How on earth do you fight a Yak-1

[Finkeren]

This is not true. It's not even logical really. If a 109 is coming down on a Yak with high energy, the Yak pilot is almost always going to pull the stick into his crotch or bellyflop. The 109 will never have a low enough energy state to follow that maneuver.

Whenever someone mentions that a Yak pilot can "just pull the stick to his crotch" it tells me that this person really doesn't fly the Yak much if at all.

 

The Yak has extremely effective and light elevators - perhaps too light, and it seems that this is one of the things that will be tweaked in the comin FM update.

 

Pulling the stick fully back in Yak at speeds below ~600km/h will invaribly result in an accelerated stall. Doing combat turns in a Yak is a balancing act, same as any other plane.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

And as Finkeren said Yak easily can be forced to enter stall in case pulling to hard so it's not that easy to escape fast enough or make error and overreact. New FM with decreased roll and elevator effectiveness​ will for sure change some but how much we see.

[216th_Jordan]

Additionally turn radius on Yak without flaps is rather large, so if you want a tighter turn you have to release flaps which will make you a juicy target as you get very slow quickly with flaps extended. Right now if you meet a 109 in a yak then you have a big problem as the 109 is very agile and can quickly turn to new deflection-shot angles. If you know how to scissor you can also quickly force a yak to overshoot (while keeping energy by high yoyos) as it does not turn/roll very clean and needs a certain amount of time to settle in a new flight state. You have to know how to use your 109 properly to do this though, if you are a beginner the Yak-1 is easier as it is more stable on the longitudinal axis. If you try to match the turnradius of a yak with flaps extended you will also likely lose because a 109 is incapable of turning so tight peoperly with its flaps extended (they cause by design/interruption by radiators more drag than lift compared to the simple yak flaps). Thats why it depends a lot on proper flight techniques to win in a 109.

 

I think Berloga offers a good measurement for this, its best to try both planes and find their weaknesses and strengths. That being said if you master it you can become almost untouchable in a 109 (especially the F4) - I remember last week when I had a score of 27 kills to 0 deaths, something I had not achieved on the other side yet. (maybe I'm too bad for russian planes lol)

[vincini]

Whenever someone mentions that a Yak pilot can "just pull the stick to his crotch" it tells me that this person really doesn't fly the Yak much if at all.

 

The Yak has extremely effective and light elevators - perhaps too light, and it seems that this is one of the things that will be tweaked in the comin FM update.

 

Pulling the stick fully back in Yak at speeds below ~600km/h will invaribly result in an accelerated stall. Doing combat turns in a Yak is a balancing act, same as any other plane.

Exactly this. The Yak is basically one giant stall in aggressive combat turns. However, the plane handles very well while stalling, which is why in an axis pilots eyes, may look like they never stalled at all. Being I rarely, if ever fly axis, my only advice against a Yak is to always be patient and never get dragged down. I typically have a hard time with 109 pilots that know how to bounce properly. Dont pull high Gs when diving on an enemy. Many Yak pilots wont know how to handle a high altitude, high energy axis fighter. Most friendlies I see go in to a steep climb and turn to "follow and keep visual" but they dont realize they are stalled sitting ducks to the stable dive speed of a 109, or if they are really unlucky, a 190.

[GridiroN]

What you write is false because you assumed​ tremendous difference of energy between 109 and Yak but it's not always true and yours description is to simple . If you can't imagine that go see that on "artificial" dogfight Berloga server.

 

 

Whenever someone mentions that a Yak pilot can "just pull the stick to his crotch" it tells me that this person really doesn't fly the Yak much if at all.

 

The Yak has extremely effective and light elevators - perhaps too light, and it seems that this is one of the things that will be tweaked in the comin FM update.

 

Pulling the stick fully back in Yak at speeds below ~600km/h will invaribly result in an accelerated stall. Doing combat turns in a Yak is a balancing act, same as any other plane.

