Are the FDM updates comming this week ?

[ZachariasX]

let me rephrase my statement:

Do other user with the SAITEK X52 Pro have a big wobbling problem as me? 

I had justthe "Saitek problem" with the X-52. Pots dying all the time.

 

But with the X-52(pro) as well as with the X-56, I use the weakest spring setting possible. Otherwise, the stick centers much too solid, making you use enough force to move it at all such that small, precise movements (everything you need for good aiming) are impossible. This system may be simple and reliable for centering the stick but for fight sims like BoX, I find it very suboptimal. It gives a very bad feeling having the stick centerd and just moving it 3° requires about the same force as moving it all the way.

[Quax]

Any spring loaded stick has the problem, that it centers the stick at a point, where the elevators are deflected. That means, you need a force to keep it in the "trimmed position" - but you never know where this position is. If you trim this force away with the stabalizer (109), you don't get the elevator into the neutral position ! You just move your stab out of trim to need no force on your spring with your deflected elevator.

 

With a FFB stick the situation is totally different, and the same as in RL. It centers to the non deflected position of the elevator (or exactly the no force position of the elevator) which is never corresponding with the center of the stick. If you relaxe your hand now, it will not change the pitch.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Quax

[Guest deleted@50488]

Any spring loaded stick has the problem, that it centers the stick at a point, where the elevators are deflected. That means, you need a force to keep it in the "trimmed position" - but you never no where this position is. If you trim this force away with the stabalizer (109), you don't get the elevator into the neutral position ! You just move your stab out of trim to need no force on your spring with your deflected elevator.

 

With a FFB stick the situation is totally different, and the same as in RL. It centers to the non deflected position of the elevator (or exactly the no force position of the elevator) which is never corresponding with the center of the stick. If you relaxe your hand now, it will not change the pitch.

Well, I have made tests in the past using the 109 with  it's stabilator-based pitch trim, and with aircraft which have a movable trim tab in the elevator.

 

Let's say I trim my 109 to fly - more or less.. -  straigh & level at a given powser setting / speed / AoA. If I look at the stck while stabilator is being moved by the trim tab, at the extremes of it the elevator can indeed move too, although under a good deal of corse it stays put, as opposed to aircraft where a trim tab is installed and operated by the pitch trim, which effectively deflects the elevator, whcih can then be observed in the stick inside the cockpit.

 

In either case, if I then "perturb" the stick, by pushing or pulling it and then releasing it to "neutral" in the joystick, the return of the virtual stick happens also into the trimmed position, so, there is no induced deflection.

 

The aircraft wobbles in this case, just as it probably wobbles also for those using a FFB joystick.

 

This wobbling in pitch is, IMO,  related to the static stability and damping, and how it is modeled in IL.2 presently...

Edited May 23, 2017 by jcomm

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

I had justthe "Saitek problem" with the X-52. Pots dying all the time.

 

But with the X-52(pro) as well as with the X-56, I use the weakest spring setting possible. Otherwise, the stick centers much too solid, making you use enough force to move it at all such that small, precise movements (everything you need for good aiming) are impossible. This system may be simple and reliable for centering the stick but for fight sims like BoX, I find it very suboptimal. It gives a very bad feeling having the stick centerd and just moving it 3° requires about the same force as moving it all the way.

 

I am considering buying the Warthog 

[schurem]

I have a Logitech g940 set that is by no means a good stick. It needs at least a 5 percent deadzone but it don't make me wobble. He'll I can even saw the wings off of overshooting messers in my ilyusha

[Inkophile]

I am considering buying the Warthog 

 

Although the Warthog is high-quality, solid, heavy niceness it is also - in my opinion - too stiff for props, at least if used without a pretty long extension. I love my Warthog, but it can be bloody exhausting to fly with it because you ALWAYS need to fight the stick to hold small elevator and roll corrections. Not a problem with fly-by-wire jets, but with props it can be a chore. Especially for chums like me who don't have the physical space to use extensions.

[19//Moach]

the wobble can be reduced by a high end joystick - but that's not actually fixing the problem itself... 

