How on earth do you fight a Yak-1

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Pretty much what MAD Pinko and tripwire said.

 

I'll take advice from a .6 kd pilot who tries to dogfight at the limit of performance over a BnZ lord at 5k who runs away every time he doesn't have 100% advantage. Sure it's 'smart' but you don't get a feeling for how much you can squeeze out of an airplane.

 

Obviously dogfighting yaks at low altitude puts you at a disadvantage at low altitudes. It is and should be very difficult. However it would be nice if yak pilots actually had to use the rudder, and didn't get energy +10 for popping flaps. The way both of these things are handled feel almost arcadey to me. The only thing you have to watch for in the yak is pulling too hard, which once you find the limit isn't terribly difficult. That and knowing when to throw the flaps out.

 

Without flaps it all feels fairly plausible to me.

 

Not trying to insult anyone here nor do I want some sort of massive VVS nerf so I can go around clubbing seals in a 109 but from flying the yaks and flying against them those are some things that just don't make sense to me.

Edited June 29, 2017 by 9./JG27DefaultFace

[Ribbon]

Not sure I understand this correctly. My online experience with a 109 against a Yak, both planes in a vertical loop fight, you need to disengage when flying the 109 after just two loops otherwise it's game over for the 109 especially if the Yak engages flaps. Its vertical turn rate appears substantially better.

My experience flying both 109 and yak tell me yak will drain energy faster than 109 in vertical turns/loops (it has better response at cost of energy) and it's not just energy drain also gaining speed, i think devs implemented that very good looking at aerodynamic design of wings and planes overall.

109's wing shape you can find on modern propeler driven a/c.

[JG27*Kornezov]

The 109s should not forget that statistically the german side and the russian side are dispersed differently regarding the altitude. There are always more 109s up high who actually do nothing compared to VVS pilots.

So when going low and dirty the Germans are almost always outnumbered in the action points even if in the Liberty server it says that there are 15 more germans in the server.

That means it is very difficult to engage in turn-fight and not getting bounced by anybody. The matter is even worse with a complete stream of incoming planes as the planes supply is unlimited.

 

The difference is small but it is there. A poor pilot could not take advantage of it. But is is easier to take advantage of the Yak strong point than from the 109.

 

Regarding the Yaks, they have a better wing loading. That means that they are better handling Gs at corner speed and get slightly better sustained turn rates.

The 109 can have a better thrust to weight ratio which dictates how you should fly. And it is much more complicated to get advantage of it and why it is so fun to play the game actually.

 

Regarding the flaps. Theoretically at slow speed below 250 km/h  the 109 (thanks of the slats) should outurn with flaps the Yak with flaps. Does is happen? I think no.

Personally I find 109 with deployed flaps a dead meat.

 

So a pure G contest regarding who can pull harder on the stick is a big no no for the 109 pilots. And as this is the first thing people intuitively do or learn that explains why it is so hard for the 109 pilots.
It is the same like learning how to do MMA fights reading forums. Sure it helps but...

Edited June 29, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[StG2_Manfred]

This "pedantry" is pretty important for 2 reasons:

 

1. It betrays the fact, that you (and many others) hardly ever fly the Yak in MP, but are simply making assumptions about what a Yak pilot actually does. This makes it very hard for me to take any complaint seriously, because it is literally impossible to adequately evaluate one aircraft's performance in combat against another without flying both.

 

2. The complaint about the Yak-1 is not merely, that it is able to do things, it shouldn't be doing (some of which is hard to test, but is always worth discussing) It is also the assumption, that getting the Yak to perform this way is ridiculously easy and really just comes down to dropping flaps and yanking the stick back as hard as you can. All 100% false. The same goes for the notion, that the Yak somehow remains fully controllable during a stall, not true either, and people who actually fly the Yak would know this.

 

Because you are accusing GridiroN not to fly the Yak in MP and many others here often complain that the Lufties should test the other side, I prepared a little grid from WoL stats of the last 2 month with some names (a random selection) which participated here in this thread.

 

It turns out that you (and Silas) are the only ones which have not a single record in MP on this server. So what does this say about you? You do not make only assumptions or you are actually knowing what you are speaking about? Who can take you seriously? 