 

 

And as Finkeren said Yak easily can be forced to enter stall in case pulling to hard so it's not that easy to escape fast enough or make error and overreact. New FM with decreased roll and elevator effectiveness​ will for sure change some but how much we see.

 

Pretty much all of this is pedantry to avoid the actual problem with what you're suggesting, which is neither realistic in terms of the scenarios either plane is usually in, nor logically sensible. 

Whether or not pulling the stick fully back creates a stall isn't relevant (and would depend on people's individual settings anyways). What's relevant is the interplay of energy states. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Pretty much all of this is pedantry to avoid the actual problem with what you're suggesting, which is neither realistic in terms of the scenarios either plane is usually in, nor logically sensible. 

Whether or not pulling the stick fully back creates a stall isn't relevant (and would depend on people's individual settings anyways). What's relevant is the interplay of energy states. 

Are you trying to say something  because you fail miserably, "interplay of energy" wow what a revelation!! what will be next doc ? :-)

[Finkeren]

Pretty much all of this is pedantry to avoid the actual problem with what you're suggesting, which is neither realistic in terms of the scenarios either plane is usually in, nor logically sensible.

Whether or not pulling the stick fully back creates a stall isn't relevant (and would depend on people's individual settings anyways). What's relevant is the interplay of energy states.

This "pedantry" is pretty important for 2 reasons:

 

1. It betrays the fact, that you (and many others) hardly ever fly the Yak in MP, but are simply making assumptions about what a Yak pilot actually does. This makes it very hard for me to take any complaint seriously, because it is literally impossible to adequately evaluate one aircraft's performance in combat against another without flying both.

 

2. The complaint about the Yak-1 is not merely, that it is able to do things, it shouldn't be doing (some of which is hard to test, but is always worth discussing) It is also the assumption, that getting the Yak to perform this way is ridiculously easy and really just comes down to dropping flaps and yanking the stick back as hard as you can. All 100% false. The same goes for the notion, that the Yak somehow remains fully controllable during a stall, not true either, and people who actually fly the Yak would know this.

[Gambit21]

Yak somehow remains fully controllable during a stall, not true either, and people who actually fly the Yak would know this.

 

Anyone who flies any aircraft should know that actually.

[Finkeren]

Anyone who flies any aircraft should know that actually.

Obviously. But a lot of people who complain about the Yak without actually flying it seem to think, that it's magical.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Finkeren

[Gambit21]

Obviously. But a lot of people who complain about the Yak without actually flying it seem to think, that it's magical.

 

Oh I get it...my point was that any aircraft that was still fully controllable during a departure...well that's obviously a (magical) contradiction.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Obviously. But a lot of people who complain about the Yak without actually flying it seem to think, that it's magical.

 

Grass is greener syndrome from more than a few with regards to the Yak. The Yak is a good fighter but it isn't doing half of what its accused of.

[Wulf]

Grass is greener syndrome from more than a few with regards to the Yak. The Yak is a good fighter but it isn't doing half of what its accused of.

 

 

So ... hang on a sec.  That whole child molestation thing.  You're sayin it's bogus??

[StG2_Manfred]

The Yak has some weaknesses and the 109 some strenghts, admitted. But I'm flying or at least testing the Yak. And its stability, its only rudimentary engine management, the ability to pull high Gs (the blackout appears quite long only at the edges of your view and doesn't hinder you to continue flying) and its flaps behaviour are somehow magical. There is no question about that for me. But this is old Yak (and 109) FM by now

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Old FM yes , pulling to many g's in Yak will blackout you long enough to be killed or kill yourself I speak from experience. About magic flaps I don't remember using it because I don't want loose my speed and if I did try it only on Berloga and it did not help to much escaping from turning at me at corner speed 109. For sure Yak is stable compared to 109 but happly 109 will also be stable with new FM. Just wait and see how it will be very interested times

Edited June 23, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Guest deleted@83466]

The Yak has some weaknesses and the 109 some strenghts, admitted. But I'm flying or at least testing the Yak. And its stability, its only rudimentary engine management, the ability to pull high Gs (the blackout appears quite long only at the edges of your view and doesn't hinder you to continue flying) and its flaps behaviour are somehow magical. There is no question about that for me. But this is old Yak (and 109) FM by now

 

I seriously doubt that the developers coded in a different pilot greyout/blackout thresholds for the Yak versus any other aircraft! 