 

users with mid-quality joysticks (x55 or x52 non-pro) will not experience this same wobbling in other sims, such as CloD or 1946 - this is because the waggy-dance is a unique "trait" of this series - and has been acknowledge as a problem long ago

 

that being exactly why a full FM revision is being worked on in the first place (amongst various other aerodynamical oddities)

 

 

some users refuse to believe that non-wobbly sims are "more correct" than this one is - but I've flown real planes before, and I do not recall any wobbling on them - even when I was handed full control by the instructor and proceeded to exemplify the degree of coordination expected of a noob with no more realistic experience than M$FS flown with a twisty-grip... (that was a long time ago, I had never used proper rudder pedals up until then)

 

so even with my lack of familiarity with using my legs for rudder at the time, and the resulting sloppiness* in coordination displayed until a little practice kicked in - the plane did not wobble in such a way as seen here

 

* to be fair, the trainer (glider) we flew then had a not-completely-standard pedal arrangement, in which pushing the rudder felt more like the movement of toe-brakes, and that took some extra getting used to... so it was a bit tricky at first to keep that damn streamer pointed at my face (gliders don't normally use level balls for turn coordinators, ours had the pitot right in front of the canopy, and our "slip ball" was just a piece of string tied to it)

 

 

anyways - even when noob-crabbing profusely, the real plane would not exhibit any tendency to toss back and forth once controls were straightened, or to chase after in lag of pilot inputs -- in fact, all axes felt considerably more firm and all controls had a result that felt almost instantaneous, there was no brief "push/pull and wait to see what it does" slack moments as many of the planes in BoX depict (all, really - severity varying) 

 

more recently, I've tested out some known-to-be-unstable designs in KSP (of all things) - using a mod which simulates airflow by voxel simulation around the final model (x-plane style), providing an enormously more advanced flight experience than the default game offers -- even those designs then proved devoid of similar wobble, and instead responded more like I remember the real planes did back in the day before they got too expensive to continue pursuing

 

 

this combines with my host of other simulators to further prove the point, most notable among them, the stuff of A2A for FSX - folks so dedicated to realism they go as far as analyzing engine vibrations in flight with the real plane (which they own) by rigging it full of instruments tied to a laptop -- their very reputable products also, do not "wobble" nor "slack"

 

 

I am thus fairly confident, from my experience alone (not even counting the many real certified pilots here who have also confirmed this) - real planes do not wobble or slack like they do in this sim - and the FM update is thus very certainly justified 

 

 

therefore sadly, it cannot be said that this is the pinnacle of advanced simulation some have claimed, not in its current state

 

sure, in some regards it exceeds many other titles out there to a fair degree, and this is well worthy of praise - but there are inherent shortcomings to it which I find impossible to dismiss as "trivial" - and this puts a lot of it's well due praise on hold, pending on the update which implements these solutions in the released product

 

 

thus, this is potentially the best sim out there -- but not just yet....

Edited May 24, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Riderocket]

users with mid-quality joysticks (x55 or x52 non-pro) will not experience this same wobbling in other sims, such as CloD or 1946 - this is because the waggy-dance is a unique "trait" of this series - and has been acknowledge as a problem long ago

 

I believe the wobblies have come from Rise of Flight, not 1946 or CloD, because BoX uses a different Game Engine (same as RoF) Edited May 24, 2017 by Riderocket

[19//Moach]

I believe the wobblies have come from Rise of Flight, not 1946 or CloD, because BoX uses a different Game Engine (same as RoF)

 

yes, that is probably where it originated... though I have not played RoF itself - many have said there was wobble too

 

 

hopefully BoX is where it ends then

[Guest deleted@50488]

the wobble can be reduced by a high end joystick - but that's not actually fixing the problem itself... 

 

users with mid-quality joysticks (x55 or x52 non-pro) will not experience this same wobbling in other sims, such as CloD or 1946 - this is because the waggy-dance is a unique "trait" of this series - and has been acknowledge as a problem long ago

 

that being exactly why a full FM revision is being worked on in the first place (amongst various other aerodynamical oddities)

 

 

some users refuse to believe that non-wobbly sims are "more correct" than this one is - but I've flown real planes before, and I do not recall any wobbling on them - even when I was handed full control by the instructor and proceeded to exemplify the degree of coordination expected of a noob with no more realistic experience than M$FS flown with a twisty-grip... (that was a long time ago, I had never used proper rudder pedals up until then)

 

so even with my lack of familiarity with using my legs for rudder at the time, and the resulting sloppiness* in coordination displayed until a little practice kicked in - the plane did not wobble in such a way as seen here

 

* to be fair, the trainer (glider) we flew then had a not-completely-standard pedal arrangement, in which pushing the rudder felt more like the movement of toe-brakes, and that took some extra getting used to... so it was a bit tricky at first to keep that damn streamer pointed at my face (gliders don't normally use level balls for turn coordinators, ours had the pitot right in front of the canopy, and our "slip ball" was just a piece of string tied to it)

 

 

anyways - even when noob-crabbing profusely, the real plane would not exhibit any tendency to toss back and forth once controls were straightened, or to chase after in lag of pilot inputs -- in fact, all axes felt considerably more firm and all controls had a result that felt almost instantaneous, there was no brief "push/pull and wait to see what it does" slack moments as many of the planes in BoX depict (all, really - severity varying) 

 

more recently, I've tested out some known-to-be-unstable designs in KSP (of all things) - using a mod which simulates airflow by voxel simulation around the final model (x-plane style), providing an enormously more advanced flight experience than the default game offers -- even those designs then proved devoid of similar wobble, and instead responded more like I remember the real planes did back in the day before they got too expensive to continue pursuing

 

 

this combines with my host of other simulators to further prove the point, most notable among them, the stuff of A2A for FSX - folks so dedicated to realism they go as far as analyzing engine vibrations in flight with the real plane (which they own) by rigging it full of instruments tied to a laptop -- their very reputable products also, do not "wobble" nor "slack"

 

 

I am thus fairly confident, from my experience alone (not even counting the many real certified pilots here who have also confirmed this) - real planes do not wobble or slack like they do in this sim - and the FM update is thus very certainly justified 

 

 

therefore sadly, it cannot be said that this is the pinnacle of advanced simulation some have claimed, not in its current state

 

sure, in some regards it exceeds many other titles out there to a fair degree, and this is well worthy of praise - but there are inherent shortcomings to it which I find impossible to dismiss as "trivial" - and this puts a lot of it's well due praise on hold, pending on the update which implements these solutions in the released product

 

 

thus, this is potentially the best sim out there -- but not just yet....

 

I fully subscribe all of your points - could have been written by me :-)

 

With more than 32 years flying for real, gliders, I assure you the wobbling is completely irrealistic.... and the same goes for  the roll-yaw coupling, but, at the same time, and even if I use another combat sim with great flight dynamics too, the closest to the feel of flight and being there is still provided by this series ... IL.2 Battle of...

[216th_Jordan]

Very much depends indeed on the physical stick you're using, on the stick settings (higher sensitivity gives you more smoothness), and on how you use that stick (preferably light-hand).

I've been using a T Flight Hotas X for years, just to realize finally that nothing helps, the huge 17% deadzone in the center makes it impossible to fly and to aim without serious wobbling (even with the pots replaced with Hall sensors). Recently I changed to a 15 years old MS Sidewinder FFB, and my hit percentage literally doubled, although I reduced sensitivity to 60%. I'm still not a marksman, and I'm still having some wobbling, but this is largely due to my undisciplined hands over-controlling in the fury of fight.

Don't use deadzones or maybe a maximum of 4%.

[coconut]

Regarding wobbling: My joystick, a thrustmaster t16000-m, failed to calibrate itself properly one day. I did not notice until I took off in my bf-110. I had to keep the stick pushed and to the left to keep it "centered". Beside being very uncomfortable, it was also very stable. It seems that excessively hard spring-based centering is part of the problem.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, allow me to make something clear about my evaluation of IL.2 Battle of... since I started the thread because I wasn't even aware of Jason having commented on the FDM update being due sometime along 2017 "only"...

 

- I still consider IL.2 Battle of flight dynamics and overall physics modelling the most advanced I've been able to experience in the many PC based flightsims I've used as a simmer since the early 90s, my only "complain" being that I wanted it to become a civil flight sim, modelling my preferred GA aircraft, specially aerobatic models, and allowing me and other users to be able to profit from the quality of IL.2 flight dynamics modelling in the sort of use we prefer to give to a flight simulator...

 

- I find the rate at which the IL.2 dev and PR teams deliver content to the user community as examplar among the many platforms and developers I had to deal with along my simmer journey, and I consider their honesty, in many aspects, even when Han was feeling not so good about some of the user's comments and wrote some more Human words in response. Admiting they had found some opportunity to fine tune their flight dynamics engine to bring the quality and feel of the aircraft to even higher standards is something we do not see in any other platform !

 

- I am willing to wait as much as they need for that or any other update that can bring an even better experience than that already provided by this extraordinary Combat Flight Simulator, which has actually become my only Combat Flight SImulator after a long scrutiny ...

 

Every detail 1C/777 has been bringing, almost twice a month, in average, to the user community, is simply remarkable and worth our recognition.