 

And the statement 'test the other side' can be applied for others as well. Go and make some kills in the (far superior) 109s and 190s and let your statistics speak for you!

Edited June 29, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[Ribbon]

Because you are accusing GridiroN not to fly the Yak in MP and many others here often complain that the Lufties should test the other side, I prepared a little grid from WoL stats of the last 2 month with some names which participated here in this thread.

 

It turns out that you (and Silas) are the only ones which have not a single record in MP on this server. And the statement 'test the other side' can be applied for others as well. Go and make some kills in the (far superior) 109s and 190s and let your statistics speak for you!

Just recently i started fly on WoL(if you can check my flight hours on that server) so my statistic are irrelevant, you can find me on finnish server with LF and VVS sign beside my nick.

However i must admit i used more 190 than 109 but SP is 90% 109 and almost never VVS (at least until new career mode and bok arrives).

 

Edit: you should check dates before 2month ago on any server, i flew LF 100% and almost never VVS

Edited June 29, 2017 by redribbon

[Finkeren]

Manfred: I get where you're coming from. Of course I should not speak of these things without flying the "other side of the equation". While people might accuse me of being a dyed-in-the-wool VVS fanboi, I actually fly LW fighters more than VVS these days, I just love the Fw 190 now that I can actually fly it. I have flown the 109 quite a lot too, because I prefer to help balance the teams online, though not as much recently.

 

Just for your sake I vow to fly only 109 online until the next update, except if forced to switch teams because of imbalance.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Here are my Creds, Wings of Liberty is Cancer, so I rarely ever go there. We either fly on our Private Server or Random Expert. And I fly as defensively as possible, so I rarely kill. http://72ag-ded.ru/en/pilot/78/6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann/?tour=9

Currenty Ju-52 is my Favourite apparently. 

 

In SP I perform Tests as Objectively as possible, found that for the Yak for example Turn Times don't change with Flaps, but Radius is Reduced and there is a Short Burst of Corner Angle until the Speed Drops too far and raising Flaps after a Level Turn Kills Manouverability. 

The 109 is at a Disadvantage coming from an equal Energy State, since the Yak can turn at lower Speeds it can waste more Speed into Turn than the 109. The Yak is best around 240-250, the 109s between 270 and 300, and fly a larger Circle.

 

However, this also means that  theoretically an Advantage could be gained by entering a Turn to Reduce the Yaks Speed and then use your 109s higher Speed to gain seperation in the Vertical in a Spiral Climb. 

 

One thing I found can't be right is that the Yak at 700kph has the same Rate of Sink as a Fw190, so from 2500m to 500m a Fw190 or 109 can't gain significant seperation maintaining 700kph constant. 

So there may be an Issue with the Wing Polar of the Yak, in that the Profile induces too little Drag at High Speed. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Finkeren]

Klaus: That is one of the points that I think might be valid about the Yak, and in my experience the LaGG-3 too: When going above their nominal top speed on full power, they lose airspeed very slowly, perhaps too slow, making it easy to catch a German plane coming out of a dive with just a bit of deflection.

 

Taking a wild guess, might this have something to do with the propeller being too effective at high speeds?

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Wasn't there a post some time ago about how all the propellers were modeled fairly similarly, but the devs got their hands on new VDM data about the metal props on German aircraft and wanted to redo some stuff? Or am I just imagining that?

[JG27*Kornezov]

6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann very good points. I had an interesting squad versus squad fights 2 fw 190 versus top pilots with 3 yak 1 b flying as a team.

 

The 2 fw 190 could not get an advantage with dives zooms and repositions. And when we  get defensive they can dive with the 190s.

 

Things changed when I switched to 109 f4. Then the Yaks could not use their mock defensive turns. If they did  they started loosing parts as the 109 can make  devastating deflection shots. And the yak that turned hard allowed the fw 190 to gain energy upper hand and allowed a kill afterwards.

