How on earth do you fight a Yak-1

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

It can outrun,it can out climb,out turn the 109 when this was not the case in the real world I understand balance but they have tipped the scale to the Russian side even the I-16 which was overshadowed by even the very early 109s in Spain is a foe to fear in in the later model 109s like the F and G models. I was making a diving attack on a Yak earlier and I shot past at 600 kph next thing I know bam he's right on my tail and there was nothing I could do but head for the dirt and scrape him off on a tree. I had the energy advantage so explain how on earth he caught up and how to fight them in this game.

[BlitzPig_EL]

No offense but if you are getting beat by Yaks then you don't know how to fight the 109 properly, it's that simple.

 

The 4F is faster, climbs better, is better turning at high speeds, and can control the engagement at will, unless you are trying to turn fight the Yak at low altitude, and if you are doing that then you deserve to be shot down.

[Danziger]

Try turning the pilot skill level to Novice for beginning practice and move it up as you improve.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Bf 109 F-4 is better than the Yak-1 in both speed and climbrate, but that doesn't mean it's an I win button... if the energy state difference isn't big enough then it will be able to keep up at least for enough time to shoot at you.
 

 

The I-16 type 24 is a late version with a around 70% more engine power than the Spanish civil war ones, still the 109 F-4 enjoys a considerable speed advantage in level flight, from around 75 km/h at the deck to about 110 km/h at 2000 meters.

 

About difference in energy state and how it affects diving performance:

 

 

 

 

However, in some cases I suspect this is simply due to not disengaging in time: For example, say you are in a Fw and have been BnZ:ing a Yak for a while and he has manged to evade so you have burned a lot of your E advantage in the process. You see the Yak turning around to across the circle and decide it’s time to get out of dodge and straighten out and put the nose over. Say you have been greedy and allowed yourself too much time in the horizontal and the Yak has slight speed advantage, what would happen? Now since you follow the golden rule to never go below 300-400 Km/h in the Fw you are safe right? Maybe not: Assume that the Yak has a slight speed advantage, say 5% which would be 20 km/h in this case.

 

Surprisingly, the simulation shows that initially the “poorer diving” Yak actually CLOSES on you and it takes an agonizing 35 s before you actually start to increase the distance between you. So even a slight misjudgement about your opponents initial E state can be fatal: In this case the bogey only has a 5% speed advantage going into the dive and it still takes more than half a minute before you start to pull away…….

 

I think in this type of situation it would be easy to start blaming the FM because judging your relative E state within 5% is tricky to say the least: “I was in a Fw and there was a Yak on my tail and when I dived he still gained on me! Something is wrong with the FM!!!!!”

 

 

 

 

 

And last but not least:

Replace "Hellcat" by any plane that had a succesfull combat record. The Bf 109 was a better fighter than the Soviet ones, however the deciding factor of their success was the context in which these combats happened: The Soviets were using old tactics, most planes didn't have two-way radios, the crews had less training (even more in the first half of 1942). In MP servers there is a balanced playing field in regards to pilot skill distribution and access to TS/chat communication.

 

If you want to experience the historical results of the war then you have to simulate the context as well. Fly coordinated with your well skilled friends on TS against IAs with low dificulty or people who just started to get into the sim, with only the flight leader being able to talk in TS/chat, the rest of the flight would listen but not talk back in the best case ( they could be without any communication other than pilot gestures or rocking the wings)

Edited May 7, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Freycinet]

SuperEtandard, thanks for a very comprehensive and well-laid-out posting.

[Riderocket]

And to think that this thread is within a few days of this one.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29131-if-you-were-going-fight-russians

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

No offense but if you are getting beat by Yaks then you don't know how to fight the 109 properly, it's that simple.

 

The 4F is faster, climbs better, is better turning at high speeds, and can control the engagement at will, unless you are trying to turn fight the Yak at low altitude, and if you are doing that then you deserve to be shot down.

Im using boom and zoom tactics,I know better than to turn fight a yak but low altitude fighting is all there is on a dog fight server. I've tried a slow climb after engaging, Ive tried a fast climb after engaging,both of which the Yak seems to catch me,Ive tried heading to the dirt and out running them like I used to in Beta and they catch up.

Edited May 7, 2017 by II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

And to think that this thread is within a few days of this one.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29131-if-you-were-going-fight-russians

This ^^

 

Fight to your and your aircraft's strengths or perish in the process.