Hear, hear!

Edited May 24, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[A_radek]

@Moach

 

Could you please name an aircraft you consider woblier than most? Sadly I lack the time to get familiar with many of them. And is it mostly yaw axis you are referring to?

 

Before bikes took over my life I spent many hours in gliders. Nice to see others here!

[sniperton]

Don't use deadzones or maybe a maximum of 4%.

I don't use any deadzone -- whenever I have the choice. My point is that some sticks have a deadzone no matter what settings you use. The deadzone is enforced by the firmware and cannot be changed via software.

T Flight Hotas X has a deadzone of 17% of the full deflection range (ca. +/- 8% around the center). This had been reduced to 6% (+/- 3%) in the new model T Flight Hotas 4, which is largely the same as what good old MS FFB2 has.

[19//Moach]

I don't use any deadzone -- whenever I have the choice. My point is that some sticks have a deadzone no matter what settings you use. The deadzone is enforced by the firmware and cannot be changed via software.

T Flight Hotas X has a deadzone of 17% of the full deflection range (ca. +/- 8% around the center). This had been reduced to 6% (+/- 3%) in the new model T Flight Hotas 4, which is largely the same as what good old MS FFB2 has.

 

a joystick would have to have zero physical deadzone to be considered above middle-range or above...

 

the X52 and the X55/X56 both have that feature, however, they lack the sturdy construction necessary to ensure full precision, and thus qualify only as middle-range...

 

the X55pro, has a very well built gimbal (albeit plastic) and a dual set of Hall Effect sensors, for extra precision - it still has the infamous "saitek centering dome" spring arrangement, so without additional user lubrication (I recommend chapstick) it tends to grip a bit

 

I consider the X52pro to be a high-end stick, due to it's game-changing precision (and fluidness, with proper lubrication) - alas, they don't make them anymore

 

now - this makes a world of difference to one's combat effectiveness (I literally felt myself become less competitive when I traded my defunct 6-year-veteran x52pro to the x55) - no matter how much practice you get, you are ultimately only as good as your hardware allows -- the other big factors are FPS and ping (even slight stuttering can cause a state of subtle incapacitation that is analogous to being several bottles drunk)

 

 

however - while all of this helps you FIGHT the wobbles, it doesn't solve the problem that - in reality, you shouldn't have to - at least, not as hard

 

other sims, like CloD can be flown with a middle-range stick with an effectiveness similar to that of a high-end one in this series -- a high-end stick in CloD is then more of a comfort feature, and less a sheer necessity than it is here

 

 

for now - I just stick to planes that wobble the least, such as the IL2.... the one which has it the worse, of course, is the P40, for it already was know historically to do that - with the unhistorical amount added by the game on top, it can be nigh on uncontrollable in some conditions - and can actually be induced to wobble itself into a fully developed spin, by the rigors of combat flying

 

if you want a more frontline-grade example - try flying the MiG - it can be very waggly as well (with that short tail and being mostly all engine)

 

 

a good example of "slack" and of wobble too, but one that happens to remain effective even with it - is the Peshka... probably because it's a bomber, the kind of steady nose flying that would defeat the purpose of a pure fighter has less an effect on it -- but it is actually one of the wobbliest planes in the game, just try and hold close formation with it - you'll find it benefits greatly from a generous sensitivity curve on your inputs

[HagarTheHorrible]

Can't be arsed reading through the rest of the thread to see if it's already been asked so please forgive me if it has.

 

Presumably any new aircraft releases will have the new FM straight off the bat, the Spitfire for example or even the just released Il2 ?

Edited May 26, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Can't be arsed reading through the rest of the thread to see if it's already been asked so please forgive me if it has.

 

Presumably any new aircraft releases will have the new FM straight off the bat, the Spitfire for example or even the just released Il2 ?

 

No, they're all being released with the old model.

 

When the new model is ready for all of the aircraft they'll be updated simultaneously.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Ok, cheers.

[JG13_opcode]

Can't be arsed reading through the rest of the thread to see if it's already been asked so please forgive me if it has.

 

Presumably any new aircraft releases will have the new FM straight off the bat, the Spitfire for example or even the just released Il2 ?

Certain elements of the flight model are no doubt common to all aircraft, that is to say they are part of the game engine.

 

For example the function that calculates rudder side force is most likely not custom for each plane. It just has different inputs based on geometry, speed, etc.

Edited May 26, 2017 by JG13_opcode