Damage model isn't robust enough

[HagarTheHorrible]

 

 

.......and he got home, although the same might not be said for the entire crew !  As the waist gunners might have said "I'm outta here"

[Riderocket]

One can dream!.. IMHO this sim already has one of the most robust DMs there are.

[JG13_opcode]

A simulation of that fidelity isn't really possible on consumer-grade hardware.

 

Yet.

[HagarTheHorrible]

(Hint). I wasn't being serious. It,s the astonishment that the aircraft pictured still flew.

[Willy__]

 

 

(Hint). I wasn't being serious.

 

Gotta work your sarcasm a bit more, friend.     

[Field-Ops]

I wonder if they even had the chance to say "im outa here". That looks catastrophic. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Song of the future and hardware materials accelerators

[Livai]

You're imaqining things     

[Gunsmith86]

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

heard much about this pic.

There is no hard evidence this actually flew like that.
many say it was done afterwards, There is only eyewitness accounts from random military people and nothing concrete.
Specially considering how much Masses of propaganda were coming out of US from 1940-1946 was staggering.

[LukeFF]

heard much about this pic.

 

There is no hard evidence this actually flew like that.

You should try actually doing some research before making ridiculous comments like that:

 

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-air-force/B17-SWEET-PEA-flak-hit-over-Hung-1944-two-killed.html

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/7001

[HagarTheHorrible]

I expect it didn't look quite so bad in the air (still wouldn't have fancied taking my chances in it though) with a fair bit of collapse or buckling on landing. It's just as much of a miracle that it stayed together when it landed

[Ribbon]

This one is nice!

[Wulf]

This one is nice!FB_IMG_1494225675116.jpg

 

 

Not if you were the tail gunner it wasn't.  Would have taken more than a band-aid or two and a shot of morphine to put him back together again.

[Ribbon]

Not if you were the tail gunner it wasn't. Would have taken more than a band-aid or two and a shot of morphine to put him back together again.

In the pic description it said they were all managed to get home alive.

I save interesting pics like this one;

[19//Moach]

looking at the OPs pictures, I'd conclude that it probably wasn't in THAT bad a shape when it flew back - and then the rough landing from whatever much damage it did have (which must have been jaw-dropping alone on its own) simply made it even less airworthy

 

if it were damaged to that degree in flight, the airflow could very likely have become trapped in that "ginormous hole" (or "holes", it's hard to say) and torn the whole tail off altogether

 

 

but then again, I wouldn't expect the tail controls to be functioning in top shape with any damage that leads to that - so I'd make an educated guess that it had a less than comfortable landing, very probably a one-pointer (the one point being the tail) - and that made it crumple as it dragged on to a full stop

 

which is not a small feat of airmanship - kudos to crew and plane for bringing that plane anywhere other than a crater

 

 

 

edit:

 

 

just read the full story about those pics -- seems my guess wasn't far off at all - it did lose most tail control, and I can only assume sort of crash-landed (though the article doesn't really say how "comfortable" it was) - that may well have made the damage worse...

 

but it's undeniable that: any plane that can survive getting shot dead-on by a "thing that blows T34 turrets off" and actually flies back to land, is one hell of a tough bird

Edited May 19, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Ribbon]

looking at the OPs pictures, I'd conclude that it probably wasn't in THAT bad a shape when it flew back - and then the rough landing from whatever much damage it did have (which must have been jaw-dropping alone on its own) simply made it even less airworthy

 

if it were damaged to that degree in flight, the airflow could very likely have become trapped in that "ginormous hole" (or "holes", it's hard to say) and torn the whole tail off altogether

 

 

but then again, I wouldn't expect the tail controls to be functioning in top shape with any damage that leads to that - so I'd make an educated guess that it had a less than comfortable landing, very probably a one-pointer (the one point being the tail) - and that made it crumple as it dragged on to a full stop

 

which is not a small feat of airmanship - kudos to crew and plane for bringing that plane anywhere other than a crater

LukeFF give links with description, you guessed it right, it snapped during landing!

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

You should try actually doing some research before making ridiculous comments like that:

 

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-air-force/B17-SWEET-PEA-flak-hit-over-Hung-1944-two-killed.html

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/7001

Still not evidence thats only a report from a random person on those links.

I could not find the original accident/incident document or anything.

 

Anyone could have done that dmg with a tank gun then made pics and made up a cool story to make great propaganda piece ..

America was good for this during ww2 (they would have the world believe that b17 won the war alone and was the best bomber, versus reality it was a propaganda Death Trap

Edited May 20, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[Gambit21]

America was good for this during ww2 (they would have the world believe that b17 won the war alone and was the best bomber, versus reality it was a propaganda Death Trap

 

Every nation was good for this during WWII...despite this it always seems to be the Americans that get lambasted for over-claiming etc.

[Ribbon]

Still not evidence thats only a report from a random person on those links.

I could not find the original accident/incident document or anything.

 

Anyone could have done that dmg with a tank gun then made pics and made up a cool story to make great propaganda piece ..

America was good for this during ww2 (they would have the world believe that b17 won the war alone and was the best bomber, versus reality it was a propaganda Death Trap

partly you're right! Look bullet damage around heavily damaged area, now look fuselage damage pattern around damaged area how it is wrinkled, evidence of hard landing. Also follow alignment of a hole on one side to another one, they don't overlay.

while main landing gear is deployed tail one is not, again hard landing.

all that damage and hole isn't result of enemy fire, plane was damaged but not that much until it crash landed without tail gear, if you look closely at shredded parts they are not so damaged and does not have bullet holes. 

I guess it had damaged and weakened airframe from enemy fire and when landed without tail wheel it just snapped. they didn't lie, they just didn't said whole story and details.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Why people believe in their own conspiracy theories as opposed to documentation, science, research, etc is fascinating in and of itself.

[HagarTheHorrible]

What I want to know is, was the ball gunner still in his ball, was he alive, was he happy about the possibility of his turret being used as a temporary tail wheel, with him in it ?

[Gunsmith86]

Still not evidence thats only a report from a random person on those links.

I could not find the original accident/incident document or anything.

 

Anyone could have done that dmg with a tank gun then made pics and made up a cool story to make great propaganda piece ..

America was good for this during ww2 (they would have the world believe that b17 won the war alone and was the best bomber, versus reality it was a propaganda Death Trap

 

If that B-17 would be the only one that had so much damage but there are so many of them that these stories cant be made up out of fantasy.

 

1st Lt. Lawrence DeLancey managed to get his B-17 back to England after a direct hit by flak killed two of his crew over Cologne, Germany.

 

The B-17 "All American" (414th Squadron, 97BG) flown by Lieutenant Kendrick R. Bragg, its tail section almost severed by a collision with an enemy fighter, flew 90 minutes back to its home base, landed safely and broke in two after landing.

 

 

his ball turret shows the effect of a 20mm shell which exploded against the faceplate. The gunner was wounded, but survived the jarring blast.

 

A rocket attack blasted open the radio room of B-17 #42-31968 LN:D on the Lechfeld mission of March 18, 1944. Despite this damage the aircraft was brought back safely and landed at Raydon.

 

 

 

B-17 was hit by an 88mm shell , blasting a special radio operator and the ball turret gunner in his turret out of the aircraft.

 

On October 15, 1944 "Little Miss Mischief" took a flak hit on the left side near the ball turret. The blast threw the right waist gunner to the floor, with shrapnel in his foot. See the next photo for another view of this hit.

 

 

the damage was received on a mission to Hannover Germany on Dec. 6, 1944. The hole was caused by a direct hit with an 88 mm.anti-aircraft shell. The 88 went completely through the wing severing one of the main spars and exploded above the plane.

 

 

A B17-G that made it to Sweden. The ship in the picture is #42-102905 "905" from the 748th SQ 457th BG. The date for this landing was the October 7, 1944 and the target was Politz in Poland. The damage to the tail is said to have been inflicted by an 88 shell that didn't explode, but just passed right through the elevator. Other damage included a hit in the nose compartment, two engines knocked out, radio destroyed, no brakes, and ruptured fueltanks. One airman was killed and the bombardier was mortally wounded. The navigator was hit by fragments and went into shock. The day after they counted over 70 holes in the plane. "905" was later scrapped on the airfield were it landed.

[HagarTheHorrible]

The person I pity is the chief washer upper, or at least his minions. Not a lovely job.

[Lusekofte]

The B 17 had amazing quality to return with a lot of damage, it seems that as long as it did not go into a spin or a heavy roll it would be able to return. In picture and films you can see many not that lucky, with no distant visible damage they go into a spin, stall or roll and perish. 

I read that it could only bank to a certain angle before it became uncontrollable, and of course a bomber should not need to, but in combat they might get blasted by shock waves and air pockets 

[Rjel]

I'd imagine when those clips show a bomber rolling over like that either the control surfaces or cables have been hit, rendering the plane uncontrollable. Or the pilots themselves have been disabled and no longer controlling the A/C.

[LukeFF]

Still not evidence thats only a report from a random person on those links.

I could not find the original accident/incident document or anything.

 

Anyone could have done that dmg with a tank gun then made pics and made up a cool story to make great propaganda piece ..

America was good for this during ww2 (they would have the world believe that b17 won the war alone and was the best bomber, versus reality it was a propaganda Death Trap

 

Yes, because the USAAF had nothing better to do than to deliberately damage its own planes with tanks for propaganda purposes. 

 

Oh, as for evidence: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=100937543 and https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=109643480

 

 

 

Those are the gravestones of Elmer H Buss and James E Totty, the gunners who you don't believe died that day in that B-17. So, can we stop these idiotic conspiracy theories now?

Edited May 20, 2017 by LukeFF

[Rjel]

Great website of U.S. aircraft by serial number.

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_2.html

 

Below is the information on B-17 Sweet Pea.

 

"38078 delivered Denver Dec 6, 1943, Savannah Dec 23, 1943. Assigned to 347th BS, 99th BG Jan 7, 1944.

					Transferred to 429th BS, 2nd BG at Amendola Mar 28, 1944. Named "Sweet Pea". Suffered direct 					hit by flak Sep 21, 1944 on mission to Debreczen, Hungary, killing 2 crewmen and wounding two.  					Pilot was able to bring it home and landed safely at home base at Amendola, Italy.  Aircraft was 					repaired and flew again, ending its career as a hack aircraft.  FortLog has the plane 					crashlanding at Bari, Italy Jun 1, 1945 and being destroyed by fire."

Here is a link to a page of U.S. aircraft losses. I didn't explore it thoroughly but it also mentions Sweet Pea's final disposition.

 

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AARmonthly/Jun1945O.htm

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Alright guys knock it off. Don't let these pesky facts get in the way of opinion.