If you were going to fight for the Russians

[SCuMattly]

Hi all

 

I have really enjoying my time playing BoS and I have become very comfortable using the Yak 1. However last night I meet my first player flying a BF 109 and I couldn't catch him. He would close on me, strafe and then climb sharply and force me to try and follow. I would slowly lose speed and soon realised all I was doing was making myself an easier target. 

 

My question to you is " which Russian plane will best compete with the 109?".

 

Cheers in advance.

[PatrickAWlson]

Depends on when.  I would want to be in a Lagg5, but that is later.  Earlier I would like my chances best in a YAK.  In either a well flown 109 is going to have the advantage, as long as he sticks to his strengths.

[Nibbio]

il2 1941 with a Volkov-Yartsev VYa-23 mm cannon. As long as the 109 driver has not yet seen you and you are fast with a few hundreds meters altitude advantage

 

Wait till you can see the white of his terrified eyes: one short squeeze of the trigger and he's toast.

[Finkeren]

In this sim no Soviet fighter can fight on even terms with the later 109s except right down on the deck, where the Yaks have about parity.

 

Basically the Bf 109s sit at the no. 1 spot on the two most important parameters that allow you to dictate a fight: Speed and climb rate.

 

However, how we fight in the sim tells us very little about how it was in real life. In real life the German dominance in the air was only partly based on having the best-performing aircraft. Better radio equipment, more advanced tactics, better training (for most of the war) played a much greater role.

 

Also we have to take into account, that we fight and fly very different from how people actually did during the war. Most of us use rudimentary team tactics at best, we attack suicidally at any given opportunity and we constantly ride our aircraft and engines to the very edge of their capabilities. We seldom disengage and when we do we are often hunted mercilessly. In other words: We act like it's all just a game, which it is.

 

 

In answer to your question: The best Soviet fighter to deal with 109s has to be the Yak-1b, it matches the 109s amazing maneuverability while still being fast enough and climb well enough to not allow the German an immediate escape, and also it has that perfect 360 cockpit view.

 

Historically I'd argue, that the Yak was probably less effective for the actual war than for the kind of airborne brawling we engage in. If forced to choose a Soviet fighter to fly in real life combat, I'd probably go with the La-7.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Finkeren

[HagarTheHorrible]

It all depends on the server, icon's enabled I'd go for the Il16, most opponents unless they are really good or disciplined eventually lose energy, make a mistake or just end up turning and burning and the great thing about the IL16 is it allows you to easily defeat high energy attacks by turning into the attack and defeating his guns solution with a chance of nibbling bits out of him as he tries to regain position or energy.  i suspect the Il16 is actually a little too capable and forgiving but against most opponents is a deadly adversary, I'm not complaining, they can keep there super duper, fan dabby dozy uber planes I'm sticking with old and slow Joe.

[von_Tom]

 

Pe2 because whoever attacked you would be shot down by your gunners and/or killed immediately.

 

Plus, with Stalinwood you have a great chance of getting home.

 

Von Tom

 

 

ps. It's not that I've had bad experiences against Pe2s you understand...

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

There is no LaGG-5. There is a LaGG-3 M-82 or the La-5, two Names, same Airplane, LaG-5 was the designation for 1 Prototype. Gudkov and Gorbunov had their own Design Bureaus at the time the LaGG-3 M-82/La-5 was put into Production.

 

There is no Russian Fighter that can reliably Overmatch any German Fighter, but here are some General Considerations. 

 

Yak-1 69: She is the Jack of all Traits, Master of None. Above 5000m it's quite useless and you will find yourself helpless against Smart German Fighters. However, having rather low Wing Loading means you can still Surprise Arrogant Enemies. 

Speed and Climb are unimpressive at all Altitudes, not Bad but definetly not on par with the 109s. They will Outclass you, so you have to Outsmart them. You are no Easy Target either however and can give them quite a Hard Time.

 

La-5: She is quite decent up to 6k, but she excells below 2000m. Top Speed down here is superior to all 109s unless they are at 1 Minute Power. She will Outclimb all up to 2000m except the Gustavs. 

So, if you can engage 109s below 2000m the La-5 is your Choice, especially with the M-82F engine available. 

 

LaGG-3: She is basically a bit Worse in everything Performance Related to the Yak, a bit slower, a bit worse to climb, less manouverable, however better at high Speeds and more Firepower do give you an Advantage if you can get the first Blow. 

Rate of Roll is quite Good. 

 

I-16: Phenomenally Good Climb and Roll and Goot Turning Abilities as well (but you shouldn't rely on them). I have given quite a number of 109s and 190s a nasty Surprise with the ability to climb after them when they go Steep. 

