Oil pressure gauges

[deWaardt]

Hi all,

 

 

I've been playing this game for about half a year now, and I still can't get enough!

But one thing caught my eye. With the tech tips turned off, so you don't get messages like "First engine oil system damaged" anymore, the only way to notice an oil leak is to look behind you.

 

I always closely monitor my gauges, and this bothered me a bit. I got the tech tip "Oil system failure", and a thick black mist coming from one of my engines, but the oil pressure gauge never dropped. The oil pressured was rock-solid, even when the engine was really starting to batter out and seize up.

 

Only after the engine catastrophically failed the oil and fuel pressure gauges dropped.

 

 

 

Is the feature not possibly not yet finished? Or is oil pressure read differently?

It would be nice to have an oil pressure reading, makes troubleshooting easier and enables you to better gauge your engine's performance.

[JtD]

Oil pressure doesn't necessarily drop when you have an oil leak. As long as there's enough oil in the system to keep the pump pumping, oil pressure will be up, and as soon as oil pressure is failing when the pump sucks air, the engine is in deep trouble.

 

It might be a better idea to watch the oil temperature gauges where available, less oil means less cooling time for the oil in the circuit, and typically temperatures will rise. So there you'll have a more gradual warning.

[19//Moach]

as a fellow pressure gauge-watcher, I agree with the OP - and believe that the usability of this extremely important cockpit feature leaves much to be desired

 

ask any pilot, and he'll tell you that the very first thing you check on engine start is oil pressure - fail to do so, and you may have a hundred thousand problems fairly quick - as an engine will seize up and die a miserable death without oil pressure within less than a minute

 

in flight, this is your go-to gauge to check for impending doom - if you have doubts about your engine, this gauge is what confirms your fears or puts them at ease - it would be the real life analog of that "engine damage" icon which due to these same limitations, we cannot do away with

 

 

pressure wouldn't necessarily drop from having a leak, that's true - but it would drop once that leak finishes

 

and that it doesn't - the oil pressure in the sim remains constant, despite even major engine damage, showing "normal" all the way until your motor sputters out it's last movable parts and seizes completely...

 

never mind the subtleties we'd expect from a thoroughly detailed simulation, such as how oil pressure would decrease as temperature rises, due to how viscosity changes dramatically from a cold start up to overheat -- that gauge is purely decorative

 

 

same goes for the fuel pressure gauge - it cannot be used to warn of a fuel leak, or even of fuel depletion... in CloD (and of course, IRL) this gauge will correctly announce your imminent entry into the realm of glider flight by gradually dropping (this is well after your fuel needle has firmly bottomed) - and at a certain point, fuel pressure can only be maintained by keeping the plane very much level, as the pump starts to suck in air. the sputtering gets worse and worse, and this can be dragged on for a while, until eventually - it just runs completely dry....

 

in this sim, however, that gauge is also decorative - and fuel is kaputt at the very precise moment the tank indicator bottoms out (just like the real thing doesn't) - and indicated fuel pressure only goes down along with rpm, as the engine quits not any differently from an intentional shutdown...

 

 

so yes, engine simulation is very, very rudimentary at this stage... 

Edited May 3, 2017 by 19//Moach

[deWaardt]

Oil pressure doesn't necessarily drop when you have an oil leak. As long as there's enough oil in the system to keep the pump pumping, oil pressure will be up, and as soon as oil pressure is failing when the pump sucks air, the engine is in deep trouble.

 

It might be a better idea to watch the oil temperature gauges where available, less oil means less cooling time for the oil in the circuit, and typically temperatures will rise. So there you'll have a more gradual warning.

 

This is true, but on the note "Oil system failure", I kind of expect a complete failure of the oil system.

The engine usually lasts only minutes after this message appeared.

 

When flying my bomber/attacker, I usually can't really see which engine is leaking unless I look back and pull up.

This is the last thing I want to do when I'm being chased.

 

It would be really nice to be able to see how my engines are doing.

