If you were going to fight for the Russians

[Fern]

[edited]

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[Livai]

The Yak-1B is nice to follow the climb from an 109. Makes the German pilot wonder   why he is not able to shake this Yak away from his tail even vertical the Yak is still on his tail. It is how it is the Yak-1B is a beast ->  

[Ribbon]

I use flaps as last resort, when losing energy become irrelevant!

[Inkophile]

Maybe a higher speed penalty would be needed for these small flap extensions. Something about this is mentioned in the La-5 manual that @Inkompetent has been translating for some days, if you can post some of that detailed info here it would be great! (I know it isn't the same plane... but maybe could serve as a comparison).

 

Haven't got quite as far as seeing any mention of flap use other than possibly using it for take-off and landing (and even for landing it isn't seen as mandatory in the La-5, although recommended). However I'll focus more on the aerobatics-chapters and see if those hold any answers.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Haven't got quite as far as seeing any mention of flap use other than possibly using it for take-off and landing (and even for landing it isn't seen as mandatory in the La-5, although recommended). However I'll focus more on the aerobatics-chapters and see if those hold any answers.

 

What I meant was the warning about speed penalty for not raising the flaps completely, if they give any indication like: "Even with just 5° of flaps, the plane loses X km/h". But what you say can be helpful as well.

[Inkophile]

What I meant was the warning about speed penalty for not raising the flaps completely, if they give any indication like: "Even with just 5° of flaps, the plane loses X km/h". But what you say can be helpful as well.

 

Oh, right. Yeah. Even flaps deployed at high speed (i.e. barely deployed at all because of the forces pushing against them) can in the La-5FN cause a loss of 20 kph top speed. That's more than a fully open canopy would. Gives some perspective of how much the wings (and the turbulence behind them) matter for a plane's drag. Due to relatively similar wings I'd presume the effect in for example a Yak is similar.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Inkompetent

[JG27*Kornezov]

In the old game towards the end, there was a server where we were facing 109 f4 against Yak 1. The Yak 1 there was a different thing than the Yak 1 in this game BoS, because it has the same engine than the Yak 1 b.

So there if you fly a Yak 1 against the 109 f4 or 109 f2 you were totally outclassed. That means that it was extremely challenging because we were outperformed in every possible way, for that reason as we flew  for the red we preferred the hurricanes in order to know that we had at least one advantage, the turning advantage. The server is down, RIP Vinipuh Server.

 

The yak 1 b versus Bf 109 f4 was a different thing. The Yak 1 b was more than capable to hold its own and ever outperform the 109 f4 in a turn fight. I am telling you from first hand experience in the older game that to fly the regular Yak 1 against 109 f4 and f2 was a pain in the ass. You needed a sound team tactics and some energy advantage.
 

 

 

The speed differences in the both games are within 5% which is normal, and they tell the same story the Yak 1 b is faster on deck, the only way out for the 109 is to climb away.

 

However what many people have in this forum is the technical understanding of flying performance. What few people have online  is proper flying technique and proper pilot training.

 

Even if a normal pilot is flying a Yak 1b which is 5% better performing  in turns against a bf 109f4, if the German pilot is  better in handling his plane he could outperform the Yak.

That happened to me so many times, most of the time I have no problem to outturn a Yak, not because the Yak is not turning well, but because its pilot cannot get the performance out of his plane. And in many cases I know the pilots by name which I cannot outturn. The same is for the i16.

As this simulator is getting more and more realistic the flying technique is getting more and more important. And very few people have a clue how really to fly to the limit and how to perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers, The only thing they can do is to fly coordinated at best.

Just go on Berloga, when Davidred is present and you can see, how he does not even care,  he can outmaneuver from any situation the Yaks, and he deliberately puts himself in difficult situations to train that. Or at least watch his videos. How he is doing that I cannot tell, even if I decoded and try to imitate some of his maneuvers.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28333-9jg27/

Edited June 10, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

-snip-

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28333-9jg27/

An exceptional, fair write up. Very refreshing to hear something like this come from someone with a JG tag.

 

Entirely too often it's the complete opposite. And even more often, blatant, unfounded whining.

[senseispcc]

Give me a Yak-3 or a La-7 and all the other side planes can go visit hell.   

[Tomsk]

[..] I now realise the real key to winning dogfights is knowing your planes strengths and working to them. Next time I'm going go head straight for the deck and try to fight above the tree line.

 

So I thought I'd reply to this as it's a really classic beginner thought. Yes knowing your planes strengths and weaknesses is very helpful, but far more important than that is understanding energy. Virtually irrespective of which plane you're in if you hold the energy advantage you get to dictate the fight. Think the 109 is faster than the Yak 1? Well not if the Yak 1 has the energy advantage. Think the Yak 1 will out turn that 109? Not necessarily if the 109 has a substantial energy advantage. Think the 109 will outclimb the Yak in a vertical manoeuvre? Not if the Yak has the energy advantage. Pretty much all of these characteristics can be (temporarily) negated by energy. As someone said earlier in the thread, you can't really compare planes except in co-energy situations. Precisely right, because if the energy states are significantly dissimilar then that is far more likely to dictate the fight then any performance characteristic. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Tomsk

[FTC_Riksen]

In the old game towards the end, there was a server where we were facing 109 f4 against Yak 1. The Yak 1 there was a different thing than the Yak 1 in this game BoS, because it has the same engine than the Yak 1 b.

So there if you fly a Yak 1 against the 109 f4 or 109 f2 you were totally outclassed. That means that it was extremely challenging because we were outperformed in every possible way, for that reason as we flew  for the red we preferred the hurricanes in order to know that we had at least one advantage, the turning advantage. The server is down, RIP Vinipuh Server.

 

The yak 1 b versus Bf 109 f4 was a different thing. The Yak 1 b was more than capable to hold its own and ever outperform the 109 f4 in a turn fight. I am telling you from first hand experience in the older game that to fly the regular Yak 1 against 109 f4 and f2 was a pain in the ass. You needed a sound team tactics and some energy advantage.

 

 

 

The speed differences in the both games are within 5% which is normal, and they tell the same story the Yak 1 b is faster on deck, the only way out for the 109 is to climb away.

 

However what many people have in this forum is the technical understanding of flying performance. What few people have online  is proper flying technique and proper pilot training.

 

Even if a normal pilot is flying a Yak 1b which is 5% better performing  in turns against a bf 109f4, if the German pilot is  better in handling his plane he could outperform the Yak.

That happened to me so many times, most of the time I have no problem to outturn a Yak, not because the Yak is not turning well, but because its pilot cannot get the performance out of his plane. And in many cases I know the pilots by name which I cannot outturn. The same is for the i16.

As this simulator is getting more and more realistic the flying technique is getting more and more important. And very few people have a clue how really to fly to the limit and how to perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers, The only thing they can do is to fly coordinated at best.

Just go on Berloga, when Davidred is present and you can see, how he does not even care,  he can outmaneuver from any situation the Yaks, and he deliberately puts himself in difficult situations to train that. Or at least watch his videos. How he is doing that I cannot tell, even if I decoded and try to imitate some of his maneuvers.https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28333-9jg27/

  

So I thought I'd reply to this as it's a really classic beginner thought. Yes knowing your planes strengths and weaknesses is very helpful, but far more important than that is understanding energy. Virtually irrespective of which plane you're in if you hold the energy advantage you get to dictate the fight. Think the 109 is faster than the Yak 1? Well not if the Yak 1 has the energy advantage. Think the Yak 1 will out turn that 109? Not necessarily if the 109 has a substantial energy advantage. Think the 109 will outclimb the Yak in a vertical manoeuvre? Not if the Yak has the energy advantage. Pretty much all of these characteristics can be (temporarily) negated by energy. As someone said earlier in the thread, you can't really compare planes except in co-energy situations. Precisely right, because if the energy states are significantly dissimilar then that is far more likely to dictate the fight then any performance characteristic.

 

You can turn fight like a mad man on a 109 all u wabt and score kills but eventually thats gonna get u killed. No human being can keep SA in turn fights for too long. You also place urself in a very bad position: low and slow. The 109 gives you all the tolls to be safe and survive. It climbs better and it can be faster at higher altitudes. Like Tomsk said, most people that complain about thr 109 are simply not doing a great job at reading the enemy's energy state. Although I agree there is some merit in the complains about the yaks low speed handling and flap use.

[JtD]

Yes knowing your planes strengths and weaknesses is very helpful, but far more important than that is understanding energy.

Knowing your planes (relative) strengths and weaknesses is essential to successfully managing energy. Your examples will get you through the next 30 seconds, but knowing relative performance is what will get you home safe in the end. Because performance determines how energy changes over time, and managing energy is what tactics are about.

 

So knowing planes strengths and working to them is certainly not a classic beginners thought, it's an essential.

[Tomsk]

Knowing your planes (relative) strengths and weaknesses is essential to successfully managing energy. Your examples will get you through the next 30 seconds, but knowing relative performance is what will get you home safe in the end. Because performance determines how energy changes over time, and managing energy is what tactics are about.

 

So knowing planes strengths and working to them is certainly not a classic beginners thought, it's an essential.

 

We don't disagree. To be clear the "beginners thought" I'm referring to is to first think about performance characteristics and forgetting about energy. ScuMattly's plan of heading straight for the tree line is an example of this beginners mistake I was referring to. I see this thought come up so often in discussions and in the way people fly. People asking questions like: how did that Yak beat me in that climb when my plane climbs better? Answer: he had the energy. Why did that plane catch up to me when my plane is faster? Answer: he had the energy. Why did that plane out turn me when my plane turns better? Answer: he had the energy. Yes performance characteristics affect how the energy situation changes over time, and you need to know that. But knowing the performance characteristics is of little use if you don't understand energy.

[Beazil]

.....and so, once again, mortally wounded, the first tongues of flame starting to lick across the rapidly blistering paint work, the thread begins to wing over before spiralling down to it's inevitable doom !!!

My thoughts exactly.

 

On topic: la5 would be my choice. Reminds me of the FW.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Beazil

[JG27*Kornezov]

When you fly longer than an year you get some knowledge into performance characteristics, unless you are resistant to teaching.

 

Everything what is written in this thread after my post is 100% correct. You need to understand your plane characteristics, the enemy plane characteristics, the comparative performance characteristics.
The you have to evaluate your energy status, the enemy energy status, and the resulting energy status.

It may sound complicated and probably is, as I do not know a shortcut to experience.

However I want to bring the discussion a little further into discussing more concrete aspects of the fight. Or how to make the transition from theoretical knowledge into something more practical.

However long time ago into a different simulator that kind of study was published. I will find the author, as I do not remember his name.

Actually you have a matrix of states.

                    Angles
                    Offensive     Neutral         Defensive
Energy      

               
Rich  

 

Co-energy       

Poor

 

Then looking at the combinations:
Energy Rich Angles offensive

Energy Rich Angles Neutral
Energy Rich angles Defensive

etc.

 

So for each combination you need beforehand to establish a tactic.

It is easy in 1vs. 1 situation but super complicated in many versus many situations.

 

So as a super simplification an energy fighter fights only in two states.
100 offensive - You have the upper hand and you maneuver.

100 defensive- you fu**d up somewhere and you got bounced, and you have to defend.

In every intermediary state he does not want engage because he does not want to get into a situation of 50/50.

On the other hand a yak in co-energy situation with neutral angular situation he would like to engage and outurn the 109.

In this same situation a savvy 109 would like to extend and climb away, gain an energy advantage and come back at better turns.
But if the Yak pilot is good he will nullify all his high energy passes and he will have to make a transition from energy advantage to angles fight. Here come back the piloting skills.

Also shooting skills, also can nullify energy advantage.

And also it depends on which server you play and what you want to achieve. Very high kill to death ration may become a boring experience, and I can tell you that from first hand, having achieved 42 kills to death last month on Wings.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[LLv34_adexu]

-snip-

having achieved 42 kills to death last month on Wings.

 

 

 

In Yak-1b or Pe-2? ;=)

 

And to the OP. Yak-1b. The view to the 6 and plane abilities, best thing you can get for a starter pilot.

Edited June 12, 2017 by LLv34_adexu

[LLv24_Zami]

In Yak-1b or Pe-2? ;=)

 

 

My money is on P-40

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

My money is on P-40

P-40 is King. 

[Cpt_Cool]

Hopefully soon they nerf the #OP-40

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Hopefully soon they nerf the #OP-40

Yeah, Russian Bias, bet they will bring 2-oP as well, RIP Germans. 

 

2-oP --> Po-2

 

[Beazil]

Hopefully soon they nerf the #OP-40

Emphasis here!

[JG27*Kornezov]

This thread is a perfect example how a possibly meaningful discussion goes nowhere simply because there are people who just throll and spam, having nothing to add to the discussion. I am out I do ot have any more time to spend.

Edited June 13, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[Mirtma]

I wonder if we will be able to reflect the success of the P 39 . I am very keen to see how it will perform in this game

 

P-39 was one of my favorites in original IL2. Can't wait for it.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

In the old game towards the end, there was a server where we were facing 109 f4 against Yak 1. The Yak 1 there was a different thing than the Yak 1 in this game BoS, because it has the same engine than the Yak 1 b.

So there if you fly a Yak 1 against the 109 f4 or 109 f2 you were totally outclassed. That means that it was extremely challenging because we were outperformed in every possible way, for that reason as we flew  for the red we preferred the hurricanes in order to know that we had at least one advantage, the turning advantage.

 

Yes, very good insight. Another thing to consider about IL-2 1946 is that with the Bf 109 you can use 1.42 ata continuously (you would overheat in the long run, but still it had much more use than in BoS), and the Bf 109 G-2 which was usually paired with the Yak-1B and Yak-9 had the late 1.42 setting available (making it the best Bf 109 until the G-10 version imho).