You have 1200hp in a 2 ton Plane. And the 4 Shkas will frustrate Germans to the Point of Bailing Out. 

 

MiG-3: A bit on the Opposite side of the Yak, very good overall Performance at the Cost of Manouverability (which is horrible). Speed is definetly competitive. 

 

Yak-1 127: The additional Speed means that keeping up with Level 109s is no Problem anymore and so the only way out for them is to Climb.

 

P-40: My Favourite once you get used to it. The Firepower is devastating and High Speed Handling is very Good. You have to learn to compensate for the Lack of Power with absolute Aggression and Smart Energy Management. She will go very Fast in a Dive and Kill anything in Convergence Range in Milliseconds. And at low Speeds she actually handles quite nicely. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

It all depends on the server, icon's enabled I'd go for the Il16, most opponents unless they are really good or disciplined eventually lose energy, make a mistake or just end up turning and burning and the great thing about the IL16 is it allows you to easily defeat high energy attacks by turning into the attack and defeating his guns solution with a chance of nibbling bits out of him as he tries to regain position or energy.  i suspect the Il16 is actually a little too capable and forgiving but against most opponents is a deadly adversary, I'm not complaining, they can keep there super duper, fan dabby dozy uber planes I'm sticking with old and slow Joe.

 

We have an I-16 Type 24 (not IL-16) which is actually a pretty decent performer historically. The Germans faced all varieties of I-16 models during the first months of the war and many of them were much further behind in performance compared to the Bf109E-7 or F-2 that were available at the time. The Type 24 that we have represents close to the peak of I-16 performance and though obsolete is close enough in parity to the Bf109E-7 to be able to at least fight credibly. I wouldn't say that it was overdone as it certainly has performance shortfalls as well as historical quirks in its stability.

[SCuMattly]

Man what awesome responses to the question. 

 

Thanks so much everyone, so much good info here. 

 

I was battling the BF109 in VR and at times my heart was pounding and I was looking over my shoulder the whole time. Unquestionably the best VR experience I have had and I now realise the real key to winning dogfights is knowing your planes strengths and working to them. Next time I'm going go head straight for the deck and try to fight above the tree line.

 

Have a good weekend everyone.  

[ShamrockOneFive]

Some great responses and measured information on what Russian types are good at and what they aren't good at.

 

Glad to hear you're having a good time and that the VR is spectacular (I keep hearing that)! Enjoy some flying this weekend!

[HagarTheHorrible]

We have an I-16 Type 24 (not IL-16) which is actually a pretty decent performer historically. The Germans faced all varieties of I-16 models during the first months of the war and many of them were much further behind in performance compared to the Bf109E-7 or F-2 that were available at the time. The Type 24 that we have represents close to the peak of I-16 performance and though obsolete is close enough in parity to the Bf109E-7 to be able to at least fight credibly. I wouldn't say that it was overdone as it certainly has performance shortfalls as well as historical quirks in its stability.

Quite right, but at the same time there are qualities, or not, that either aren't modelled or don't translate well into a flight sim environment, obviously not just with the I-16, that relegated the real aircraft long before a simple performance analysis might suggest.

[Wulf]

Man what awesome responses to the question. 

 

Thanks so much everyone, so much good info here. 

 

I was battling the BF109 in VR and at times my heart was pounding and I was looking over my shoulder the whole time. Unquestionably the best VR experience I have had and I now realise the real key to winning dogfights is knowing your planes strengths and working to them. Next time I'm going go head straight for the deck and try to fight above the tree line.

 

Have a good weekend everyone.  

 

 

You could do that; attempt to fight just above the treetops if you wished but I think you misunderstanding what you've been told.

 

I don't fly in Soviet planes but I do love it when they skim the treetops and start turning defensively in ever decreasing circles.  At that point you've pretty much got yourself a fish in a barrel.  If there are no other Reds around to jump-in and ruin the fun you can now take your time as the poor hapless bastard bleeds away all of his energy.  Just keep the pressure on him and invariably you'll inflict damage on him, and then kill him.  Avoid that trap if you can.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Wulf

[FlyingNutcase]

Mattly, no further advice about Red planes but if you want to connect in person, I'm a Jafa too, on the North Shore. Feel free to PM. And if you want to demo your VR I'd be all in, lol. 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Pe2 because whoever attacked you would be shot down by your gunners and/or killed immediately.

 

Plus, with Stalinwood you have a great chance of getting home.

 

Von Tom

 

 

ps. It's not that I've had bad experiences against Pe2s you understand...