 

In the old il2 46 game, 2 FW 190 properly flown were superior to 3 Yaks 1b, but here the yak is very fast and being light has tremendous zoom and dive  capabilities. After a dive the yak maintains his inertia for a long long time, which I would not expect for its air-frame. 

 

So right now maybe 1 109 f4 and 1 FW 190 is a better combination than 2 FW190?

Edited June 29, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, I think it's still somewhere in the FM Section, but a Fw190 at 1.3ata took about 60 Seconds from 2500-500m, the Yak the same, actually it was the Best Russian Plane as far as I remember. The 190s were very slightly better than the 109s, but just barely noticable/measurable. The Yak-69, despite being lighter was actually better than even LaGG-3 which I thought must beat the Yak. 

 

I'll have to repeat the Test though after the upcoming Update. I think there will be quite a number of Surprises waiting with the new Rudder Modelling. I think I'll include all Aircraft with forward facing Guns, except Il-2 because of the Low Maximum Dive Speed. 

Will be outdated. 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25487-ingame-dive-comparison-700kph-more-interesting-you-think/

Edited June 29, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Ribbon]

6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann very good points. I had an interesting squad versus squad fights 2 fw 190 versus top pilots with 3 yak 1 b flying as a team.

The 2 fw 190 could not get an advantage with dives zooms and repositions. And when we get defensive they can dive with the 190s.

Things changed when I switched to 109 f4. Then the Yaks could not use their mock defensive turns. If they did they they started loosing parts as the 109 can make a devastating deflection shots. And the yak that turned hard allowed the fw 190 to gain energy.

 

In the old il2 46 game, 2 FW 190 properly flown were superior to 3 Yaks 1b, but here the yak is very fast and being light has tremendous zoom and dive capabilities. After a dive the yak maintains his inertia for a long long time, which I would not expect for his air-frame.

Yak-1b following fw190 in dive will lose it's both ailerons, if you're lucky you'll lose only one. But yeah on equal energy and alt yak 1b is winner if played smart.

I flew a lot fw190 on finnish vp and tactic was climb on high alt and search victims, once you find it boom and zoom.

When yak on six dive if he follows than quickly go from dive in climb and yak ailerons will crack, or use full boost and climb away. Beautifull plane.

Every plane has it's advantages and disadvantages and if not used right and with right tactics it's useless.

So comparing planes on low alt and only in turns or opposite is pointless and that's where this thread is going.

Rule no.1 climb climb climb

[JG27*Kornezov]

I will test the crack theory thanks redribbon. But I am talking about the real deal, team versus team co-energy engagements not the casual lonely boom and zoom. At high altitude it matters more theoretically which plane (and team) can conserve energy better after climbs and dives (series of high and low yo-yo's) and not which plane has the better sustained climb.

US plane like  p47 has a terrible sustained climb but can zoom climb much better than the paper planes.

 

In some regards in Warthunder this kind of pure energy zooms are simulated probably better LOL. Actually it is there where I enjoyed my best energy fights, loosing light 109's with zooms in p47.

 

In il 2 46 the 109 g2 had the same zoom climb as the p 47 which was ridiculous (zoom climb is very different from sustained climb).

 

So to keep short the most basic zoom climb energy tactic is not working against a yak. The 109 can have a better sustained climb. However the 190 cannot count on its zoom capabilities. Still working on it.

 

Maybe they should not fix the yak because it will have no chance. I am happy as the game is, I do not complain about the yak flaps, I just know how to exploit that (since several patches it was silently fixed). And I do not complain about 109 instability. I do not experience it since several patches ago (silently fixed).

Edited June 29, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[Ribbon]

I will test the crack theory thanks redribbon. But I am talking about the real deal, team versus team co-energy engagements not the casual lonely boom and zoom. At high altitude it matters more theoretically which plane (and team) can conserve energy better after climbs and dives (series of high and low yo-yo's) and not which plane has the better sustained climb.

US plane like p47 has a terrible sustained climb but can zoom climb much better than the paper planes.

 

In some regards in Warthunder this kind of pure energy zooms are simulated probably better LOL. Actually it is there where I enjoyed my best energy fights, loosing light 109's with zooms in p47.

