Jaws2002 Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident https://theintercept.com/2017/06/06/fifty-years-later-nsa-keeps-details-of-israels-uss-liberty-attack-secret/ Fifty years ago USS liberty was attacked by Israeli Mirage fighters and torpedo boats in one of the most controversial incidents of the cold war. May the fallen rest in peace . Edited June 8, 2017 by Jaws2002
Rjel Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 It was a stunning story when I first heard it. It still is.
Jaws2002 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) I was shocked when i read this story first time. At that time I was really naive about how things work and I had to look at this story from multiple sources, because i just couldn't believe they are capable of this. Stuff like this happens with scary regularity this days, with this new wars. Edited June 8, 2017 by Jaws2002
Original_Uwe Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 One: No one was murdered, they were killed. There is a difference. Two: Israel paid in the neighborhood of 50,000,000 modern US dollars to the US government and to the families of the casualties. Three: Don't sit around a shooting war and get pissed when a shot comes your way.
Jaws2002 Posted June 9, 2017 Author Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) It's not even worth talking about the official version. And yes. Those men were murdered by people high up above them in the chain of command. Had it been an accident, I would agree with you. But it wasn't. It was an attempt by USA to get into the war, by getting it's ship sunk quick and blame everything on the Egypt. The ship didn't sink, the crew radioed for help, every ship in the area picked up their screams for help and the whole thing was called off. There's even an Israeli pilot who talked. Yeah. Exactly 50 years ago 34 American men were murdered. Edited June 9, 2017 by Jaws2002
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 One: No one was murdered, they were killed. There is a difference. Two: Israel paid in the neighborhood of 50,000,000 modern US dollars to the US government and to the families of the casualties. Three: Don't sit around a shooting war and get pissed when a shot comes your way. An interestingly revisionist take from somebody of which I would expect such a viewpoint. It's not even worth talking about the official version. And yes. Those men were murdered by people high up above them in the chain of command. Had it been an accident, I would agree with you. But it wasn't. It was an attempt by USA to get into the war, by getting it's ship sunk quick and blame everything on the Egypt. The ship didn't sink, the crew radioed for help, every ship in the area picked up their screams for help and the whole thing was called off. There's even an Israeli pilot who talked. Yeah. Exactly 50 years ago 34 American men were murdered. +1
Original_Uwe Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 Happens all the time...happening right now. And that's just it, this is international political norm. The US does really shady stuff a lot if the time, but we're the biggest kid on the block so who is there to cry foul? Remember the Melian dialogue-right is only a question among equals. If these men were murdered then every single soldier killed in action was as well. Those sailors had a mission and were killed in action, not murdered. But glad to see that at least this hasn't taken the normal "Jews start all the worlds wars" line of debate this incident normally brings up.
=TBAS=Sshadow14 Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 Murder is murder..Weather its a Soldier, Hangman, Cop or CivilianKilling someone who does not want to die (mercy killing) is murder Regardless of what laws says (talking about morality not legality)
Jaws2002 Posted June 10, 2017 Author Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) And that's just it, this is international political norm. The US does really shady stuff a lot if the time, but we're the biggest kid on the block so who is there to cry foul? Remember the Melian dialogue-right is only a question among equals. If these men were murdered then every single soldier killed in action was as well. Those sailors had a mission and were killed in action, not murdered. But glad to see that at least this hasn't taken the normal "Jews start all the worlds wars" line of debate this incident normally brings up. Combat causalities are one thing. This people were basically shot in the back by their own leaders, with the help of people they thought as friends. That's murder. People high up in both, US and Israeli governments knew exactly who was on that ship. There were eight Israeli recon flights over that ship the day before. The USS Liberty veterans are still being muzzled and intimidated to this day and their struggle to get justice for those murdered men is still ignored by the US military/government. Here's a full report of what happened , as seen by the men on that ship and complaint of war crimes filled by the USS Liberty veterans with the War commission. Obviously it's being ignored: http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf This thread isn't about "Jews are always the fault" . People in power in US do this with all their allies. They use them liker they used all their allies. Heck all big powers had their time of doing shady stuff. This is just to remember people what happened fifty years ago and raise awareness about stuff that's going on around us every day and the fact that the official story is not always true. It's 2017. There are still many independent news sources on the internet. Always verify the news with independent sources, so you are not completely in Lala land. Edited June 10, 2017 by Jaws2002 1
Original_Uwe Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 Murder is murder.. Weather its a Soldier, Hangman, Cop or Civilian Killing someone who does not want to die (mercy killing) is murder Regardless of what laws says (talking about morality not legality) Agree to disagree then. Murder and killing are two different things. Soldiers fight and die at the behest of their national government, it's what we do. Someone stabbed to death in an alley-murder. Soldier/sailor killed by air attack while on duty? KIA. Morality applies differently to individuals in civilized societies than it does to nation states.
=TBAS=Sshadow14 Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 Agree to disagree then. Murder and killing are two different things. Soldiers fight and die at the behest of their national government, it's what we do. Someone stabbed to death in an alley-murder. Soldier/sailor killed by air attack while on duty? KIA. Morality applies differently to individuals in civilized societies than it does to nation states. No Morality is set in stone (not a religious reference as they ALL Amoral crud anyways) But morality is set (1 Rule for everyone) A police officer killing someone is only a kill and not murder because the government says so.. Heck no its still murder if the guy was innocent. Governments do not have the right to choose whats murder or legal killing or change the definition of it. Anyways who cares Long live the king
II/JG17_HerrMurf Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 We should start a new thread on homicide. A homicide is always the killing of a human being by another human being. Murder, on the other hand, has both a different moral and legal standard contrary to some opinions here. There are also military deaths in war, accidental deaths, manslaughter and justifiable homicide. All are still homicides but none of the latter are murders by any definition. 1
II/JG17_HerrMurf Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) Also, USS Liberty = the fog of war. It was attacked by a weary ally completely stressed out by war and clearly trigger happy. They are of course responsible for the deaths but that doesn't make it intentional by any stretch of the imagination. There were multiple errors committed as is the case in the thousands of friendly fire incidents before and after this one. Multiple courts of inquiry have contributed to or come to the same conclusion. I will never understand why people cling to complicated conspiracy theories when the simpler truth is before them. There is an old axiom that, "Three can keep a secret if two are dead." The inverse of this is; people in actual conspiracies eventually spill their guts. If there was a vast conspiracy someone, by guilty conscience or desire for fame or desire for monetary compensation or some combination of these, would have come forward by now. Edited June 11, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf
DD_Arthur Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 Completely agree with HerrMurf. One other point; Motive. The basis of this 'conspiracy' was to bring US forces into this war? Nonsense. Washington and Tel-Aviv both understood that any direct US intervention in the conflict would result in a similar response from the Soviet Union. After the Israelis took the Golan, the road to Damascus was open but the tanks halted. The absolute last thing either the US or Israel wanted was an outcome that would bring Soviet ground forces into the middle-east.
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