 

And I've heard this term "magical flaps" for the Yak, but I must admit I don't know what people are talking about.  What is claimed shouldn't be happening?

 

And when you say "its only rudimentary engine management", I'm a bit confused too.  Yes, you've got two radiators, a mixture lever, an RPM lever, and that's pretty easy, but how is it out of line, or rudimentary, compared with the overall level of complexity that the developers have chosen for this game,  or other planes that they have modeled?

Edited June 23, 2017 by Iceworm

[Willy__]

 

 

And I've heard this term "magical flaps" for the Yak, but I must admit I don't know what people are talking about.  What is claimed shouldn't be happening?

 

Long time ago, we had this issue with the Yak flaps. People would create tons of threads complaining about it, and you could easily see almost every vvs pilot using that exploit. I dont know exactly what happened, but back then you could pop flaps with minimal consequences to a extend that they changed it (if you go look at the change logs, theres one that mention about the rework on yak flaps).

 

But since the change I dont think the flaps are an issue anymore, sure there are people that still use it, but the gains are not exactly the same from before. 

[Sunde]

I seriously doubt that the developers coded in a different pilot greyout/blackout thresholds for the Yak versus any other aircraft! 

 

And I've heard this term "magical flaps" for the Yak, but I must admit I don't know what people are talking about.  What is claimed shouldn't be happening?

 

And when you say "its only rudimentary engine management", I'm a bit confused too.  Yes, you've got two radiators, a mixture lever, an RPM lever, and that's pretty easy, but how is it out of line, or rudimentary, compared with the overall level of complexity that the developers have chosen for this game,  or other planes that they have modeled?

Idk, seems abit out of wack for me flying the 1B. All i need to do is slam throttle wide open, 100% everything else.

Eventually change supercharger and if i go above 4k slightly reduce mixture. I'd almost say keeping the 109 out of combat mode takes more attention... (almost)

  Obviously if i enter combat 30% rads and then im set till it starts getting too hot. (takes ages)! 

As you said, its not hard - however you will find people saying that it takes more "skill" to mange the yak, thats probably true. I'd say it takes 3% more skill to manage the engine, however i also think it takes more skill to fly the 109 to the absolute max of its capabilites. Anyone thinking that the 109 is just superior in any way, is welcome to duel me, i'd love to see that in action. 

[71st_AH_Vertigo]

... I try to ram 'em.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Idk, seems abit out of wack for me flying the 1B. All i need to do is slam throttle wide open, 100% everything else.

Eventually change supercharger and if i go above 4k slightly reduce mixture. I'd almost say keeping the 109 out of combat mode takes more attention... (almost)

  Obviously if i enter combat 30% rads and then im set till it starts getting too hot. (takes ages)! 

As you said, its not hard - however you will find people saying that it takes more "skill" to mange the yak, thats probably true. I'd say it takes 3% more skill to manage the engine, however i also think it takes more skill to fly the 109 to the absolute max of its capabilites. Anyone thinking that the 109 is just superior in any way, is welcome to duel me, i'd love to see that in action. 

