

[Dutchvdm]

In my experience AI gunners dont fire if their plane is in any sort of turn. Any sort of roll will stop the AI from firing.

Anyone else noticed this?

 That's true as well, and that might be somewhat realistic. But the problem with the 110 gunner is that even when flying level he fires way off. What weird is, because just as with the Pe-2 he has a nice firing arc. Unlike the He-111 where the tail is in the way.

 

Grt M

[InProgress]

This is server setting, some servers put Ace on russian gunners while germans get normal...

I had similar thing JAGER_Staiger, AI gunner shot ~1 bullet and it hit me in head through front glass and i died, it was more less 500m. Sometimes this gunner things are so ridiculous :/

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It depends of what level AI was setup by mission designer. I was damaged by 110s gunners no doubt. I hate to attack Pe2 do, those gunners have reflexes of flash.

Edited June 14, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Luftschiff]

In my experience AI gunners dont fire if their plane is in any sort of turn. Any sort of roll will stop the AI from firing.

Anyone else noticed this?

 

I am pretty sure gunners still fire through turns, in fact in the video above with the Pe2 it seems like the gunner is firing even as the aircraft is in a spiral dive and the gunner's halfway inverted. Might depend on the plane and the firing arc though?

[JaffaCake]

I found very little luck with 110 gunners or any LW gunners in general. Give a try with Pe2 - AI sometimes does magic with the lower gunner while the upper gunner is a joy to manually control. And that is not to say that the PE2 rear MGs are incredibly powerful, stray hit or two and  the 109 suddenly has a dead engine. With a bit of practise you can use the gunner while also flying the aircraft with the JS - really fun to then see people complain in chat how the AI shot them down when in reality its all you :D

Edited June 14, 2017 by JaffaCake

[ITAF_Cymao]

Why wonder about the uselessness of German reargunners?
I will wonder when the German reargunners will become useful as Pe2 gunners..
But who plays german bombers doesnt want a game one shot one kill, so we will continue to have Stevie Wonder as reargunners

 

However, these are old controversies. I'd be happy to have at least the chance to fly without unnecessary reargunners and without weapons, so as to be lighter and be faster.

S!
 

[Willy__]

Better off asking Fritz to stay at base with all the ammo to save weight.   

[Thad]

This is server setting, some servers put Ace on russian gunners while germans get normal...

I had similar thing JAGER_Staiger, AI gunner shot ~1 bullet and it hit me in head through front glass and i died, it was more less 500m. Sometimes this gunner things are so ridiculous :/

"This is server setting, some servers put Ace on russian gunners while germans get normal.."

 

Salutations,

If this is indeed correct... why are the server managers doing this? Are they just being bias towards the Russian side?

[Yogiflight]

Might be because of the higher numbers of players flying on the axis side.

[Dutchvdm]

Or just an honest mistake from the mission builder? From what ive read is that it was only on two aircraft.

 

Grt M

[L3Pl4K]

The 110 has a gunner?

[Thad]

LOL. That's the rumor.

[SYN_Mike77]

My experience has always been that the plane you are flying against has outstanding gunners while your own gunner is a waste of meat.  This is true regardless if you are flying against a Pe-2 or a JU 87.  To give some scope to the "problem"  it's even true when you are flying against a Roland or an Re 8!  It's always been this way with this game engine.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Don't let them fly under your tail out of gunners arc
(how to do this - Fly 1-6FT above trees when engaged. (enemy must then fly 5-10ft above trees to chase you and can only shoot if he dive on trees then must pull out again. )

Also gunner can hit him.
 

[Yogiflight]

The funny is, when you attack an IL2, flown by AI, from under its tail, the gunner will, nevertheless, shoot the s..t out of you.

[216th_Jordan]

The funny is, when you attack an IL2, flown by AI, from under its tail, the gunner will, nevertheless, shoot the s..t out of you.

Because the gun can be pointed down to the sides

[Yogiflight]

Yep, to the sides, but not to your low six.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Historical Footage of Bf110 Gunner. Colorized

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

But as far as I can discern the Bf110 Gunner sometimes just Aims away from the Target, nowhere even close to getting the Crosshairs aligned with the Enemy. 

[Yogiflight]

Imagine being one of the two guys sitting in front of the one shooting the machinegun. You surely need a new pair of pants.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

[edited]

 

You cant do that here.

Edited June 16, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I don't now how often you guys are fighting against 110 but recently (was different 1,5 month ago). I agree that before they were very week contrary to Pe2s . But recently I'm often damaged by its gunner when I do attacked from 6 even with big speed advantage. Can't​ say it always Ai doing the job but noticed the difference. It could be that missions builders​ are setting 110 AI to aces. Need to test it on qmb.

Edited June 16, 2017 by 307_Tomcat