 

In il 2 46 the 109 g2 had the same zoom climb as the p 47 which was ridiculous (zoom climb is very different from sustained climb).

 

So to keep short the most basic zoom climb energy tactic is not working against a yak. The 109 can have a better sustained climb. However the 190 cannot count on its zoom capabilities.

Fw is pure interceptor and boom and zoomer, 109-f2/4 and good pilot will give me a lot of trouble in coenergy and turns, 109g2 on the other hand is more for boom and zoom and way less for turn fight.

That's why until few months ago i only flew f4 and was my fav plane.

Oh i lost so many ailerons following fw in dive, if you play tanks you can find them scattered around ;p

Edited June 29, 2017 by redribbon

[JG27*Kornezov]

You have no idea how Blackheart was swearing at our team (they were flying Spits) ans we were flying FW190  several years ago. A team of 4 Fw 190 is the deadliest thing this simulated reality has ever known. I am not talking about boom zoom I am talking about deep down and dirty fight. Waiting forward to implement that in BOS.

Edited June 29, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The most important Graph for assessing a Glider's Performance is looking at the Polar. This gives you a number of Informations that determing how it will do in Cross Country flying. 

 

Take these two for example, one is a Duo Discus, a bewitchingly beautful plane and probably one of the best Deals out there. The Y-Axis is Rate of Sink and the X-Axis is Speed. From the Polar you can read Glide Angle at all Speeds, best Glide Angle for going straight, Rate of Sink at all Speeds and minimum Rate of Sink which are important when Thermalling. 

 

The Duo Discus is a bewitchingly beautiful GRP/Carbon Fibre High Performance Glider for Club use. It has a Glide Angle of 45:1, so 45km Distance out of 1000m of Altitude at 95 to 125kph at 700kg. It's minimum Rate of Sink is at 0.7m/s at 90kph.

At 500kg It glides less well, but Minimum Sink happens at lower speeds and thus it can thermal better. 

 

This is one from a Schleicher K-8, a training type from the 60s from Steel, Wood, Glue and Fabric. As you can see, it's Performance isn't as good. It is a much slower Aircraft and Glides a lot Worse, but Minimum Sink happens at 60kph. So it can pull very tight Circles and leave the Duo in the Dust when it comes to thermalling, since it can get much closer to the Center of the Thermals were the Air is rising fastest. However, once out of the Thermal you either have to fly very slowly, around 75kph or you Fall like a Stone.

The E-Numbers are Glide Angles, and the K-8 at 75kph will glide at 25:1, but at 125 it will fall with and Angle of 15:1. The Duo Discus still has 45:1 at that Point and would have to Exceed it's Vne or fly completely Stalled to be as bad as the K-8. 

 

However, on a Day with Weak Weather the K-8 is your go to if all you want is to get away from the Ground for a Long Time, on these Days the Duo will be confined to flying Patterns, too heavy and fast to gain altitude. 

 

 

 

 

 

Duo:

 

 

K-8

 

 

 

 

 

How does this relate to us though? Well, I would like to create Polars for Il-2 as well, but that's a Multi Day Task. Of course with our Motor-Planes the Graphs would have a Positive Side on the X-Axis as well, but would be largely the same. 

These  Polars would be a great Tool to show flaws in the FMs and properly assist the Devs in improving  the Game. 

 

My Idea would be to create Rough Polars in 30-50kph Intervalls between 500 and 1500m and just record the times it takes to Climb/Dive between these altitudes. Then we would have an amazing FM Reference. 

This would be just one Point on these Polars.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Wings of Liberty is Cancer,

 

Ha ha Claus, all though I understand your point and salute your post, witch is superb. WOL is the server you go when you just want to fly something else and not wanting to affect your stats elsewhere

S! for all other words in your post 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Wings of Liberty Chat Re-Enacted, Colorized.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[StG2_Manfred]

Here are my Creds, ....

 

Didn't want to discredit you. And I appreciate your glide and polar tests and hope you do it with the new FMs!

 

Generally I wanted to say that something goes wrong here when people recommend things which they cannot prove themselves, or (fighting) tests are performed in singleplayer and then conclusions are drawn for multiplayer. I suggest that everybody check their impressions in a vivid environment (against a human pilot) and ideally record their findings! Then this all can get more substance and become less hostile.