[Wulf]

It can outrun,it can out climb,out turn the 109 when this was not the case in the real world I understand balance but they have tipped the scale to the Russian side even the I-16 which was overshadowed by even the very early 109s in Spain is a foe to fear in in the later model 109s like the F and G models. I was making a diving attack on a Yak earlier and I shot past at 600 kph next thing I know bam he's right on my tail and there was nothing I could do but head for the dirt and scrape him off on a tree. I had the energy advantage so explain how on earth he caught up and how to fight them in this game.

 

 

Despite what you're being told here you are correct if you have come to the conclusion that the Soviet aircraft in the game provide very formidable opposition. The Yak-1b is particularly difficult to deal with and is capable of 530 kph in sustained level flight down on the deck.  The La-5 (with perma-boost) is even faster but the Yak is the more maneuverable of the two and is the more capable at altitude.

 

I fly the FW 190 not the the Bf 109 but the tactics you should employ are somewhat similar.   In short, if you fly alone (not advisable but many people do) stay above the fight and stay fast.  Drop down, nibble at the enemy then get back up to altitude.  Do not turn!  Dive, shoot if the opportunity arises, stay straight and then climb.  Don't drop down below the level of the enemy in your dives.  Always remain above.  Avoid head to head encounters with zoom-climbing Soviet fighters. If the vertical gap between you and the enemy closes, regain the altitude advantage if you can, but if that's impractical, exit the fight.  If you start getting slow re-build your speed before re-entering the fight.

[Feathered_IV]

The Yak probably didn't follow you directly in your near vertical dive. He would have intercepted you at the point where you levelled out, allowing him to cut the corner.

[Lusekofte]

Her is my point of view, and I am not trolling . If it was so that you in a 109 could dive down to anyone and make a kill every time. Would it be fun in the long run? 

I know all about frustration in this game, but deep down I know, if I get to target every time with no opposition I might just aswell fly qmb missions.

Adapting and learning is a factor worth paying attention to, it is really what keep you going. If the yak win every time, you are doing it wrong, and do not get me wrong, how people hit a small manouvereable yak at all is beyond my knowledge. You are probably a much better fighterpilot than me.

[OrLoK]

Goodness! As a Yak 1 pilot i live in fear of any 109 especially if the pilot is vaguely competent.

 

Boom and zoom is their hallmark but they're not invincible.

 

Ive downed 3 in my BoS time all mainly through luck or the pilot making a mistake.

 

My advice? Practice, practice, practice.

 

You are flying a superior machine but not an insta gib vehicle.

 

Learn it's strengths and learn our weaknesses.

 

I wish i could climb like you guys.

[Finkeren]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

[gnomechompsky]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

 

 

Perish the thought!  A quick check of WoL stats shows that most people complaining about Russian fighters exclusively fly LW.  They must really just enjoy the challenge of flying such inferior planes.

[A_radek]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

This.

[216th_Jordan]

Another thing also to consider: The german plaes are more fragile (mainly 109s - 190 is actually tougher than soviet planes) and going low into a turnfight is definitely advised against. If however you come with a wingman the advantage of superior climbrate and speed really pays off. A lone 109 or 190 can't do too much, a pair of them can be hell for opponents.

Edited May 8, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[ShamrockOneFive]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

 

I want to highlight this thinking as much as possible. I think some folks suffer from "grass is greener" syndrome and think that the enemy has some sort of magical advantage that they don't. Fly for the other side for a while (not 1 sortie and say "SEEE!!") and then benefit from the experience.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

 

 

a pair of them can be hell for opponents.

This.

I fly alone most of the time (occasionally picking up someone or getting invited to fly out) and I fly VVS, mostly La5s, Yaks and Pe2s. A pair of 109s (or anything for that matter) is absolutely awful to fly against.  

[19//Moach]

which leads to one of my favourite quotes from myself:   All you can do alone is die!

 

 

and this gives the original question, of "how do you fight <insert plane here>?"  a clear and simple answer:  Not alone

Edited May 8, 2017 by 19//Moach

[-SF-Disarray]

I find I have to agree with most here. A 109 is more than capable of killing anything the Soviets field; I've learned this from hard won experience. That said, a fair fight, that being a 1v1 fight, is a poorly planned fight.

 

Another advantage to putting in some time with the other side's planes is you will develop a feel for how they can perform when you are fighting against them. Know your enemy and all that.

[Nightrise]

which leads to one of my favourite quotes from myself:   All you can do alone is die!

 

 

and this gives the original question, of "how do you fight <insert plane here>?"  a clear and simple answer:  Not alone

I always fly in at least a pair, sometimes in a groups of 8 or more. but never alone. 

[Wulf]

 That said, a fair fight, that being a 1v1 fight, is a poorly planned fight.

 

 

 

 

Yes, in the real world I guess that's probably so.  However this isn't the RW is it; it's just a game.  So, you can play because you like  being part of a team, or because you like the company of other gamers, or because, God forbid, you enjoy pitting your skills, such as they are, against those of another gamer, in a one on one.   There's no right and wrong here - it's just entertainment.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Wulf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I don't always agree with Wulffie but he's hit that one out of the park. My style is not your style, is not his style. There is room for all in this little sandbox.

Edited May 9, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Willy__]

It can outrun,it can out climb,out turn the 109 when this was not the case in the real world I understand balance but they have tipped the scale to the Russian side even the I-16 which was overshadowed by even the very early 109s in Spain is a foe to fear in in the later model 109s like the F and G models. I was making a diving attack on a Yak earlier and I shot past at 600 kph next thing I know bam he's right on my tail and there was nothing I could do but head for the dirt and scrape him off on a tree. I had the energy advantage so explain how on earth he caught up and how to fight them in this game.

 

 

As others already explained, you absolute must keep your speed up! Perhaps you are pulling up way too soon, after making a diving attack on the yak, dont immediatelly go up, look at him, see if he's waiting for you to overshoot and get on your six, if he does that, just continue flying straight, using all that speed gathered on the dive, after you see you are getting some distance from the enemy you start a shallow climb, dont let the speed drop below 300! If you think you are being chased climb at a higher speed, 350-400kph seems fine. Assuming there are no other enemies around, using this tactic will get you great sucess!

 

Dont let ever the russians get within firing distance, the way the game is now you need a lot of hits to down the [Edited], but they only need a very quick burst before the 109 is toast, the tail section is particularly fragile, so dont let them get a shot ever, not even the tinyiest remote chance of getting a shot on you! "Hmmm what a nice headon..." Nope, dont even think about it.

 

Remember: speed is life; altitude is life insurance. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Bearcat

[Czar66]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

 

I could never get my head around the one sided arguments in this forum since my debut on the game in 2014. That may because I'm used to fly all the factions possible, who would of known...

 

Great thoughts as usual, Finkeren.

 

 

To OP, there are several ways you can investigate further the mechanics between the fighters already laid down in this thread, mainly by helpful people, so I wouldn't waste your time making a long text to read. As said, try the Yak, exposure yourself as much as possible to combat experience on both sides. Other sources outside the forum are also welcome, if applicable in this sim.

 

Best of luck!

[Ribbon]

Go in turn fight with him on low alt.

Never climb and never run away.

 

 

 

Yak pilot!

[ITAF_Rani]

Stay fast....check the environment...if you have your SA is satisfied, make a fast attack...if your aim is good,usually after a first pass that's enough to inflict a severe damage....so runaway,checking your 6 and taking alt again

[Livai]

If an E-7 is able to defeat the Yak makes me wonder what others do wrong?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyoyxNcUhaU
 
And Rolling Scissors works everytime if your timing is right

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVWeWWAFjKg

 

Or slow down the enemy where only the pilot skill & timing determine the outcome

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFjfpmbNoGw

 

 

Found this three videos on youtube from someone that show more or less how I do it everytime never had an problem to cut through the enemy lines ->

BTW it shows both situation no matter what plane you fly Yak or the 109s great to watch and to learn how to fly the planes much better...............................................

Edited May 9, 2017 by Livai

[ShamrockOneFive]

The recently announced TacView support will probably help a lot here. Would be potentially great to examine a players difficulties and have the community chime in on how best to improve. I mean that. It could be a useful tool to help with tactics and technique.

Edited May 9, 2017 by ShamrockOneFive

[Wulf]

If an E-7 is able to defeat the Yak makes me wonder what others do wrong?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyoyxNcUhaU

 

And Rolling Scissors works everytime if your timing is right

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVWeWWAFjKg

 

Or slow down the enemy where only the pilot skill & timing determine the outcome

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFjfpmbNoGw

 

 

Found this three videos on youtube from someone that show more or less how I do it everytime never had an problem to cut through the enemy lines ->

BTW it shows both situation no matter what plane you fly Yak or the 109s great to watch and to learn how to fly the planes much better...............................................

 

 

This is the sort of stuff that happens when we you get caught down low with our pants around our ankles.  The outcome is 50/50 at best.   Avoid this sort of thing if at all possible.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Wulf

[Finkeren]

This is the sort of stuff that happens when we you get caught with our pants around our ankles.  It's 50/50 at best.

 

50/50 with your pants around your ankles, I'd call that pretty good odds. If an La-5 gets caught low and slow, he's done.

[Livai]

This is the sort of stuff that happens when we you get caught down low with our pants around our ankles.  The outcome is 50/50 at best.   Avoid this sort of thing if at all possible.

 

50/50 is more than enough......

In the right hands every weapon is deadly.

I cut through them like butter.

[Ypsan]

If you want to train discipline I suggest flying macchi. With Breda's low RoF and muzzle velocity BnZ doesn't work nearly as good as with 109. So you have stay aggressive and stick close for the kill which means you have learn to fly with small E advantage over your enemy. Once you become confident in macchi you will fly a 109 to its full potential and not as a BnZ fighter exclusively. Hopefully one day me too.

[deleted@31403]

My advice: Try ditching the 109 and fly the Yaks exclusively online for a while. Then come back and tell me, that 109s can't do anything against them.

 

If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make.

 

Quote of the day. Nicely said.

"If you don't try the other side of the equation, you really have no complaint to make."

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

IN IL2 - BOX.

PLANES ARE NOT ALTERED OR BALANCED FOR THE GAME OR FAIRNESS.
ALL PLANES ARE THE BEST HISTORICAL REPRESENTATION THEY COULD MAKE.

The devs are awesome and will not "balance" IL2 like MMO's who balance a planes performance if it wins or looses to much.
There is no BIAS in IL2 Get over it

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

IN IL2 - BOX.

 

PLANES ARE NOT ALTERED OR BALANCED FOR THE GAME OR FAIRNESS.

ALL PLANES ARE THE BEST HISTORICAL REPRESENTATION THEY COULD MAKE.

 

The devs are awesome and will not "balance" IL2 like MMO's who balance a planes performance if it wins or looses to much.

There is no BIAS in IL2 Get over it

Well they will not do that but they can simple choice to model different version of the plane or use other source materials.

BTW look at changes made to Fw190... And balancing Eindecker eIII vs Airco Dh2...(Rof) Overall they doing good job and they have more things to think about that we know about. Anyway we have right to disagree in civil manner.

[Finkeren]

IN IL2 - BOX.

 

PLANES ARE NOT ALTERED OR BALANCED FOR THE GAME OR FAIRNESS.

ALL PLANES ARE THE BEST HISTORICAL REPRESENTATION THEY COULD MAKE.

 

The devs are awesome and will not "balance" IL2 like MMO's who balance a planes performance if it wins or looses to much.

There is no BIAS in IL2 Get over it

Agree, but I'm not sure shouting it in all-caps is going to be particularly convincing to anyone.

[303_Kwiatek]

Fact is that BOS yaks never got such performamce in real life. Overheating oil and engine needed full open radiator in climbs which cause only 15 m/s maximum climb rate where in game is near 17 m/s. Also speed at high alts and performance is over. Looking at VVS test of German captured 109s thier turn times were about 1 second better then BOS 109s. Yaks got again turn times on the best side. VVS turn test betwen 109 F4 with broken supercharger prooved that 109 was better in turn at low alt. Higher alt test wasnt accurate cause of broken 109 supercharger wher still 109 was co mparable with Yak1 69 serie.

[JG13_opcode]

Fact is that BOS yaks never got such performamce in real life. Overheating oil and engine needed full open radiator in climbs which cause only 15 m/s maximum climb rate where in game is near 17 m/s. Also speed at high alts and performance is over. Looking at VVS test of German captured 109s thier turn times were about 1 second better then BOS 109s. Yaks got again turn times on the best side. VVS turn test betwen 109 F4 with broken supercharger prooved that 109 was better in turn at low alt. Higher alt test wasnt accurate cause of broken 109 supercharger wher still 109 was co mparable with Yak1 69 serie.

Yeah, it's true that in some cases the Soviet aircraft overperform. The constant-speed prop on the Yak-1 is magical and you never overspeed even in a 700 km/h dive at full throttle. Similarly, last time I checked you could leave mixture at full rich up to like 4500 metres, which you definitely can't do IRL. The LaGG is something like 60 km/h too fast at altitude, etc.

 

However the 109s are definitely overperforming too, or at least the F-4 was last time I checked. Sometimes the fatal mistake was made well before the engagement starts (you let them get an energy advantage over you, or you forgot to check 6, etc.) In those cases, you really deserve/expect to get shot down, and you should consider not getting shot down to be a big win. However if (and that's a big if) you fly with discipline, you should be able to convert an even-terms merge into an energy advantage in the F-4 against anything but a MiG-3 up high. If I can do it, so can you.

Edited May 12, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[Gambit21]

Maybe he trod on a Lego brick in bare feet whilst typing, so it was involuntary shouting?

That got a laugh out of me.