If I see a significant drop in oil pressure in one of them, I'll lower load on that engine to preserve it

 

as a fellow pressure gauge-watcher, I agree with the OP - and believe that the usability of this extremely important cockpit feature leaves much to be desired

 

ask any pilot, and he'll tell you that the very first thing you check on engine start is oil pressure - fail to do so, and you may have a hundred thousand problems fairly quick - as an engine will seize up and die a miserable death without oil pressure within less than a minute

 

in flight, this is your go-to gauge to check for impending doom - if you have doubts about your engine, this gauge is what confirms your fears or puts them at ease - it would be the real life analog of that "engine damage" icon which due to these same limitations, we cannot do away with

 

 

pressure wouldn't necessarily drop from having a leak, that's true - but it would drop once that leak finishes

 

and that it doesn't - the oil pressure in the sim remains constant, despite even major engine damage, showing "normal" all the way until your motor sputters out it's last movable parts and seizes completely...

 

never mind the subtleties we'd expect from a thoroughly detailed simulation, such as how oil pressure would decrease as temperature rises, due to how viscosity changes dramatically from a cold start up to overheat -- that gauge is purely decorative

 

 

same goes for the fuel pressure gauge - it cannot be used to warn of a fuel leak, or even of fuel depletion... in CloD (and of course, IRL) this gauge will correctly announce your imminent entry into the realm of glider flight by gradually dropping (this is well after your fuel needle has firmly bottomed) - and at a certain point, fuel pressure can only be maintained by keeping the plane very much level, as the pump starts to suck in air. the sputtering gets worse and worse, and this can be dragged on for a while, until eventually - it just runs completely dry....

 

in this sim, however, that gauge is also decorative - and fuel is kaputt at the very precise moment the tank indicator bottoms out (just like the real thing doesn't) - and indicated fuel pressure only goes down along with rpm, as the engine quits not any differently from an intentional shutdown...

 

 

so yes, engine simulation is very, very rudimentary at this stage... 

Yeah, I'd love to see it further worked on.

 

I'm not quite sure how well you hear inside the cockpit, but as the engine is starved of oil, the main bearings and connecting rod bearrings will start to get more and more clearance. I'm not sure if you would be able to hear it over all the other noise, but an engine ran low on oil can make significant knocking and slapping noises before finally throwing a rod. I don't know how suspectable the engines of World War II aircraft are to throwing a rod, or they simply seize without too much noise, but some sound feedback would be nice as well.

 

Right now the engine sounds fine until it starts to seize up.

[SCG_motoadve]

Oil pressure and fuel pressure are useless at this point, which it is a disappointment, considering  all the details this sim has.

As a real pilot I can tell they are very important, and you have to monitor them, specially in a combat sim.

 

Makes it kind of arcadish,  effect  of the amount of smoke is waay too much most of the time, same with fuel leak, but oil pressure gauge doesnt show anything but until the engine seizes.

 

The gauge is there for you to see that the oil pressure is right, if you have a leak or temp is rising, oil pressure should drop, then looking at it you can take measures (land at a closer airfield) .

 

For people who will defend that the oil pressure shouldnt show anything with an oil leak or oil temp rise.

Then why did the airplane manufacturer put it there?

[Yogiflight]

And in the 109s Friedrich and Gustav you don't even have the oil temperature modelled in the combined water/oil temperature gauge.

[RoteDreizehn]

yes absolutely this is a very important thing as we use a 12 Zylinder Piston Engine and not a little lawnmower engine .

 

For me I cant understand why they arent modelling this. In my opinon it cant be difficult to implement, as they must do

simple calculation´s. If the Enemy hit the cell (DM Value) where the oil System located, they add an counter value with

sleeps to simulate the Oil lose. Then update the object attribute this.oilgauge in an Intervall by a thread which will be

used by the Oil gauge.

 

@yogiflight:

thats true but you also can do this math without an extra oiltemp value. Trivial: If oil gauge went down, the temp gauge moves up.

 

 

Oil pressure and fuel pressure are useless at this point, which it is a disappointment, considering  all the details this sim has.

As a real pilot I can tell they are very important, and you have to monitor them, specially in a combat sim.

 

Makes it kind of arcadish,  effect  of the amount of smoke is waay too much most of the time, same with fuel leak, but oil pressure gauge doesnt show anything but until the engine seizes.

 

The gauge is there for you to see that the oil pressure is right, if you have a leak or temp is rising, oil pressure should drop, then looking at it you can take measures (land at a closer airfield) .