 

Do you expect the Yak engine to quickly burn out at 100% throttle and 100% RPM, same as when you push the Bf-109 to 1.42 Ata?  I don't know Russian, and I don't have any flight handbooks for the Yak, but I'm guessing that the developers made it that way, because that's closest to the way it was.  If the throttle unit and carburetor was designed in such a way that you could push the engine into a time-limited reserve power realm ("combat power" and "emergency power"), I can't figure out any reason why the developers wouldn't have made it that way, same as they did for the Daimler-Benz engines.   If you have some information that shows something different, then by all means, write a bug report and give it to the developers, but when we say "it seems a bit out of whack", I don't quite know what to make out of that.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Iceworm

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

It's because the M105 has the top settings by the throttle/rpm levers as nominal power, I guess the engine by itself could handle higher manifold pressure/RPM but they only allowed the nominal settings for the pilot to use (maybe higher settings weren't reliable enough to even consider a limited use). For comparison the Bf 109 would be in the same situation if you could only reach up to 1.15 ata with 100% throttle.

Edited June 23, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[ShamrockOneFive]

Idk, seems abit out of wack for me flying the 1B. All i need to do is slam throttle wide open, 100% everything else.

Eventually change supercharger and if i go above 4k slightly reduce mixture. I'd almost say keeping the 109 out of combat mode takes more attention... (almost)

  Obviously if i enter combat 30% rads and then im set till it starts getting too hot. (takes ages)! 

As you said, its not hard - however you will find people saying that it takes more "skill" to mange the yak, thats probably true. I'd say it takes 3% more skill to manage the engine, however i also think it takes more skill to fly the 109 to the absolute max of its capabilites. Anyone thinking that the 109 is just superior in any way, is welcome to duel me, i'd love to see that in action. 

 

That's normal for the M-105PF. It doesn't have an Emergency power setting like the Bf109s do. It'd be like if the Bf109 was permanently stuck at 70%. These are two different engines with different operating philosophies and expectations for frontline use.

Edited June 24, 2017 by ShamrockOneFive

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

However, as far as I know the Russian Manual did limit Temperatures exceeding 100°C up to 115°C for no longer than 5 Minutes. As of now the Yak-1s can be run at 115° indefinetly. 

 

So if you wanted to introduce a meaningful, historically accurate Limitation the "Emergency Mode" Timer woud start once 100°C are exceeded and would vary with Temperature. Same for all M-105s. 

 

Well, the M-105PF was a 35 litre Engine, same as the DBs, more Stroke, Less Bore and Running 2700 RPM and 1.38 ata Cont. My Guess is that the lower Power is a Result of a less aggressive Cam and Cylinder Head since the DB601E does the same Power at 1.3ata and 2500rpm. 

So the Comparison isn't all that easy. 

[Barnacles]

However, as far as I know the Russian Manual did limit Temperatures exceeding 100°C up to 115°C for no longer than 5 Minutes. As of now the Yak-1s can be run at 115° indefinetly. 

 

So if you wanted to introduce a meaningful, historically accurate Limitation the "Emergency Mode" Timer woud start once 100°C are exceeded and would vary with Temperature. Same for all M-105s. 

 

That implementation of emergency mode would be consistent, at least.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, someone find the Original Manual and make it a Suggestion in the Suggestions Thread as well as sending it to Han directly. It's no use just speculating here. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

In manual  for VK 105PF there are limits : 110 C water max 10 min, oil 115 C max 5 min. Plus/minus margin  between 4 (water) 5 (oil)  to  8 C

Edited June 26, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[GridiroN]

Are you trying to say something because you fail miserably, "interplay of energy" wow what a revelation!! what will be next doc ? :-)

 

If you're going to insult someone, at least learn the language and do it legibly...otherwise it's best to keep your mouth shut.

 

This "pedantry" is pretty important for 2 reasons:

 

1. It betrays the fact, that you (and many others) hardly ever fly the Yak in MP, but are simply making assumptions about what a Yak pilot actually does.

 

You don't have any idea how often anyone flies anything. Even if your point was true, which it's not (I fly both sides evenly now), I have hundreds of hours in a 109 fighting against YaKs and know full well the performance envelope of the YaK.

 

Your opinion is just that; an opinion.

 

This makes it very hard for me to take any complaint seriously, because it is literally impossible to adequately evaluate one aircraft's performance in combat against another without flying both.

