Checking six in VR

[TP_Silk]

It has also been frequently commented on by my squadron mates that this gives rise to the "VR Groan" on voice comms when someone's straining to look around in the cockpit.

[LLv34_Temuri]

It has also been frequently commented on by my squadron mates that this gives rise to the "VR Groan" on voice comms when someone's straining to look around in the cockpit.

Voice activation? Tell them to use Push-to-Talk

[A_radek]

For what it's worth I posted a suggestion for an increase in VR-zoomability in the suggestions forum.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31501-vr-zoom-zoom-factor-and-multiplayer/

[TP_Silk]

Voice activation? Tell them to use Push-to-Talk

 

Oh we do use PTT - I'm on about hearing it in the players voice when they're trying to talk and look around at the same time. It's actually quite comical as they sound out of breath. I suspect that i't also quite realistic.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Yep, the strained, contorted voice as we try to crane our necks and body's to get a glimpse of something.

[Lensman]

TiR and VR are extreme ends of the same stick.  On one hand TiR allows you to check six far to easily with a little movement and VR on the other, is artificially restricted to well below real life.  If you don't have VR, cup your hands around your eyes as if they were a scuba mask, then look behind you by using head and eye movement only.  That is a very serious restriction compared to real life, where you can use your peripheral vision, head and eye movement to relatively easily look behind you.

 

To claim VR is a more realistic experience than TiR in relation to checking six wrong.  Both are quite removed from reality in this regard.

Alternatively, sit in a car driver's seat, connect the seatbelt and now try to look directly behind you (I'm doing it right now). The VR view is ACCURATE.

[OrLoK]

Alternatively, sit in a car driver's seat, connect the seatbelt and now try to look directly behind you (I'm doing it right now). The VR view is ACCURATE.

drive safe!

[chiliwili69]

 

 

chiliwili69, on 01 May 2017 - 16:20, said:     Until then, I prefer to not use a swivel chair to compensate that (just my choice). Since I am only SP I don´t need to be very competitive, I am able to just have fun without competition. (and will be probably too bad in MP)     Out of topic. But chili, if you can land, taxi, take off and manage your engine, your more than good to go. Join me for a session on teamspeak/taw and you'll be surprised what it's all about.   

 

Thank you radek for you gently offer, but this is a door I don´t want to open yet. It could be too addictive and time is scarce.

[ICDP]

Alternatively, sit in a car driver's seat, connect the seatbelt and now try to look directly behind you (I'm doing it right now). The VR view is ACCURATE.

 

Lol, are you in a van with no rear windows.  I can check my blind sides will driving quite easily and the VR view is nowhere near accurate.  Your normal peripheral vision is ~220 degrees without moving your head at all.  While it is true some aircraft had an armoured wall behind the pilot restricting view, others had a very good rear view that the pilot could take advantage off by moving your eyes and use of peripheral vision, strapped in or not.  Even with excluding the rear view it should be possible to see the wing tips (or close to it) in your peripheral view from a cockpit.  VR with 110 FOV makes this impossible and as such unrealistic.  Move your eyes towards the peripheral in a Rift or Vive and all you get is black plastic.

 

With Rift CV1 a restricted FOV of 110 degree is NOT realistic, not matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.

Edited October 8, 2017 by ICDP

[dburne]

 

 

With Rift CV1 a restricted FOV of 110 degree is NOT realistic, not matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.

 

I can tell you just speaking for myself and my experience having used the Rift since Jan 15th, it is way more realistic than that small image on a monitor looking around all the way behind me and beyond with a Track IR.

 

Everyone's experience with current gen VR can be different. For some, the resolution is the issue. For others, the id'ing of targets. Yet others the FOV. For some like myself, all of those are minor compared to the overall experience. And for some they are too great an issue for the user to be able to enjoy VR.

 

It is really kind of silly having some of these debates on the pros and cons of VR, as in the end it is the individual's preference on whether they are going to enjoy VR or not.

But one thing I am sure we can all agree on, is looking forward to what that next generation of VR device brings us.

[ICDP]

Apologies for not being very clear but at no point was I stating TIR is in any way more accurate than VR in my post.  I was merely responding to Lensman's claim that "The VR view is ACCURATE".  The accurate bit is even in full caps for emphasis.  Like I said previously, TIR and VR are extreme ends of our pilot visibility problem.  TIR gives us the ability to look around our virtual world in a much less restrictive fashion than reality.  VR artificially restricts our ability to look around compared to reality.  Both are ultimately unrealistic for opposite reasons.