 

For people who will defend that the oil pressure shouldnt show anything with an oil leak or oil temp rise.

Then why did the airplane manufacturer put it there?

[deWaardt]

yes absolutely this is a very important thing as we use a 12 Zylinder Piston Engine and not a little lawnmower engine .

 

For me I cant understand why they arent modelling this. In my opinon it cant be difficult to implement, as they must do

simple calculation´s. If the Enemy hit the cell (DM Value) where the oil System located, they add an counter value with

sleeps to simulate the Oil lose. Then update the object attribute this.oilgauge in an Intervall by a thread which will be

used by the Oil gauge.

 

@yogiflight:

thats true but you also can do this math without an extra oiltemp value. Trivial: If oil gauge went down, the temp gauge moves up.

 

The oil temperature gauge doesn't move up when the oil pressure is dropping.

I've had dozens of engines that went due to an oil leak, oil temperature stays fine all the way until seizeup.

[19//Moach]

The oil temperature gauge doesn't move up when the oil pressure is dropping.

I've had dozens of engines that went due to an oil leak, oil temperature stays fine all the way until seizeup.

 

which is itself, the problem being discussed here, isn't it?

 

seems oil temps and pressures are really not connected at all in the current state of this sim, so it is basically impossible to do away with the unrealistic encumbrance of "technochat" and still maintain an authentic degree of engine awareness from the cockpit

 

I hope this gets improved sooner, rather than later.... a drop in oil pressure is the number one sign a pilot is trained to look for when suspecting engine troubles - but that gauge will lie to you, so one must rely on the arcade-ish damage icon instead, unfortunately

 

 

anyways, it is possible that with an oil leak, pressure wouldn't necessarily drop - a leak between the sump, reservoir and pump, for instance, would not affect indicated pressure right up until there's not enough oil left to sustain it, and the pump starts sucking up air - at which point, you're less than a minute away from unpowered flight.. see:

 

 

a leak anywhere on the brown-marked part of the system, i.e. the "low pressure" areas, would not immediately show a drop on the indicator -- however, the smaller amount of oil in circulation could very possibly cause temperatures to rise - and from that, pressure would drop - as hot oil is less viscous, and can become too thin to effectively prevent metal on metal contact within the engine if left unchecked (which is why you have an oil cooler in the first place)

 

 

but in most cases, a leak from damage anywhere else in the blue marked parts of the system or on the engine itself, such as a blown gasket, would definitely cause a rapid and clearly indicated drop in pressure, as the oil flows out more easily and offers less resistance to the pump --  this is the main point in which the simulation is lacking. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by 19//Moach

[SCG_motoadve]

Good explanation and totally agree, it should be modeled soon, will add realism.

BOS has great flight models and lots of attention to improve them constantly.

Why this important aspect has been left behind?

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Even more important for us VR pilots flying with no HUD. No technochat has been awesome, but its lacking oil pressure gauges to help indicate early engine fault.

[Guest deleted@30725]

Even more important for us VR pilots flying with no HUD. No technochat has been awesome, but its lacking oil pressure gauges to help indicate early engine fault.

 

Already doing this without vr.

[SAG]

i agree that these (fuel and oil pressure) gauges should at a lot to the realism. i love flying without icons at all and this is one of the things that could be considered an unadvantage

[RoteDreizehn]

@de Waardt

 

>> Trivial: If oil gauge went down, the temp gauge moves up

 

sure - you are absolutley right. This was only an example with a very simple level of detail. They told us this should be a slightly hard core Sim. 

As I understand Jason in the various past posts, there are too many other things at the same time, which they have to simulate (threading). 

Dont want to describe the Motor Behaivour of DB601 E or DB 605 A if you loose Oil Pressure.

 

@19//Moach

Thanks for the good explaination

 

 

The oil temperature gauge doesn't move up when the oil pressure is dropping.

I've had dozens of engines that went due to an oil leak, oil temperature stays fine all the way until seizeup.

[RoteDreizehn]

here is a link where you can watch the fuel and oil pressure gauges. Maybe the dev take a look on it

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR8SOB1Fmbg

Edited May 8, 2017 by RoteDreizehn

[Bearfoot]

Responsive oil pressure, fuel pressure, and (in 109 F/G) oil temperature gauges modeled to reflect systems operation and damage is something that would really be useful to have.

[TG-55Panthercules]

Responsive oil pressure, fuel pressure, and (in 109 F/G) oil temperature gauges modeled to reflect systems operation and damage is something that would really be useful to have.

 

 

Agreed!  I can't stand to play with the technochat or other HUD-clutter on (just completely breaks the immersion for me), so if the cockpit doesn't have working gauges that are able to provide the necessary info then it makes it virtually impossible (or at least a lot less fun) to fly that particular plane well (sure, I can try to figure out some basic "safe" settings that usually won't toast my engines and just pretend the gauges are broken from battle damage, sabotage or mechanical failure, but it's so much better to just be able to rely on working and correctly-modelled gauges).

Edited May 9, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[Bearfoot]

Agreed!  I can't stand to play with the technochat or other HUD-clutter on (just completely breaks the immersion for me), so if the cockpit doesn't have working gauges that are able to provide the necessary info then it makes it virtually impossible (or at least a lot less fun) to fly that particular plane well (sure, I can try to figure out some basic "safe" settings that usually won't toast my engines and just pretend the gauges are broken from battle damage, sabotage or mechanical failure, but it's so much better to just be able to rely on working and correctly-modelled gauges).

 

Yep! And definitely required in something that prides itself as being more "sim-like" than "game-like". The HUD etc. is fine for those who want it, but the opportunity should be available for folks who want to get closer to the other side of the spectrum!

[Jack59]

Just a quick note to raise my hand and say that I, too, would highly welcome enhanced functionality of these gauges. I fly only using the panel instruments and gauges, as the HUD is an immersion killer for me. (And I only fly VR, so the HUD would also hit my PC performance). I am partial to the Soviet aircraft because I welcome the additional engine management, and working gauges would certainly enhance this experience.

 

I have no idea how difficult it would be to implement something, but have to say that I would still be delighted even if it was something that was shy of a DCS or A2A simulation level of detail. The code currently has triggers for black smoke and fuel leakage; maybe these same triggers could somehow result in feedback on the gauges?

[Quax]

Oil pressure doesn't necessarily drop when you have an oil leak. As long as there's enough oil in the system to keep the pump pumping, oil pressure will be up, and as soon as oil pressure is failing when the pump sucks air, the engine is in deep trouble.

 

It might be a better idea to watch the oil temperature gauges where available, less oil means less cooling time for the oil in the circuit, and typically temperatures will rise. So there you'll have a more gradual warning.

 

This

 

 

PS: We did have this in RL. 34 of 40 liters of oil were gone, before the oil pressure did fall to 0 within a few seconds. Engine would have failed within the next minute. Field was in gliding range.

      The temperatur of the oil is going up with less oil in the system, but this might be too little to recognize. Other changes (speed, powersetting, oil cooler setting) can have a stronger effect. I doubt, that this would 

      help as an early indication. It hasn´t been recognized in the oil loss event above.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Quax

[RoteDreizehn]

>>PS: We did have this in RL. 34 of 40 liters of oil were gone, before the oil pressure did fall to 0 within a few seconds. Engine would have failed within the next minute. Field was in gliding range.

>>      The temperatur of the oil is going up with less oil in the system, but this might be too little to recognize. Other changes (speed, powersetting, oil cooler setting) can have a stronger effect. I doubt, that this would 

>>      help as an early indication. It hasn´t been recognized in the oil loss event above.

 

thats true, but it depends on which part off oil circulation you hit. In these days you cant compare it with an RL issue. 

 

If you hit the oil pipe the pressure can be less than normal, but this cant be simulate :-)

 

This

 

 

PS: We did have this in RL. 34 of 40 liters of oil were gone, before the oil pressure did fall to 0 within a few seconds. Engine would have failed within the next minute. Field was in gliding range.

      The temperatur of the oil is going up with less oil in the system, but this might be too little to recognize. Other changes (speed, powersetting, oil cooler setting) can have a stronger effect. I doubt, that this would 

      help as an early indication. It hasn´t been recognized in the oil loss event above.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

going by that video many gauges and things in game might need tweaking...

but thats also a 109 G12? maybe thats the differences.

Re:
Inertial starter flywheel took a good 25 seconds to spool ingame is only about 8-10 (this really needs adjusting if its same for F2,F2,and so on)

Prop Pitch indicator was not spinning around like in game when he moved throttle

[19//Moach]

going by that video many gauges and things in game might need tweaking...

 

but thats also a 109 G12? maybe thats the differences.

 

Re:

Inertial starter flywheel took a good 25 seconds to spool ingame is only about 8-10 (this really needs adjusting if its same for F2,F2,and so on)

 

Prop Pitch indicator was not spinning around like in game when he moved throttle

 

 

the prop gauge wouldn't move if he had the prop set to manual control (which he apparently did, as it appears in a different position at a later shot)

 

it makes sense to fly a restored vintage bird on manual prop mode, that way one can ensure no unnecessary strain is put on that precious engine by running it with automatic settings that were intended for combat...

 

 

many videos of restored warbirds show the pilot running lower revs and using only as little power as he can, since those things are not exactly coming off assembly lines anymore

 

 

 

as for the pressure and temperature gauges - what you see in the video is the correct behavior- this is most unlike seen ingame, where pressure gauges remain mainly decorative...

 

the temperature gauges do serve to warn about overheating/overcooling as expected, except that you also don't encounter such conditions where real pilots would have  -  in all planes, cooling is unhistorically effective when stationary, and you can overcool by idling even in summer weather,with the rads more than half-way closed  

 

in reality one could expect overheat within minutes of ground idle even with rads fully open

 

 

also, it seems that temperatures are only superficially linked to engine damage (and pressure seems completely unrelated) - that means you cannot trust those gauges at all to warn you of imminent engine failure from overrunning the extremely arcade-ish timer based implementation of operating limits

 

it all seems to imply one very uncomfortable fact -- there is basically NO engine simulation going on - the gauges merely act their part (more or less) as the engine decides whether to self-destroy rather arbitrarily, in a very rudimentary, albeit not fully deterministic, caricature of engine behavior

 

so it cannot be said that this game simulates engines at all at this stage of its development, for it merely parodies operation limits by superficially enforcing (rather extreme) consequences according to rated specifications (mind that rated limits do not necessarily mean the maximum physical capabilities of any engine)

 

 

thus, what we have so far, is analogous to "simulating" a person afflicted with a cold by way of having him sneeze in loosely timed intervals, with no account for even a generalized state of his health

 

 

 

 

hopefully one day a more realistic implementation of engine running conditions actually gets implemented...

 

 not necessarily a very complex, engineering-grade simulation really - but any solution that would effectively reproduce causes, effects and indications of the state of one's engine in a way that generally agrees with real behavior would go a tremendously long way

 

 

i.e. we're not asking for a simulation of every stroke of every piston... just a more organic model of the major operating parameters to a reasonable representation of engine conditions - it doesn't have to be scientifically perfect, just close enough that the approximation compromises aren't blatantly obvious

 

that means:  set up a simple model that factors the effect of pressures, temperatures and whatnot with a given set of model-specific constants and some basic fuzzy logic - and we can happily call that an engine simulation

 

 

because what we have now is simply not even a basic simulator grade implementation of an engine - it's arcade-level mimicry with cartoon results 

 

 

 

here's hoping this gets taken more seriously soon....

Edited May 24, 2017 by 19//Moach

[SCG_motoadve]

Seems like most flight simmers in the BOS community are more interested in the flight modeling than airplane systems modeling, they keep demanding corrections and the developers listen.

 

Hope they listen to us too to improve the instruments systems modeling .

[19//Moach]

Seems like most flight simmers in the BOS community are more interested in the flight modeling than airplane systems modeling, they keep demanding corrections and the developers listen.

 

Hope they listen to us too to improve the instruments systems modeling .

 

 

I would say both are equally important - a good simulation must have decent modelling of the aircraft on the outside as much as on the inside... any disparity of priorities across the two would be analogous to having the 3d modelers focus more on either the internal or external models...

 

it's weird, those two are quite well balanced in artwork - but simulation wise, the stuff inside the plane is far behind the stuff "outside"

 

the current state is metaphorically like that of the game only having world and exterior plane models done, and basically no cockpits... 

 

 

if that makes sense.... (hopefully I didn't stretch the analogy past the point at which it breaks   )

Edited May 24, 2017 by 19//Moach