Why We Fly What We Fly

[LLv24_Zami]

I fly almost everything. I'm a person who is still trying to learn to level bomb effectively with the he111 or ju88. I know lots of people find it easy, but I find it a real challenge.

 

Level bombing is not exactly my strong points either. Many more misses than hits 

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Yes but the slats in the 109 don't allow you to park the nose up in the air or to magically add energy to an aircraft at stall speed and high AoA. They also don't add nearly the amount of drag as the flaps should when they hang out at 90 degrees.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Today I'm not at home, but tomorrow I'll upload you video record from Berloga where you can see it on your own. 

 

Don't bother.  I'm sure 600 or 700 meter shots happen in this game, and in real life too from time to time.  That's a lot different than what you said, which is that it is a common "problem" bedeviling poor LW pilots implying some kind of flaw in the modeling of Russian gunnery.  Sorry, I think you are greatly exaggerating.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Iceworm

[Brano]

Yes but the slats in the 109 don't allow you to park the nose up in the air or to magically add energy to an aircraft at stall speed and high AoA. They also don't add nearly the amount of drag as the flaps should when they hang out at 90 degrees.

Max angle at which flaps of Yak-1 deploy is 50°

Last time I checked the slats don't defy physics. I guess they should have made them out of wood.

Referring to Yak-1 flaps,ironicly,I suppose. They were made of duraluminium,not wood.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

I'm pretty sure you understand what I meant with the wood. And regardless of what they are made f hanging them out at 50 degrees should cause a lot of drag.

 

As far as shots at 600+ m I think you'd be surprised how often it occurs.

[Feathered_IV]

I fly the JU-52 just to annoy sinned

 

I agree. That really is a huge bonus. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

 I think you'd be surprised how often it occurs.          

 

 

No I wouldn't.  I play the game every day.  If you are routinely getting sniped at 600 meters during your egress, then you might look into rocking your wings a little.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

I do to. And I do move around. But if you move around too much you burn speed and yaks outrun 190s and no matter how much I move I get hit at least once every time I extend. It's not exactly getting sniped but it's more like a fire hose. I've rarely done it in a 109 as well but no where near as frequently as it happens to me.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it?

[Dutchvdm]

Grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it?

 

That's always true. That's why i think it's nice to switch sides after a while.

 

Grt M

[LLv24_Zami]

That's always true. That's why i think it's nice to switch sides after a while.

 

Grt M

This

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Whatever you choose to believe man. I'm not terribly fussed either way.

[Guest deleted@83466]

That's always true. That's why i think it's nice to switch sides after a while.

 

Grt M

 

And on that note, and more in line with the topic title, I have flown the Yaks more than anything else, because that's what I started out flying and therefore the plane I became most comfortable with, but I'm going to try to make it a point to try to fly other planes from both sides more often, no matter how embarrassingly bad it is at first.  It's amazing how easy it is to get locked into one plane type at the exclusion of all the other good ones.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Iceworm

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'd say the thing to do is fly for the other side for a while.

 

Know thine enemy.

 

Also stop whining until after the reworked airflow physics are implemented, then do some valid repeatable testing, and then, an only then, you can come here and whine about FMs.

 

 

As for me I fly both sides, though it has been a while, and usually I fly for the side with the lower numbers on a server, and that normally means I fly for the VVS.  In the original IL2 it meant I flew for Japan a lot.

 

P.S.

 

In my experience flying this title since 2001, people are really poor judges of an opponents energy state,  I mean they are really, really bad at it.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I fly the JU-52 just to annoy sinned

 

GrendelsDad is my spirit animal.

[StG2_Manfred]

Don't bother.  I'm sure 600 or 700 meter shots happen in this game, and in real life too from time to time.  That's a lot different than what you said, which is that it is a common "problem" bedeviling poor LW pilots implying some kind of flaw in the modeling of Russian gunnery.  Sorry, I think you are greatly exaggerating.

 

Yes, same was when the bedeviled poor LW pilots complaint about the FM of the 190, the DM model of all German planes, and the forthcoming overhaul of rudder behaviour in general. Some kind of complex of LW pilots because we just prefer to whine all the time.

 

If the 109 dominates that much in vertical fighting like Finkeren claims, I'm waiting for his video evidence. Otherwise just once more plain talking...

 

And about the 600-700m. Firstly you denied this is happening, now you say this happens from time to time, so I probably just have to wait a little longer? Anyway...

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Look at the spray and pray !

[Tomsk]

In my experience flying this title since 2001, people are really poor judges of an opponents energy state,  I mean they are really, really bad at it.

 

+1

 

I mean who could say for sure, but this is my general feeling with regard to the "Yak-copter" complaints. Perhaps there is a problem with the modelling of that aspect of the Yak ... but also this will happen by just misreading your opponent's energy slightly. And I say this as someone who predominantly flies LW.