 

Subjective

VR is better than TIR.

TIR is better than VR.

 

Factual and in no way subjective

Human FOV is ~200 degree (obviously less with pilot goggles), by the very fact you are artificially restricted to 110 degree FOV in VR makes it the antithesis of accurate in that regard.

 

Sorry if this post comes across as rude, that is not my intention but I feel it is important that we do not present opinion as fact.  110 degree is significantly less than actual human FOV (even with pilot goggles).

 

Post edited to include pilot goggles caveat.

Edited October 8, 2017 by ICDP

[BlznSaddles]

Yeah, it's not a realistic FOV if you are thinking of a pilot not wearing any goggles or helmet... I'm not saying it matches the FOV of WWII era flying goggles, but the point is that WWII pilots did not have an unrestricted view of everything either.  

[ICDP]

Yeah, it's not a realistic FOV if you are thinking of a pilot not wearing any goggles or helmet... I'm not saying it matches the FOV of WWII era flying goggles, but the point is that WWII pilots did not have an unrestricted view of everything either.  

 

I agree, they didn't have an unrestricted view.  But most pilot goggles and helmets used in WWII do not restrict a pilots field of view as significantly as the 110 degree FOV in a VR HMD does.  Pilot goggles also wrap around the head, so even if they look very narrow FOV, they are superior to 110 degree in a VR HMD.

Edited October 8, 2017 by ICDP

[Cpt_Siddy]

VR is better because mind altering substances and high speed dives. 

 

But the check 6 struggle is real. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Checking six is easier in VR than IRL. I tried saturday, the belts held my thorax in place. 

 

Ease of checking six:

 

TiR >> VR >> RL. 

[US103_Baer]

Am glad there's a discussion on this.

 

I was horrified when i tried checking six with a friend's VR. Way too hard on my back and neck.

I'm 54 not 24, or whatever the avg pilot age was. So realism arguments stop right there i reckon

 

Its a show-stopper and until some sort of increase in movement/view angle ratio is available i probably won't invest in the gear and good enough system to run it.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Am glad there's a discussion on this.

 

I was horrified when i tried checking six with a friend's VR. Way too hard on my back and neck.

I'm 54 not 24, or whatever the avg pilot age was. So realism arguments stop right there i reckon

 

Its a show-stopper and until some sort of increase in movement/view angle ratio is available i probably won't invest in the gear and good enough system to run it.

 

Trust me, we young whipper snappers feel the same way about checking 6.

 

And there is a reason for some fighters having mirrors, even the 109's had attempts to install mirrors. And then there was other "tail warning" systems. The struggle of 6 cheeking  are real to this day. 

[HunDread]

Am glad there's a discussion on this.

 

I was horrified when i tried checking six with a friend's VR. Way too hard on my back and neck.

I'm 54 not 24, or whatever the avg pilot age was. So realism arguments stop right there i reckon

 

Its a show-stopper and until some sort of increase in movement/view angle ratio is available i probably won't invest in the gear and good enough system to run it.

 

This shouldn't be a showstopper if you are interested in VR. A swivel chair gets the job done great.

[dburne]

Hey I have no shame, I fly SP with custom settings so can use external views on occasion when I get a sense of something. Most often I just work on my situational awareness along with flying style to keep my six clean.

 

If you don't see them until they are on your six, going to be a problem.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I'm having plenty of fun just flying 2-seaters in VR - can't really see much behind you in those things anyway, and there's a gunner back there to spot for you, so the limitations of checking 6 with VR are less significant.  (and, with my swivel chair, I can do a decent enough job of checking 6 on the few occasions where I fly a single-seater.)

[US103_Baer]

Ok, thanks for the suggestions. Will try that out next chance I get

[HagarTheHorrible]

Apologies for not being very clear but at no point was I stating TIR is in any way more accurate than VR in my post.  I was merely responding to Lensman's claim that "The VR view is ACCURATE".  The accurate bit is even in full caps for emphasis.  Like I said previously, TIR and VR are extreme ends of our pilot visibility problem.  TIR gives us the ability to look around our virtual world in a much less restrictive fashion than reality.  VR artificially restricts our ability to look around compared to reality.  Both are ultimately unrealistic for opposite reasons.

 

Subjective

VR is better than TIR.

TIR is better than VR.

 

Factual and in no way subjective

Human FOV is ~200 degree (obviously less with pilot goggles), by the very fact you are artificially restricted to 110 degree FOV in VR makes it the antithesis of accurate in that regard.

 

Sorry if this post comes across as rude, that is not my intention but I feel it is important that we do not present opinion as fact.  110 degree is significantly less than actual human FOV (even with pilot goggles).

 

Post edited to include pilot goggles caveat.

I don't disagree with your general point about FOV but it does miss one important fact. The further you get from the direction you're looking in the less you see, or at the least you see, or notice, things in a different way. I appreciate that is a big oversimplification but just because you can see in a wide arc doesn't mean that opponents can't go un-noticed within that FOV depending on light and movement. A limitation of monitors and TrackIR is that vision is sharp and perfect through about 400 deg of vision allowing very few places for opponents to hide). This is a boon for lone Eagles , greatly increasing their survivability, especially if you are a good player to start with, but on the flip side is very limiting for less able pilots who might otherwise capitalize from better pilots occasional mistakes or tardiness .

[fiddlinjim]

I've been using the highest mirror option with my VR and flying the Spit and YAK-1b online and off and unless the attacker is directly behind and on the same level, he just isn't visible.    Even with my swivel chair and the YAKs full cockpit canopy a rear look see isn't very easy. 

I depend more on not flying straight and level for long with hopefully the first volley of enemy tracers missing my plane and then making a hard break into an attacker, unfortunately this doesn't always work too well.    Some of the multiplayer pilots are really good and that first volley is dead on.

The one you don't see is the one that gets you.

[Dave]

Since adopting VR myself I can't wait for the day that everyone flies in VR and the owls disappear.

I find checking 6 in VR to be harder than in reality. This is because in reality I would grab the handrail to help twist around. Can't do this in VR and the tether keeps getting caught on the back of my chair. I'm sure I can resolve these issues but that is how it is for me at the moment.

 

Lone wolfing has never been more unappealing for me than since moving to VR due to this and to difficulty in spotting and identifying contacts before I am already too close to disengage. But I won't be going back to my monitors. I prefer to fly as part of an element or flight anyway. If only more people in my timezone felt the same.

 

While we are discussing realism, VR and voluntarily trading advantage for immersion - I wish servers could and would disable zoom.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Dave

[Dave]

Lol, are you in a van with no rear windows.  I can check my blind sides will driving quite easily and the VR view is nowhere near accurate.  Your normal peripheral vision is ~220 degrees without moving your head at all.  While it is true some aircraft had an armoured wall behind the pilot restricting view, others had a very good rear view that the pilot could take advantage off by moving your eyes and use of peripheral vision, strapped in or not.  Even with excluding the rear view it should be possible to see the wing tips (or close to it) in your peripheral view from a cockpit.  VR with 110 FOV makes this impossible and as such unrealistic.  Move your eyes towards the peripheral in a Rift or Vive and all you get is black plastic.

 

With Rift CV1 a restricted FOV of 110 degree is NOT realistic, not matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.

I have to agree with this. Not only is the view through CV1 reminiscent of an old-school scuba mask, even the 110 degrees you have is not wholly usable. The optics are optimised to improve clarity in the central region of the view and the peripheries are quite blurry. Sure, in reality only the fovea is clear anyway but when your eyes move the foveal region moves too - not so with VR. It is certainly good enough to use right now but I am really looking forward to next-gen HMDs that address these issues.

The current limitations negate some of the visibility edge aircraft like the Spit, Yak1b and P40 have over the 109 - but then so does TrackIR. If you ever get the chance to sit in a 109 just try and check 6. Spoiler - you can't - or at least couldn't reasonably in a dogfight. So part of the price for the 109's performance is never really paid by virtual pilots.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Dave

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Dave, you might want to come to Sherrif's Discord channel, and even if no-one is in a channel at the time, just enter one and hang around while flying. There are usually people who'll join quickly, other VR pilots as well! It's really worthwhile, the benefit of flying together and also having a laugh is priceless!

[Dave]

Thanks Fenris. I already fly with friends on Official TS.