 

This all of course makes most only sense with the new FMs....

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Because you are accusing GridiroN not to fly the Yak in MP and many others here often complain that the Lufties should test the other side, I prepared a little grid from WoL stats of the last 2 month with some names (a random selection) which participated here in this thread.

 

It turns out that you (and Silas) are the only ones which have not a single record in MP on this server. So what does this say about you? You do not make only assumptions or you are actually knowing what you are speaking about? Who can take you seriously?

 

And the statement 'test the other side' can be applied for others as well. Go and make some kills in the (far superior) 109s and 190s and let your statistics speak for you!

Unfortunately you did not included​ stats from April, because this is first time when I do not changed​ side after one month flying just one. In April​ i did spend whole month in 109 - 35 hours. Edited June 29, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[StG2_Manfred]

Unfortunately you did not included​ stats from April, because this is first time when I do not changed​ side after one month flying just one. In April​ i did spend whole month in 109 - 35 hours.

 

Ok, sorry, I apologize!

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

That feeling when people with piss-poor performance and a 0.6 K/D-ratio tell you what your plane can or cannot do.. :D

 

Don't listen to couch-experts, listen to the stats, the people who actually are good pilots and the numbers on the testsheets. See (some of) you on the servers!

 

Yes you have right, i figured it out to from his sentences but then i saw his stats.

[JG27*Kornezov]

Another typical example when possibly an interesting discussion goes nowhere.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Another typical example when possibly an interesting discussion goes nowhere.

 

No, actually it never had any potential to go anywhere...any thread whose first sentence about the Yak is "It can outrun,it can out climb,out turn the 109 when this was not the case in the real world I understand balance but they have tipped the scale to the Russian side" is doomed from the start, because the premise about what the Yak can do in the game is false. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Iceworm

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

One more personal attack between members, bickering or another attack to the community and this topic is done. Keep it on topic and be civil.

 

Haash

[StG2_Manfred]

No, actually it never had any potential to go anywhere...any thread whose first sentence about the Yak is "It can outrun,it can out climb,out turn the 109 when this was not the case in the real world I understand balance but they have tipped the scale to the Russian side" is doomed from the start, because the premise about what the Yak can do in the game is false.

Iceworm, you are not long active within here, yet quite critical with your claims. Can you prove your statements with historical facts or in-game records?

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Generally I wanted to say that something goes wrong here when people recommend things which they cannot prove themselves,

If they do not spend the time on forum screaming they can, and even if they do not fly different sides lately , do not mean they haven't experienced other side. Lets say you complain about Yak FM and you never flown it, that is not the same if someone answer you and did fly 109 a great deal a year ago.

Your example is non legit since you attack people not ever complaining about a ac FM they have never flown. So you are wrong wrong wrong, and the point you made is invalid 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Iceworm, you are not long active within here, yet quite critical with your claims. Can you prove your statements with historical facts or in-game records?

 

In this game, a Bf-109 can out-run, out-climb, and out-dive a Yak, as it did historically.  The Bf-109 always has more power than the Yak, and if the pilot manages his energy correctly, he can always achieve his corner speed and bleed the Yak below his, so good pilots can and do win angles/maneuver fights with Yaks, also.  I don't claim flight models are perfect, but this seems quite in line with everything I've ever read about Bf-109's versus Yaks.  What is it that you want me to prove?  Are you asking me to find some stats or something that demonstrates that the in-game Bf-109 does not possess these superiorities?  I don't mean to sound like a broken record or an echo chamber, but even if you are going to be a Luftwaffe-only pilot, it would greatly benefit you to spend some time on the Russian side.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Iceworm

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

In this game, a Bf-109 can out-run, out-climb, and out-dive a Yak, as it did historically.  The Bf-109 always has more power than the Yak, and if the pilot manages his energy correctly, he can always achieve his corner speed and bleed the Yak below his, so good pilots can and do win angles/maneuver fights with Yaks, also.  I don't claim flight models are perfect, but this seems quite in line with everything I've ever read about Bf-109's versus Yaks.  What is it that you want me to prove?  Are you asking me to find some stats or something that demonstrates that the in-game Bf-109 does not possess these superiorities?  I don't mean to sound like a broken record or an echo chamber, but even if you are going to be a Luftwaffe-only pilot, it would greatly benefit you to spend some time on the Russian side.