Thats only really on WoL where "most" PE2 gunners are set to Ace skill level in the missions files (sadly thats about 150-175% Intended actual skill by the DEVS going by the comparable Accuracy in a 111 thats set to Normal skill)

 

Or Pe2 gunners 55-65% Accuracy on WoL

111 Gunners 0.2 - 1% Accuracy on WoL

 

but thats another argument more along the lines of

Multiplayer missions should have locked Plane Parameters Hard coded controlled by the DEVS of IL2 only and not any mission maker

[gnomechompsky]

As has already been stated, no Russian fighter has the advantage against a 109 F4 who has a smart pilot. The Russian planes are very manoeuvrable, but there is only so many times you can dodge a boom and zoom on the deck. Fortunately, many LW pilots in multiplayer do recklessly get involved in dogfights.

 

My other point would be fly high. Most Russian players seem to scorn flying above 3k, but if you can equally boom and zoom a German plane that is below you, and a yak that starts a dogfight with higher energy is likely to win.

[FTC_Etherlight]

I think people don't give the Yak-1B enough credit. I personally think it's on very equal footing to the 109 F4. Faster on deck, slower at altitude, slightly better maneuverability, excellent climber...My short answer to OP would be: Fly the Yak-1B, it's a beast and will give the 109 a run for it's money. :D

Personally I'm a huge fan of the La-5, which is definitely competitive, but objectively the Yak-1B is a better plane overall.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

As has already been stated, no Russian fighter has the advantage against a 109 F4 who has a smart pilot. The Russian planes are very manoeuvrable, but there is only so many times you can dodge a boom and zoom on the deck. Fortunately, many LW pilots in multiplayer do recklessly get involved in dogfights.

 

My other point would be fly high. Most Russian players seem to scorn flying above 3k, but if you can equally boom and zoom a German plane that is below you, and a yak that starts a dogfight with higher energy is likely to win.

Yes, Arrogance is what kills most German Pilots. Yes, a 109 can climb very steeply, but so can the Yak, just not for as long, but often long enough to get a desperate Firing Solution. Just putting your Nose up 60° in a 109 doesn't mean you're magically shielded all of a sudden. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

 Just putting your Nose up 60° in a 109 doesn't mean you're magically shielded all of a sudden. 

 

This right here should be on a label on everyone's computer desk.   Neither climbing in a plane with superior climb rate, nor diving in a good diving aircraft, is an instant get out of trouble button for you, yet so many virtual pilots interpret those actions in that manner because they have read it in many pilot accounts from actual combats.  The same is true for extending in the horizontal which pilots with faster planes will try to do as well.

 

WW2 aircraft do not change energy state like a modern F1 car.   Some lighter aircraft may have an initial advantage in a push over to the dive, or pull into a climb.  It's just the laws of physics.  And in that initial window, they are still in gun range and no matter how fast your plane, you cannot outrun a bullet.

Edited May 5, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Basic physics coupled with aircraft knowledge will lead to success in 1 v1 encounters. Know your aircraft and just as importantly know your enemy's.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Just putting your Nose up 60° in a 109 doesn't mean you're magically shielded all of a sudden. 

I fly a lot of Soviets and I see this a lot.

 

And to OP, get a wingman my friend.  Lone wolfing in any aircraft is tough business.  Regardless of flying for red or blue.  Personally, I never fly alone.

[Finkeren]

Basic physics coupled with aircraft knowledge will lead to success in 1 v1 encounters.

If there's one thing I've learned in my years on flight sim forums, it's that nothing about the physics of flying WW2 era aircraft is ever "basic".

[Wulf]

I think people don't give the Yak-1B enough credit. I personally think it's on very equal footing to the 109 F4. Faster on deck, slower at altitude, slightly better maneuverability, excellent climber...My short answer to OP would be: Fly the Yak-1B, it's a beast and will give the 109 a run for it's money. :D

Personally I'm a huge fan of the La-5, which is definitely competitive, but objectively the Yak-1B is a better plane overall.

 

Agreed.  With the exception of high altitude, and starting from a co-alt/co-energy state, I think the Yak 1-b is a good match for the F4 and probably a better proposition than an A-3 or even an A-5, unless just running away is an acceptable option. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

If there's one thing I've learned in my years on flight sim forums, it's that nothing about the physics of flying WW2 era aircraft is ever "basic".

Speed, acceleration, turn radius, energy retention, climb and dive angles etc. that coupled with the knowledge of where to use each of those benefits based on your aircrafts strengths vs your enemy's. I find the speed/altitude/climb charts really informative as to where I should engage or run from opponents in co-e situations.

[Finkeren]

With the exception of... ....starting from a co-alt/co-energy state.

When comparing fighter aircraft, we should always assume a co-energy starting point.

 

A fighter that needs to start with an energy advantage to achieve parity is an inferior fighter.

[FTC_Etherlight]

When comparing fighter aircraft, we should always assume a co-energy starting point.

 

A fighter that needs to start with an energy advantage to achieve parity is an inferior fighter.

 

Expect that it's more about co-energy at altitude. On higher altitude, the Yak-1B is at a disadvantage on co-energy. At lower altitude it's holding an advantage.

[Wulf]

When comparing fighter aircraft, we should always assume a co-energy starting point.

 

A fighter that needs to start with an energy advantage to achieve parity is an inferior fighter.

 

 

Yup, and on that basis, if combat is the only option, I would say the 190 is inferior to the Yak 1 b - as currently modeled.

 

I say as "currently modeled" because this is a game and as such the aircraft can only ever be representations (+ or -) of reality.

[Finkeren]

Yup, and on that basis, if combat is the only option, I would say the 190 is inferior to the Yak 1 b - as currently modeled.

I disagree, but it is close enough, that I'd say it's down to opinion.

 

IMHO the Fw 190A5 is currently the overall best fighter in BoX: Unmatched low level top speed, fabulous high-speed maneuverability, amazing acceleration, very easy to fly, extremely powerful armament, better survivability, great zoom climb and - let's not forget - 5-6 min at emergency power. Its only downsides are the snap stall, the relatively poor energy retention and its sub-par climb performance. That and the fact that it's a complete dog with a full fuel load.

 

Between Bf 109 F4/G2/G4, Yak-1B and Fw 190 A3/A5 I'll say it's a matter of which suits your fighting style best.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Finkeren

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A3/A5 FTW!!!

[von_Tom]

You're forgetting to factor in pilot skill apart from critiquing individuals' abilities.

 

It is a LOT easier to fly and fight in a Yak and a lot easier to make a mistake in a 109 or 190. Add to that the general skill level and pure numbers aren't everything. Factor in flaps (and yes they are used extensively) and you can turn forever. You might get hit but usually friends will appear to help out.

 

Fly a Yak like you should fly a 109 or 190 and you're sorted.

 

Von Tom

[gnomechompsky]

To me performance at a low altitude is red herring. If you are preparing to fight at low altitude you have already lost.

[Gambit21]

To me performance at a low altitude is red herring. If you are preparing to fight at low altitude you have already lost.

That was my favorite tactic while flying the Zeke in the old sim. (drag them low) But yes you're still correct in that you shouldn't count on that scenario. Low alt performance however can often be exploited, especially since what pilots should do with their energy fighters and what they actually choose to do in the moment are often two different things.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Gambit21

[BraveSirRobin]

To me performance at a low altitude is red herring. If you are preparing to fight at low altitude you have already lost.

If you are going to try to kill IL2s or bomb tactical targets you need to fly low.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Don't bring ring bologna to a dogfight.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

La5 M82F is IMO the best but I suck at this game and prefer VVS so take that with a grain of salt I am biased towards the Lavochkin as it has been a favorite of the VVS fighters for me since before I even picked up War Thunder. 

[Lusekofte]

LA 5 and 190 is really the only fighter I had some chance surviving. I think it must be the speed

[BlitzPig_EL]

The durability if air cooled engines is not to be discounted either, no glycol radiators to get punctured.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You're forgetting to factor in pilot skill apart from critiquing individuals' abilities.

 

It is a LOT easier to fly and fight in a Yak and a lot easier to make a mistake in a 109 or 190. Add to that the general skill level and pure numbers aren't everything. Factor in flaps (and yes they are used extensively) and you can turn forever. You might get hit but usually friends will appear to help out.

 

Fly a Yak like you should fly a 109 or 190 and you're sorted.

 

Von Tom

Yes and no to the German fighters. It is almost impossible to make a catastrophic error, outside of tactics, in a 109. While considerably easier to fly since the updated FM, the 190 can hurt you if you ham fist it. When I am killed in either it is almost always my fault and not the planes.

[CanadaOne]

il2 1941 with a Volkov-Yartsev VYa-23 mm cannon. As long as the 109 driver has not yet seen you and you are fast with a few hundreds meters altitude advantage

 

Wait till you can see the white of his terrified eyes: one short squeeze of the trigger and he's toast.

Beauty!

 

In the original IL2, I'd be online in an IL2M3 with the 37mm cannons, stay really low, and when conditions were right, lift my nose and take a few sniper shots at a 109. Quite the guilty satisfaction when one snapped in two for reasons never known to that poor pilot.

 

I got more than one or two like that.

[gn728]

Bookmarking this thread - and putting Finkerens' 4th passage in his first post on a T-shirt ....

[Tag777]

Considering the VVS planes we have in the game, for me the Yak-1b is the best. Still, we have to wait to test the Spit, the Yak-7b and the p-39 as well

Edited May 5, 2017 by Tag777