 

I've known your alias for years. You generally defend VVS on most issues and attack Lufts. I don't think this is about honest evaluations or taking complaints seriously. I think you're just defending your perceived team which is fine, but let's not bullshit.

 

2. The complaint about the Yak-1 is not merely, that it is able to do things, it shouldn't be doing (some of which is hard to test, but is always worth discussing) It is also the assumption, that getting the Yak to perform this way is ridiculously easy and really just comes down to dropping flaps and yanking the stick back as hard as you can. All 100% false. The same goes for the notion, that the Yak somehow remains fully controllable during a stall, not true either, and people who actually fly the Yak would know this.

 

It was actually Sketch who first quoted this about the YaK and he's a far superior pilot to myself. If you think it's dumb, you can take it up with him, but I generally agree that your original description of a combat situation is not realistic... You're speaking from bias.

Edited June 28, 2017 by GridiroN

[Guest deleted@83466]

It was actually Sketch who first quoted this issue with the YaK and he's a far superior pilot to myself. If you think it's dumb, you can take it up with him, but I generally agree that your original description of a combat situation is not realistic... You're speaking from bias.

 

What is "this" issue with the Yak first reported by "Sketch".  What specifically, Gridiron, do you think is mis-modeled with the Yak, and why? 

 

(turn radius, turn rate, the stall characteristics, what's "wrong" and how are you so confident that anything about the flight model is incorrect? If you are claiming that you can fly the aircraft stick-to-the-dick in a low energy state without a dangerous stall, you are completely wrong.)

Edited June 28, 2017 by Iceworm

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

[edited]

Edited June 29, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[GridiroN]

What is "this" issue with the Yak first reported by "Sketch".  What specifically, Gridiron, do you think is mis-modeled with the Yak, and why? 

 

(turn radius, turn rate, the stall characteristics, what's "wrong" and how are you so confident that anything about the flight model is incorrect? If you are claiming that you can fly the aircraft stick-to-the-dick in a low energy state without a dangerous stall, you are completely wrong.)

 

"I" never "claimed" "anything" was "wrong". "I" said "Finkerin's" "opinion" was "unrealistic", and that the "statement" he is "attempting" to "pull" "skill rank" over was "suggested" by a far superior "pilot".  

 

"..IceWorm"

 

 

 

What can I say you are just frustrated pilot who supposedly know better but can't do ...... 

 

 

Again this makes no sense. Perhaps it would be best for you to simply act like an adult and stop trying to attack people period champ. It's neither mature, constructive, or quite frankly, a good use of anyone's time.

Edited June 28, 2017 by GridiroN

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Your opinion is just that; an opinion.

 

 

 

 

Of course his opinion is his own.  Would you rather he repeat yours instead?

 

 

 

I've known your alias for years. You generally defend defend VVS on most issues and attack Lufts. I don't think this is about honest evaluations or taking complaints seriously. I think you're just defending your perceived team which is fine, but let's not bullshit.

 

.. You're speaking from bias.

 

 

Coming from a guy with a Messerschmitt avatar?  Give me a break.  It's you.

Edited June 28, 2017 by 7-GvShAP/Silas

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Gridiron is like sinned's cousin or something.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I still am not quite clear on what exactly Gridiron is arguing should or shouldn't be happening with either the Yak or the Bf-109...

[GridiroN]

Of course his opinion is his own.  Would you rather he repeat yours instead?

Yes. [edited]

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Coming from a guy with a Messerschmitt avatar?  Give me a break.  It's you.

Finkerin's avatar is a female soviet and many other users have nationalistic avatars. That was a good try though.[edited]. Liking German plane's historically has nothing to do with the bias of opinions.

 

[edited]

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Poor taste and you actually attacked the whole community??...not nice.