 

I used to blame my plane a lot. I could do pretty well sometimes and so I thought I was a Sierra Hotel pilot, and if I died I was rather inclined to blame my plane (or my opponent's plane) rather than my skills. Then I joined a squad ... and one of my squadmates (who was really very good) dueled me in a plane that was undeniably far inferior to the one I was flying ... and he beat me over and over and over again. Since then I learned to question my skills more ... and my plane less. I found I improved a lot after that ... turns out blaming your ride and not your piloting is a really good way to keep you stuck at the same level.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Tomsk

[Beazil]

+1

 

...

Well said.

[Gambit21]

+1

 

I mean who could say for sure, but this is my general feeling with regard to the "Yak-copter" complaints. Perhaps there is a problem with the modelling of that aspect of the Yak ... but also this will happen by just misreading your opponent's energy slightly. And I say this as someone who predominantly flies LW.

 

I used to blame my plane a lot. I could do pretty well sometimes and so I thought I was a Sierra Hotel pilot, and if I died I was rather inclined to blame my plane (or my opponent's plane) rather than my skills. Then I joined a squad ... and one of my squadmates (who was really very good) dueled me in a plane that was undeniably far inferior to the one I was flying ... and he beat me over and over and over again. Since then I learned to question my skills more ... and my plane less. I found I improved a lot after that ... turns out blaming your ride and not your piloting is a really good way to keep you stuck at the same level.

 

Well said indeed.

I've found that if someone is even 10% better than you, and aircraft are equal, they'll beat you 90% of the time.

That's just how it works out.

 

I've had similar humbling experiences as well...dueling someone in like aircraft... and from those experiences learned never to get into a fair fight!

Edited June 13, 2017 by Gambit21

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I fly the He111 and Stuka because bombing is about all I can do in this game. Ju88 is quite a fun beast as well. Never really liked the feel of the Il2 or Pe2 for some reason.

 

Would love to fly fighters, but I can't aim to save my life.

Edited June 13, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I learned to question my skills more ... and my plane less.

And this seems to be the problem with many people when it comes to flight sims.  They never question their own skill set as it is always an FM or DM issue.

 

At least the vocal ones....

 

Well said Tomsk.

[ACG_Invictus]

+1

 

I mean who could say for sure, but this is my general feeling with regard to the "Yak-copter" complaints. Perhaps there is a problem with the modelling of that aspect of the Yak ... but also this will happen by just misreading your opponent's energy slightly. And I say this as someone who predominantly flies LW.

 

I used to blame my plane a lot. I could do pretty well sometimes and so I thought I was a Sierra Hotel pilot, and if I died I was rather inclined to blame my plane (or my opponent's plane) rather than my skills. Then I joined a squad ... and one of my squadmates (who was really very good) dueled me in a plane that was undeniably far inferior to the one I was flying ... and he beat me over and over and over again. Since then I learned to question my skills more ... and my plane less. I found I improved a lot after that ... turns out blaming your ride and not your piloting is a really good way to keep you stuck at the same level.

Outstanding, sir. *two thumbs up*

[ShamrockOneFive]

+1

 

I mean who could say for sure, but this is my general feeling with regard to the "Yak-copter" complaints. Perhaps there is a problem with the modelling of that aspect of the Yak ... but also this will happen by just misreading your opponent's energy slightly. And I say this as someone who predominantly flies LW.

 

I used to blame my plane a lot. I could do pretty well sometimes and so I thought I was a Sierra Hotel pilot, and if I died I was rather inclined to blame my plane (or my opponent's plane) rather than my skills. Then I joined a squad ... and one of my squadmates (who was really very good) dueled me in a plane that was undeniably far inferior to the one I was flying ... and he beat me over and over and over again. Since then I learned to question my skills more ... and my plane less. I found I improved a lot after that ... turns out blaming your ride and not your piloting is a really good way to keep you stuck at the same level.

 

Well said. The first step to being a better pilot is to go through what you've said here, acknowledge your limitations and stop blaming everything else around you. Until then, ego gets far too much in the way to be able to really learn something

[Papas_J0hn]

While I'm still new to BoS/BoM, I enjoy the MiG-3, especially at low/treetop level. This keeps the 109s from diving on me as they risk slamming into the deck   

Once they try to drop in behind me, its a rush zooming through trees in a battle of maneuverability and I enjoy dumping my flaps and watching the 109s zoom right over me

cause 109 pilots don't how to not go fast .   

 

I may not be that skilled yet, but i'll make you work for the kill!

[tailwheel]

Simple: All of them. Usually a month at a time.

[Finkeren]

While I'm still new to BoS/BoM, I enjoy the MiG-3, especially at low/treetop level. This keeps the 109s from diving on me as they risk slamming into the deck

Once they try to drop in behind me, its a rush zooming through trees in a battle of maneuverability and I enjoy dumping my flaps and watching the 109s zoom right over me

cause 109 pilots don't how to not go fast .

 

I may not be that skilled yet, but i'll make you work for the kill!

If you are new to the sim and jump directly into the MiG you have my utmost respect sir. You will end up a very good pilot, if you continue that philosophy (much better than my sorry ass anyway)

[kalbuth]

For what it's worth, we did some quick&dirty testing 2 days ago, F4 vs Yak1. Starting at 1000m, same speed for both planes, climbing vertically (notwithstanding differences in climb turn, we conducted several tests to leverage), both planes ended up hanging @2300m, with the 109 going up there slightly faster. In terms of climbing speed, this seems to be inline with the stated performance charts.

To note that while I was full throttle in the Yak, the 109 had to restrain on the throttle to keep the same speed, so this result is true with a 109 castrated from her maximum combat speed at that altitude.

The dynamic of a dogfight will make this kind of comparisons rather moot, but it gives a general idea.

 

As for "sniping" Yaks, my very poor experience tells me that's mostly a result of situation. Should VVS try at long range sniping? probably not, but I know I do it to force the odds. If I can ping a zooming 109 (that I know I can't reach anymore) with a lucky stray bullet, it may make him react and potentially break his speed advantage, so I try. It's very much complete "if if if" bet, but the 109 is faster and getting out of reach anyway, I don't have most other options (in this case).

If a Yak is doing long range spray&pray, it's because it's the only shoot he can take at that moment. LW pilots don't do it.... because they don't have to. I guess spray&praying in a 109 would result in roughly the same hits. 109 just don't have to try that kind of shots.

[9./JG27DavidRed]

 

Yes, same was when the bedeviled poor LW pilots complaint about the FM of the 190, the DM model of all German planes, and the forthcoming overhaul of rudder behaviour in general. Some kind of complex of LW pilots because we just prefer to whine all the time.

 

If the 109 dominates that much in vertical fighting like Finkeren claims, I'm waiting for his video evidence. Otherwise just once more plain talking...

 

And about the 600-700m. Firstly you denied this is happening, now you say this happens from time to time, so I probably just have to wait a little longer? Anyway...

 

unfortunately this is a very common thing here...it happens on a much more regular basis than in any other sim, which leads me to believe that the overall ballistics are simplified....these shots just happen way too often imo....should they be possible?yes of course, but this should really be the exception rather than the norm...also it looks like there is hardly any drop of the bullets and that over a distance of 700meters...if it was like that in reality, we wouldnt read that fighterpilots were advised to go very close before to shoot...

maybe it also has to do with the funny convergence options we have in game....i think you can turn the slider up to a 1000meters...in which fighter was a convergence of a 1000meters used? i dont know of any...

Edited June 14, 2017 by 9./JG27DavidRed

[Finkeren]

.in which fighter was a convergence of a 1000meters used? i dont know of any...

German Pulkzerstörers did use very long convergence ranges. Not sure if exactly 1000m but not too far off.

 

In any case, it really doesn't matter in the case of a Yak-1b. Convergence is completely inconsequential for accuracy in a plane with center-mounted guns only.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Finkeren

[9./JG27DavidRed]

read my post...i was talking about fighters...

vertical convergence makes a difference in nose mounted guns....

[Finkeren]

read my post...i was talking about fighters...

vertical convergence makes a difference in nose mounted guns....

Not for accuracy. Only ease of aiming, if your enemy just happens to be at or near convergence distance.

[9./JG27DavidRed]

Not for accuracy. Only ease of aiming, if your enemy just happens to be at or near convergence distance.

first you say there is no consequence in changing convergence in nose mounted guns,...and now you say that ease of aiming has nothing to do with accuracy?

show me a document where a russian or german fighter was tuned to a 1000meters convergence, i doubt this was even possible let alone used in practice.

Edited June 14, 2017 by 9./JG27DavidRed

[Tomsk]

first you say there is no consequence in changing convergence in nose mounted guns,...and now you say that ease of aiming has nothing to do with accuracy?

show me a document where a russian or german fighter was tuned to a 1000meters convergence, i doubt this was even possible let alone used in practice.

 

I think you are talking at cross purposes. I believe when Finkeren is talking about accuracy he is talking about dispersion, i.e. how much the fire is spread even if the weapon is aimed perfectly. He is quite right that dispersion is basically unaffected by vertical convergence. When you're talking about accuracy, you're including how easy it is to aim in the right place ... here convergence (including vertical convergence) definitely does make a difference.