 

The Main Thema as i understand is how to dogfight a Yak and not outrun them, so far i read different thing the 109 should very well able to dogfight a yak as the ingame stats also show..,

We try now this often yak 1vs1 109 on the Dogfight server as long the Yak dont pull the Flap handel the dofight goes down very plausible, with Flaps deployed pulls incredible angel nearly no Drag and AOA punishment, yak does not have any sort of combat flaps ordnery landing device compare to japanese Fighters.

And try 109 with Flaps deployed it does nothing only slows you down, does not include energy fighting this can the yak also all Day long with altitude advantage...

Edited June 30, 2017 by 9./JG27MAD-MM

[Irgendjemand]

The Main Thema as i understand is how to dogfight a Yak and not outrun them, so far i read different thing the 109 should very well able to dogfight a yak as the ingame stats also show..,

We try now this often yak 1vs1 109 on the Dogfight server as long the Yak dont pull the Flap handel the dofight goes down very plausible, with Flaps deployed pulls incredible angel nearly no Drag and AOA punishment, yak does not have any sort of combat flaps ordnery landing device compare to japanese Fighters.

And try 109 with Flaps deployed it does nothing only slows you down, does not include energy fighting this can the yak also all Day long with altitude advantage...

 

+1 the Flaps on YAK1 and also other russian planes just behave like a cheat. Heck they even get deployed to stabilize in a stall or steep climb.

Just not plausible. I dont understand how semeone can say this is physically accurate. It cant be. If it was why doesnt it behave the same for all planes with flaps?

 

I wonder: Back a while ago there was a patch after wich russian planes with flaps behaved a lot less unrealistic. Have these changes been undone?

At least it feels like it.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[216th_Jordan]

+1 the Flaps on YAK1 and also other russian planes just behave like a cheat. Heck they even get deployed to stabilize in a stall or steep climb.

Just not plausible.

This is just not true. Flying axis and allies on a regular basis on dogfight servers I can very well see the not split allies flaps surely have an advantage over split and manually operated german ones but pushing out the flaps does not enable you to pull crazy manouvers or to float longer in the air (see the climb tests I did half a year ago). On the contrary the flaps limit the planes agility even more (its not so great on a yak in the first place) while slowing down the plane drastically. The only thing the flaps do is enable a tighter turn radius, and yes if you are fighting for the tightest turn radius you may likely lose against a yak with flaps out, but it has to be said that this is a very bad style of fighting. If you were properly scissoring or yoyo-ing the yak it would have no chance, even more so with flaps out.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

I really want to believe you but all my flying in the yak says otherwise. Yes just slamming them out at any moment isn't the smartest thing to do, but they do bring an unrealistic advantage in certain situations.

 

The moment that really convinced me it was BS was when I was flying against MAD in a Duel on the 72AG server. We both started out with a high Chandelle, taking as much altitude with us as we could in the first turn. Near the top I turned around to face back towards him and he continued climbing to try and set himself above me. Now the 109 does this maneuver just ever so slightly better so at this point he has a slight energy advantage, climbing sideways to me and slightly above, but I have the nose in his direction with angles advantage. I decide to try and hike the nose up and to the right for a shot. Now I've stretched the climb as far as is even possible, I'm very very slow (any slower and I'd fall from the sky), and have the stick back right on the edge of the stall in a slightly climbing right turn. I put the flaps out and instantly the plane felt like it had just sped up by 50-100 km/h. The aircraft turned in, the nose came up, and I shot MAD down.

 

In a situation like that at the edge of a stall, very very very slow, putting the flaps out (split flaps, which would have extended to a full 50 degrees at that speed) should somehow energize the airflow over the wing and enable such maneuvers. Assuming the critical AoA stays the same, and isn't negatively affected by adding 50 degrees of flaps, you should get a little more lift, and a lot more drag. I should have been tumbling out of the sky, not shooting anyone down.

 

Now I don't claim to be an expert, if anyone wants to explain to me the flaw in my logic there please go ahead. But as it is now, things like that just seems totally absurd to me.

 

Edit: Pretty much this

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by 9./JG27DefaultFace

[216th_Jordan]

-snip-

 

Edit: Pretty much this

 

 

I think I undertand what kind of situations you mean.

The thing is once you put out the flaps your AoA decreases abruptly as the lift vector increases, I can not tell you if the transition is 100% right of course and I'm sure that there would be quite some turbulence induced by the flaps (this is hard to model right I guess) that we don't really see ingame. But even at a high AoA lowering the flaps should give you a momentary advantage in stability if you are not stalled already (this of course depends on a lot of different parameters). I see what you mean and I found myself in positions where I got shot down by Yaks and wondered how the heck they just did that.

Rewatching the tracks after the fights often reveals though that my first impression was not right. What matters most is if one is somewhere in firing range of the opponent, that can be by overshooting or other means. What makes momentary shots possible at low speeds, and this needs to be accounted for, is propwash. The Yak profits more from this as a bigger wing area is affected by it so in low speed situations this can be used to control the plane and point to a shot that would not have been able with power off flight.

 

Anyway I would of course like to see the situation you described, did you by chance record the track and could make a video of ít?

 

 

PS: I think we should wait anyway on what the new flight physics bring in this general regard as stability/agility paramters should change quite drastically and then see how it plays out.

Edited June 30, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I really want to believe you but all my flying in the yak says otherwise. Yes just slamming them out at any moment isn't the smartest thing to do, but they do bring an unrealistic advantage in certain situations.

 

The moment that really convinced me it was BS was when I was flying against MAD in a Duel on the 72AG server. We both started out with a high Chandelle, taking as much altitude with us as we could in the first turn. Near the top I turned around to face back towards him and he continued climbing to try and set himself above me. Now the 109 does this maneuver just ever so slightly better so at this point he has a slight energy advantage, climbing sideways to me and slightly above, but I have the nose in his direction with angles advantage. I decide to try and hike the nose up and to the right for a shot. Now I've stretched the climb as far as is even possible, I'm very very slow (any slower and I'd fall from the sky), and have the stick back right on the edge of the stall in a slightly climbing right turn. I put the flaps out and instantly the plane felt like it had just sped up by 50-100 km/h. The aircraft turned in, the nose came up, and I shot MAD down.

 

In a situation like that at the edge of a stall, very very very slow, putting the flaps out (split flaps, which would have extended to a full 50 degrees at that speed) should somehow energize the airflow over the wing and enable such maneuvers. Assuming the critical AoA stays the same, and isn't negatively affected by adding 50 degrees of flaps, you should get a little more lift, and a lot more drag. I should have been tumbling out of the sky, not shooting anyone down.

 

Now I don't claim to be an expert, if anyone wants to explain to me the flaw in my logic there please go ahead. But as it is now, things like that just seems totally absurd to me.

 

Edit: Pretty much this

I know the situation you're talkign about and to me it also seems wrong (not only true for the Yak but also other aircraft like the IL-2 with quick flap deployment). The notation I highlighted is wrong though since deploying flaps will affectively lower your wing's critical AoA (as demonstrated by your graphic - Crit AoA clean is 15°, Crit AoA with flaps is ~9°).

 

I think I undertand what kind of situations you mean.

The thing is once you put out the flaps your AoA decreases abruptly as the lift vector increases, I can not tell you if the transition is 100% right of course and I'm sure that there would be quite some turbulence induced by the flaps (this is hard to model right I guess) that we don't really see ingame. But even at a high AoA lowering the flaps should give you a momentary advantage in stability if you are not stalled already (this of course depends on a lot of different parameters).

Reminds me of a question I was asked by my flight instructor during my training. He asked me when I was in a climb and the aircraft reached stall speed what I could do to prevent stalling. When I replied one oculd lower flaps he sayed as soon as I'd do so the aircraft would stall out and start spinning already. It is likely that this may be an anspect where BoS (and other flight sims) are currently lacking.