Edited June 29, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[Guest deleted@83466]

[edited]

 

Irony

Edited June 29, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[FTC_Etherlight]

That feeling when people with piss-poor performance and a 0.6 K/D-ratio tell you what your plane can or cannot do.. :D

 

Don't listen to couch-experts, listen to the stats, the people who actually are good pilots and the numbers on the testsheets. See (some of) you on the servers!

[Ribbon]

Yak- a bit more stable due to it's wing shape and size slightly better in side turns. Can match 109's speed when radiators closed even in climb (almost).

 

Bf109-better engine performance (above 5k, par under 5000m) and speed expecially in climb and better in vertical turns due to it's wing shape and area which induce less drag therefor less energy bleed.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

When flown at 1.3ata and 2500-2600rpm the 109F-2 to G-4 all get somewhere between 520 and 530 on the Deck and Realistic Climb Rate of 18+m/s sustainably. With Emergency Mode they all go over 540. 

 

In the same Weather the Yak 69 can barely sustain 510, normally will be found at 480 to 505 on the Deck, the 127 is about 15kph faster everywhere and although it does Overperform at Altitude historically, Gameplaywise it's still a LOT worse than the 109s. It's bad, just not as bad as it is supposed to be. 

In a Climb it's almost 18m/s until it overheats, but coming out of a Dogfight Situation it will climb at no more than 16.5m/s since Rads are already open. 

 

The thing is, if you can get the Yak to fly slowly and Full Power for a Minute, he will have to Open Rads and that will kill his Performance. Especially a careless 127 Pilot may open his Rads waaay too much and just leave you to finish him. 

 

In turn times the F-2 and F-4 tend to have about Half a Second worse Turn Times on the Deck in Combat Power and about a 1-2 Second advantage in Emergency. 

 

Surpisingly enough I have my greatest Dogfight Successes in Bf-110s and Ju-87s because they are much more stable turners with similar Wing Loadings and can just Out-Slow the Yaks effortlessly to be picked off by Comrades. And especially Yaks loose Wings so easily. I have often enough had these Super-High Deflection Shots, Spray and Pray, just to have a Monowing Yak plummet past my Windshield pouring with smoke. 

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

From flying caracteristica 109 and Yak very similar, 109 is faster Yaks turns slightly better farley closed match and fun...

The only thing thats extendended fully  out of the Way is the Yak Flaps because the energy hold and push over the AOA Limits is nothing you can ever prove with google.

For some good reason most of the Luftwaffe refuse to dogfight the Yak with smillar ingame paper stats (109 Pilots are all bad), but seems the new FM is also adressing towards this with general AOA limitations...

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

and better in vertical turns due to it's wing shape and area which induce less drag therefor less energy bleed.

Not sure I understand this correctly. My online experience with a 109 against a Yak, both planes in a vertical loop fight, you need to disengage when flying the 109 after just two loops otherwise it's game over for the 109 especially if the Yak engages flaps. Its vertical turn rate appears substantially better.

[JG27*Kornezov]

What many consider turn fight is meeting head-on and trying to turn around. That is not the way the 109 is going to have the upper hand, unless the yak pilot cannot hold his plane in a turn properly.

 

You have to be careful with the 109, the most important thing is to assess the other pilot's skills if he is as good as you, do not engage in turn fights. If he is really inferior to you you can engage but with a lot of hesitation and second thoughts. The reason is that  this is not going to be a quick kill and many things may happen meanwhile.

 

As for me, I am energy fighter. I engage in a turn-fight only when I have to transform energy for angles for a quicker kill. And this is what energy fighters do, pure boom zoom is just a fraction of the energy fighting possibilities.

 

If the yak deploys the flaps it is much better to make higher speed deflection passes as he is slow to evade them. 

 

Nevertheless the average pilots level in game is rather low so it is not so hard to win fights. The game is full with paper experts who can tell a lot of things about tactics on forums but fail to implement them in the game.

 

And last but not least there are secrets, that are hidden, as this is simulated war, people who know them have little incentive to tell the small details which are crucial.

Edited June 29, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov