Checking six in VR

[chiliwili69]

Since VR implementation there are tons of posts about this new tech, and a recurring topic is about checking six.

 

IMHO, I think that VR has put the "checking six" were it should be: Very difficult.

 

VR is as natural as real life, as far as your body and head respect the limits of the plane and chair. Trying to mimic the same position for the handles (chair, stick, throttle, pedals, etc). Ideally all of us would wish a full physical replica of the plane cockpit.

 

Three years ago, since I knew the BOS VR implementation was promised and really saw that VR tech was arriving to stay, I decided to invest in chair/Hotas/pedals (something I would never do without VR) and negotiate with my wife a small space for this hobby.

 

These are the pictures:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2042-selling-thrustmaster-warthog-extensions/?p=82354

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4226-slaw-rudder-pedals-pictures/?p=88178

 

Because of current state of VR tech (limited FOV), checking six is a bit more difficult than in real life, but future VR tech will improve that. But in the other hand, real life pilots use belts which limits their body movement.

 

Until then, I prefer to not use a swivel chair to compensate that (just my choice). Since I am only SP I don´t need to be very competitive, I am able to just have fun without competition. (and will be probably too bad in MP)

 

IMHO, (don´t  be offended the swivel chair or TrackIR users), fixed chairs (or limited TrackIR angles for no-VR users) give you the same limitations that WW2 pilots were exposed inside the plane.

 

As the last DD said, rear view mirrors will be implemented and this will alleviate the checking six difficulties.

[OrLoK]

Agreed. Track ir feels like cheating now

[dburne]

Agree as well.

For more years than I care to remember, we flight simmers have pushed for " as real as it can get".

We want the plane to behave like the real thing it is replicating, we want the weather to behave like the real thing, we want the skins to reflect what the real thing had, we want the engines to behave like the real ones did, and so on.

 

I always crack a grin and shake my head a little when I see a comment from someone regarding VR, as to whether one can use snap views or somehow get their Track IR to work with it to allow the actual movement in the display to be greater than one's actual head movement.

I myself don't want anything to take away from this incredible immersion I am getting from flying in VR. Have waited quite a long time for this to finally arrive.

Edited May 1, 2017 by dburne

[HagarTheHorrible]

I hate to confess, but last night, flying online (no icons) I did use the recentering trick to comfortably check six while trucking through the combat zone. My excuses are age (not on my side) restricted FOV and low resolution. It wouldn't be so useful in combat but flying patrols rather than heading for the first furball it's far less taxing and not an unreasonable compromise.

[OrLoK]

We wont tell anyone.

[Nibbio]

OP cool setup. Mine is similar but built with cheap IKEA stuff. 

 

Checking six is overrated anyway. And real men never check six.

 

If you are so unfortunate to get someone on your tail he's very likely going to kill you anyway. It's not that by looking at him you can pull off some improbable top gun maneuver to reverse the situation, unless he's a real noob. You see tracers streaming by your cockpit, evade. Dive for the deck, spilt-s, make his life difficult. Maybe someone will come to your aid or the bandit will lose sight of you. Most likely you are toast, but at least he's going to expend all his ammo to get you.

 

Multiplayer is fun in VR, even berloga. You just fly fast and concentrate aggressively on what's in front of you, forget what maybe lurking behind. Focus on giving at least as much lead as you take

[Wolf8312]

Yeah I avoided MP but trust me in VR its an artful dance of death!

 

Wonderful feeling when you shoot someone down, and unlike with track IR its basically a 1-1 simulation of a real dogfight so you really do get the genuine experience!

[Thad]

 

Since VR implementation there are tons of posts about this new tech, and a recurring topic is about checking six.

 

IMHO, I think that VR has put the "checking six" were it should be: Very difficult.

 

VR is as natural as real life, as far as your body and head respect the limits of the plane and chair. Trying to mimic the same position for the handles (chair, stick, throttle, pedals, etc). Ideally all of us would wish a full physical replica of the plane cockpit.

 

Three years ago, since I knew the BOS VR implementation was promised and really saw that VR tech was arriving to stay, I decided to invest in chair/Hotas/pedals (something I would never do without VR) and negotiate with my wife a small space for this hobby.

 

These are the pictures:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2042-selling-thrustmaster-warthog-extensions/?p=82354

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4226-slaw-rudder-pedals-pictures/?p=88178

 

Because of current state of VR tech (limited FOV), checking six is a bit more difficult than in real life, but future VR tech will improve that. But in the other hand, real life pilots use belts which limits their body movement.

 

Until then, I prefer to not use a swivel chair to compensate that (just my choice). Since I am only SP I don´t need to be very competitive, I am able to just have fun without competition. (and will be probably too bad in MP)

 

IMHO, (don´t  be offended the swivel chair or TrackIR users), fixed chairs (or limited TrackIR angles for no-VR users) give you the same limitations that WW2 pilots were exposed inside the plane.

 

As the last DD said, rear view mirrors will be implemented and this will alleviate the checking six difficulties.

 

Salutations,

 

Please don't be concerned about offending me. I think this overall "I'm offended by what you said" culture is stupid. If my stated opinion offends you.... tough. Get over it and live your life.

 

Actually, for that matter, I find all the 'offence taking' truly offensive. Oh well, life goes on.

[[CPT]Crunch]

I hate to confess, but last night, flying online (no icons) I did use the recentering trick to comfortably check six while trucking through the combat zone. My excuses are age (not on my side) restricted FOV and low resolution. It wouldn't be so useful in combat but flying patrols rather than heading for the first furball it's far less taxing and not an unreasonable compromise.

That's a great tip, no way I can see beyond the rear of my wing, bad back, won't allow me to physically twist that far.  Don't care to see my tail, but I'd like to see to 4 and 8, but the oc cuts that peripheral off.  I'd rather not use a swivel chair, love those rudders too much.  Thanks for a solution, so simple.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Agreed. I watch prominent YouTubers and their BoX videos regularly (Sheriff, Darbzy, Invictus etc) all of them excellent content creators. But after moving from a TrackIR on a 55" screen to VR I always chuckle when I see them doing views that in real world would require removing the lap belts and shoulder harnesses completely and opening the canopy and half way standing up.

 

I had a very aggressive tir profile, it was setup specifically to "game the game" in terms of views. Since I'm 90% a MP player, it was all about leveling the playing field.

 

Now that half of my group of friends are VR we've had to adopt new ways of dealing with the much more realistic view limitations placed on us.

 

Combat spread, co alt, no closer than a turn diameter from each other. We hold a 3/9 line. Mutual support is the only way to overcome the rearward blind spot. But it relies on your wing, flight or element doing it's job or it all falls to hell in mere seconds.

 

When it does work, it's much more thrilling knowing you don't really need "owl view" to win, or atleast have fun.

 

[ICDP]

TiR and VR are extreme ends of the same stick.  On one hand TiR allows you to check six far to easily with a little movement and VR on the other, is artificially restricted to well below real life.  If you don't have VR, cup your hands around your eyes as if they were a scuba mask, then look behind you by using head and eye movement only.  That is a very serious restriction compared to real life, where you can use your peripheral vision, head and eye movement to relatively easily look behind you.

 

To claim VR is a more realistic experience than TiR in relation to checking six wrong.  Both are quite removed from reality in this regard.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ICDP

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Agreed. It's a game. We all game it.

 

Game on!

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I will say being strapped in a Marchetti you can eye wiggle and head wiggle all you want, you're not looking behind you worth a damn.

[BlznSaddles]

I have been thinking about this exact issue.  My Oculus setup involves a car racing seat mounted down low inside a framed 2x4 platform, very low seating position similar to a 109.  It is hard to torque all the way around to accurately check 6.  Yes, the FOV is too low in VR currently but on the other hand real pilots were probably wearing some kind of headgear and definitely were strapped in, restricting movement to some extent.  Hard to know what is "accurate" but it's something I didn't really think much about until going to this VR setup.  I think it is telling that late-war fighters were beginning to be equipped with rear-looking "blind spot" radar though.  I suppose it is a disadvantage over TrackIR or a wheely chair or POV Hat but I like the feeling of being in the plane so I'll make due with the restrictions that entails.

[OrLoK]

I just pretend im wearing these.

 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I have been thinking about this exact issue.  My Oculus setup involves a car racing seat mounted down low inside a framed 2x4 platform, very low seating position similar to a 109.  It is hard to torque all the way around to accurately check 6.  Yes, the FOV is too low in VR currently but on the other hand real pilots were probably wearing some kind of headgear and definitely were strapped in, restricting movement to some extent.  Hard to know what is "accurate" but it's something I didn't really think much about until going to this VR setup.  I think it is telling that late-war fighters were beginning to be equipped with rear-looking "blind spot" radar though.  I suppose it is a disadvantage over TrackIR or a wheely chair or POV Hat but I like the feeling of being in the plane so I'll make due with the restrictions that entails.

 

P38 tail warning system .

[BlznSaddles]

P38 tail warning system .

 

yes and I believe I read somewhere the F8F Bearcat had it as well (maybe only on some subtypes?)

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I've heard and read the 38s tail system was removed after a short time, drive it's drivers crazy.

[Nibbio]

I finally gave up my comfortable easy chair and got this, minus the caster wheels.

 

Excellent for checking 6 in VR, just turn 60 degrees left or right and turn your neck and shoulders the remaining 30 degrees.

Absence of caster wheels also allows easy use of rudder pedals.

 

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S39177644/

[ICDP]

I just pretend im wearing these.

 

 

As you can see the side vision is not nearly as restricted.  Pilot goggles were/are wrap around.  I think some compromise is the key, TiR it's far to easy to check 6, in current VR it too restrictive.  IMHO coupled with low res it puts you at a serious disadvantage unless you have icons enabled.

 

I'm looking forward to my Pimax 8k VR with 200 degree FoV.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

As you can see the side vision is not nearly as restricted.  Pilot goggles were/are wrap around.  I think some compromise is the key, TiR it's far to easy to check 6, in current VR it too restrictive.  IMHO coupled with low res it puts you at a serious disadvantage unless you have icons enabled.

 

I'm looking forward to my Pimax 8k VR with 200 degree FoV.

I actually rather like it. If me and my wingy can wade into 2 or 3 guys in MP, wack 2 of them and then gain separation knowing they are probably tir users, it makes it all the sweeter.

[chiliwili69]

When flying gliders many years ago, where the cockpit has a great visibility, I remember it was almost impossible to check six due to the fasten belts and limitation of the cockpit glass. In that case nobody was firing behind me so, not need to do it.

 

 

I really would love to go to an air museum or air festival where I could sit in a 2nd WW plane, fasten the belts, and put similar kind of goggles to really know how limited they were with their rear vision. But I think it will not be too far from the current un-belt chair and Rift I use now.

 

I prefer to feel the "fear" of being surprised by some bullets around me like they were surprised too. 

 

Most likely with the Pimax I will need to install some belts then. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by chiliwili69

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I like the apprehension and suspense also.

[ICDP]

Let's not start confusing subjective personal preference with reality guys.  There are plenty of accounts from pilots of various WWII fighters who claimed the view form the rear was either great or poor.

 

RAE tests on a captured Fw190 stated that the rear view was so good it did not need a mirror.  What they didn't say was "sure it doesn't matter because when we are strapped in we can't see behind us anyway".  Obviously, other types had poor rear visibility, hence the need for mirrors and the introduction of bubble canopies etc.  Regardless, this does not remove from the fact the FoV from current VR HMDs is unrealistically restrictive.  It's one thing for example stating the Spitfire Mk Vb rear view was poor, so I don't feel it is as unrealistic in VR.  The same  cannot be said in other aircraft such as an Fw190, or a Yak 1b because the unrealistically low FoV removes the advantages those fighter had with rear visibility.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ICDP

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

CptJackSparrow' timestamp='1506516987' post='515329'] "owl view"

 

Great term for it.

 

I've posted a number of times about this but I feel 'owl view' reduces the ability to successfully sneak up on opponents in game. They also rarely even need to kick in some rudder to see you positioned in what 'should' be a blind spot on their 6.

 

 

 

To claim VR is a more realistic experience than TiR in relation to checking six wrong.  Both are quite removed from reality in this regard.

 

To claim that both are equally removed from reality would also be wrong. The physical effort required to check 6 and the view limitations in VR are significantly closer to 'reality' than owl view.

[dburne]

 

To claim that both are equally removed from reality would also be wrong. The physical effort required to check 6 and the view limitations in VR are significantly closer to 'reality' than owl view.

 

Completely agree!

[OrLoK]

Yeah, I *am* a TIR owner but also feel its too....not "cheaty" rather a bit  "exploity" compared to the Rift.

 

But I wont blame anyone for using one.

 

Its like using external views. IMHO.

 

I like that I have to really move about to see my six now.

[A_radek]

 

 

If you are so unfortunate to get someone on your tail he's very likely going to kill you anyway. It's not that by looking at him you can pull off some improbable top gun maneuver to reverse the situation, unless he's a real noob. You see tracers streaming by your cockpit, evade. Dive for the deck, spilt-s, make his life difficult. Maybe someone will come to your aid or the bandit will lose sight of you. Most likely you are toast, but at least he's going to expend all his ammo to get you.

 

Multiplayer is fun in VR, even berloga. You just fly fast and concentrate aggressively on what's in front of you, forget what maybe lurking behind. Focus on giving at least as much lead as you take

I can't agree nibbio. I'm also a multiplayer kind of guy and find ability to check six (or just 5) very important. If you have bullets whizzing by, randomly maneuvering might shake your attacker off, but you probably won't know when that happens or where he went, and you will probably have lost an unnecesary amount of energy trying. If you succeed that is.

 

I use a swivel chair and can check my six just well and fast enough not to make things very uncomfortable. If I notice I'm under attack I try to spot the attacker as fast as possible. What's his relative speed, what way is he turning, high/low? This is the only way I can determine my best option. If you can keep track of your attacker and counter his moves it's often suprisingly easy to shake him off. No fancy skills needed.

 

This said I don't know why some still regard VR as a handicap compared to trackIR. Even though checking six takes more of an effort I find it considerably easier keeping track of an enemy in a fight. I roll right, see my attacker at my 5 o'clock follow me and he also starts a roll to the right, so before he/she is finished changing direction I start rolling left. And at this instant I turn my head left as fast as possible and instinctively know how much movement will be needed and where he will be. This is something I could never do very well with track IR, checking six was faster if I did it just to check, but in a fight it required "scanning" almost all the way from center to far six o'clock not to miss the needed angle. Rather than the fast head movement 1:1 headtracking instinctively allows.

 

Imho our only disadvantage is identifying aircraft due to the low resolution. Not spotting, I find spotting easier. But compared to monitor gameply I have to get closer to that 2-engine craft before I can make out from 6 o'clock if it's a pe-2 or a 110. Making the "VR zoom" zoom further would give us this as well.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by a_radek

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I'd like a bit more zoom also. It's what, 2x now, I'd like a 3x VR zoom.

[A_radek]

It would put us on the same level as experienced track IR users. As it's common knowledge identification (not spotting) is more difficult in VR I don't see any reason not to.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Yep agreed.

[katdog5]

anyone else play american football? remember "2 a days" practice beginning of season. that helmet on your weak ass neck the first 3 days...

 

 

curious if thats why my neck feels like to does now.  haha. checking six

 

 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

A weekend session of 3 hours of mp with my friends is tiring. My poor arm rests on my chair using them to brace on is wearing them out.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I'd like a bit more zoom also. It's what, 2x now, I'd like a 3x VR zoom.

 

That would be nice.  

 

 

anyone else play american football? remember "2 a days" practice beginning of season. that helmet on your weak ass neck the first 3 days...

 

Never played American football (tackle) so didn't get the helmet on head experience - but for early VR users, this might be a more appropos visual for the check 6 experience:

 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I think the Zoom limit of 2x was to ease new players into the sensation especially moving your head while zoomed (that was a no go at first). It was definitely something that took a little getting used to, but I agree an option for 3x would be well received as once you get your VR legs in IL2 upping the zoom level should be fine.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Just call me Linda.

 

Pea soup available upon request.

 

[dburne]

 

 

 

 

Never played American football (tackle) so didn't get the helmet on head experience - but for early VR users, this might be a more appropos visual for the check 6 experience:

 

BoS - VR Exorcist.jpg

 

Lol, no that is more like using Track IR, head on a swivel!

[Nibbio]

I can't agree nibbio. I'm also a multiplayer kind of guy and find ability to check six (or just 5) very important. If you have bullets whizzing by, randomly maneuvering might shake your attacker off, but you probably won't know when that happens or where he went, and you will probably have lost an unnecesary amount of energy trying. If you succeed that is.

 

I use a swivel chair and can check my six just well and fast enough not to make things very uncomfortable. If I notice I'm under attack I try to spot the attacker as fast as possible. What's his relative speed, what way is he turning, high/low? This is the only way I can determine my best option. If you can keep track of your attacker and counter his moves it's often suprisingly easy to shake him off. No fancy skills needed.

 

 

Tell you what, I've also come to disagree with myself

As a matter of fact I finally got an swivel chair too (Ikea LÅNGFJÄLL minus caster wheels). Can't say I ever managed to shake a bandit off, but sure is fascinating to watch while he blasts me out of the sky 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Nibbio

[A_radek]

Tell you what, I've also come to disagree with myself

As a matter of fact I finally got an swivel chair too (Ikea LÅNGFJÄLL minus caster wheels). Can't say I ever managed to shake a bandit off, but sure is fascinating to watch while he blasts me out of the sky 

Oh Ikea, the terror of every swedish family man

 

A friend took it one step further and mounted his joystick/throttle to the arm rests of that same chair. While the idea sounds nuts and very disorienting I tried it and it works surpisingly well. Half the neckstrain.

 

 

I regards to realism, I've read pilot accounts where they mentioned unbuckling the shoulder harnesses for easier viewing all around, well aware this could be fatal in an emergency landing (head hitting gunsight). And same goes for taking feet of the pedals - kicking the instrument panel for better leverage pulling the stick. I suppose they did anything they could think of to increase chances of survival. For some reason it never occured to me to try checking my six in a glider, but if I'm driving a car and give it some effort the real life fov does allow me to briefly check my six without too much ass rotation. And I'm neither young nor very flexible. So in my humble opinion VR and a swivel chair shoudn't be that far from realism, the swivel chair giving us those extra degrees of fov that the current HMD's lack.

 

[A_radek]

 

 

Until then, I prefer to not use a swivel chair to compensate that (just my choice). Since I am only SP I don´t need to be very competitive, I am able to just have fun without competition. (and will be probably too bad in MP)

 

 

Out of topic. But chili, if you can land, taxi, take off and manage your engine, your more than good to go. Join me for a session on teamspeak/taw and you'll be surprised what it's all about.