 

Mind you I'm not an aeronautical engineer and this is purely anecdotal.

Edited June 30, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Unfortunately I didn't record it. I don't have much time to fly at the moment but if I get around to it I'll try and duplicate the maneuver.

 

Why should flaps cause a decrease in AoA? Are you referring to a pitch down moment due to deploying flaps or something else?

 

As you say most of this discussion is pointless as it will all change in late July anyway.

 

 

Reminds me of a question I was asked by my flight instructor during my training. He asked me when I was in a climb and the aircraft reached stall speed what I could do to prevent stalling. When I replied you one oculd lower flaps he sayed as soon as I'd do so the aircraft would stall out and start spinning already. It is likely that this may be an anspect where BoS (and other flight sims) are currently lacking.

 

I've also heard a story of a flight student who lost his engine shortly after takeoff. As he was gliding back to the runway his Instructor told him over the radio to drop flaps. Had he not done this he probably would have made the runway instead of doing what he did, which was stalling, hitting the ground very hard, and almost getting killed.

 

Edit: Also yes I understand that the critical AoA would not stay the same but I was trying to simplify things a bit and give the FM the benefit of the doubt. I'm also not an aeronautical engineer (yet) and haven't had any advanced aerodynamics courses yet but from what I understand at the moment, 50° of flaps would certainly be a large hurdle for airflow to overcome without separating. Especially at such a low energy state as described above.

Edited June 30, 2017 by 9./JG27DefaultFace

[303_Kwiatek]

The most problem with flaps in BOS is not really possibility to damage.  Extended flaps should be very fragile for G-load. If you look at technical instructions for many planes extended flaps limit G load mostly for 2-3 G not more.

 

Put more flaps damage in BOS and surly people would not used them so happily.  Now they risk nothing  and flaps in Russian planes work as automatic flaps which extended dependly of speed ( less speed more extended flaps)  - very nice adition

Edited June 30, 2017 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

Put more flaps damage in BOS and surly people would not used them so happily. Now they risk nothing and flaps in Russian planes work as automatic flaps which extended dependly of speed ( less speed more extended flaps) - very nice adition

That's only the pneumatic flaps on the Yak and IL-2, and that is pretty much how pneumatic flaps work.

 

However, having a risk of damage to the system when flaps are open st high G loads might not be such a bad solution. Seems logical to me, that heavy loads on the flaps could result in damage.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Why should flaps cause a decrease in AoA? Are you referring to a pitch down moment due to deploying flaps or something else?

Critical AoA is a fixed parameter describing at which AoA the wing is beginning to stall. AoA is a variable parameter that changes with pitch attitude or wing geometry (flaps, slats).

 

Lowering the flaps means your wing's critical AoA is lowered as well because you effectively increase your AoA without increasing pitch angle. With other words, once you have flaps deployed in level flight you can pull less before stalling the aircraft.

Edited June 30, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Yes I understand what AoA is. What you are referring to is increasing effective AoA by changing the Chord line. Jordan mentioned a decrease in AoA (not critical AoA) with deployed flaps.

 

Now what I'm not sure about (which someone who has more knowledge of Cl v Alpha curves than I do can gladly correct) is if the angle in the Cl v Alpha diagram with flaps down is still in reference to the non flaps chord line and the relative airflow or if it is then adjusted for the changed chord line when dropping flaps. To me doing the latter would seem to be comparing apples to oranges.

 

Simply put I think flaps, like many airplane things can be explained in several ways, none of which are completely right or wrong. Its the difference between saying: By deploying flaps you make more lift at the same angle of attack, and saying: by deploying flaps you increase lift by increasing angle of attack (via a changed Chord line and not pitching up/pulling back on the stick).

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

What I noticed and don't like is when i deploy Yak flaps in low speed for exaplme before touch down - my plane instantly balloon up. This can be used on maximum edge of slope to rich firing solution because when it happen plane is stable and respond to controls.

Edited June 30, 2017 by 307_Tomcat