[Finkeren]

I think you are talking at cross purposes. I believe when Finkeren is talking about accuracy he is talking about dispersion, i.e. how much the fire is spread even if the weapon is aimed perfectly. He is quite right that dispersion is basically unaffected by vertical convergence. When you're talking about accuracy, you're including how easy it is to aim in the right place ... here convergence (including vertical convergence) definitely does make a difference.

Yep, but at such long distances, a 1000m convergence is really only a benefit to your aim at distances quite close to the convergence (because bullet drop is so significant at those distances) If your convergence is set to 1000m and your target is 800m, your convergence might as well be set to 400m for all the good it does ya.

 

In other words: If you choose to set convergence to 1000m you are pretty much betting on shooting at that exact distance (maybe 100m to each side) and have crap aim at "normal" shooting distances - you can pretty much forget about deflection shooting. 200-500m convergence is far more versatile because at those distances the trajectory is much flatter.

[JaffaCake]

Not sure how people say 109 is more forgiving to fly. Every time I join a dogfight in 109 I end up stalling hard loosing energy and spinning out of control - in contrast - yak1b takes just pulling the stick getting solution and blowing the 109 to smithereens - the additional firepower really really helps and 109 can only match it if it has gunpods - makes it a sitting duck. Engine management in il2 box is barely an afterthought as it is impossible to hurt your engine with incorrect settings and you get warned about mixture and temperatures - plus the 5 minute overheat tolerance really helps to catch up to 109 in a climb with rads closed.

[Gambit21]

Not sure how people say 109 is more forgiving to fly. Every time I join a dogfight in 109 I end up stalling hard loosing energy and spinning out of control - in contrast - yak1b takes just pulling the stick getting solution and blowing the 109 to smithereens.

 

Everyone...

Please give to the Foundation for Disadvantaged 109 Pilots.

Your generous contribution will help those who've been tragically saddled with a different, less capable 109 than

the vast majority of customers.

 

They're so easy to ignore, yet their sad faces convey only the surface of a very deep and incapacitating sorrow.

If you wait...it may be too late. They deserve the same chance that we had - as one of them said to me during a visit

recently "I want a 109 that flies good...sniff"

 

So please - give today.

[Finkeren]

The 109 is a forgiving aircraft. The slats makes it practically impossible to enter an accellerated stall by accident. You have to deliberately ignore ample warning signs, not so much in Yak-1, while it also gives some warning, if you push it just a smidgen too far, it goes tits up.

 

Now being a forgiving plane doesn't mean, that the 109 is easy to pilot. It's very easy to fight in, due to its performance, but compared to the smooth ride of a Fw 190 or Yak, it's not pleasant at all, requiring large control input to just keep steady with lots of shaking and bumping.

[Tomsk]

Please give to the Foundation for Disadvantaged 109 Pilots.

 

Yeah ... or alternatively we could help new pilots rather than mock them ...

 

Not sure how people say 109 is more forgiving to fly. Every time I join a dogfight in 109 I end up stalling hard loosing energy and spinning out of control - in contrast - yak1b takes just pulling the stick getting solution and blowing the 109 to smithereens - the additional firepower really really helps and 109 can only match it if it has gunpods - makes it a sitting duck. Engine management in il2 box is barely an afterthought as it is impossible to hurt your engine with incorrect settings and you get warned about mixture and temperatures - plus the 5 minute overheat tolerance really helps to catch up to 109 in a climb with rads closed.

 

So I do think the Yak is an easier plane for new pilots. Simply because it works better for turn fighting, which is how most new pilots naturally tend to fight. The 109 is also a very strong plane, but it's strength is in energy fighting which definitely does have more of a learning curve to be effective with. I do also agree that technochat does (to some extent) make engine management less of an issue in the Russian planes than it probably was in real life.

[JaffaCake]

Everyone...

Please give to the Foundation for Disadvantaged 109 Pilots.

Your generous contribution will help those who've been tragically saddled with a different, less capable 109 than

the vast majority of customers.

 

They're so easy to ignore, yet their sad faces convey only the surface of a very deep and incapacitating sorrow.

If you wait...it may be too late. They deserve the same chance that we had - as one of them said to me during a visit

recently "I want a 109 that flies good...sniff"

 

So please - give today.

 

 

Sigh... useless sarcasm.

 

I wish 109 was a potent competitor, but right now you just have to BnZ, wish your backside won't get lit up with a burst from your used-to-be victim and if you are lucky to hit (or the target is a newbie) you mostly do no damage. People look at the stats and go in awe - the climb rate!!! the speed!!!. Matters very little when the targets are on the ground and you have to keep shooting that bomber that is about to close the final objective. Good luck running away then...

 

On the other hand yaks get juicy he111 and bf110 and if they get bumped by a 109 you always have an option to burn him down to the ground and if he doesn't give up - finish him off.

Edited June 14, 2017 by JaffaCake