3rd time was the charm - got me a 109. Also some thoughts on the state of Alpha

[Finkeren]

Finally got to get some real flying time tonight to really try out air combat.

 

After flying RoF for years, combat flying comes naturally, yet feels totally different. The devs IMHO have done a great job capturing the speed and vertical nature of WW2 air combat. 

 

I was determined to achive at least one kill in the LaGG before allowing myself to try out the Bf 109. To my surprise it only took me 3 attempts, and I even managed to survive the first two, so amazingly enough my Soviet pilot is still "alive" and now with 2 kills to his name 

 

Jumping into the Bf 109, you really get a sense, why German pilots achieved such amazing success in that plane. Got 2 kills in the first mission alone, and left the 109 in the hangar after the fifth mission. Against novice AI (which is what I presume I was fighting) it's just a tad too easy.

 

Overall my first impression after around 10 missions is quite positive, still considering that we're in an alpha state. It can be broken down into the following points:

 

Weapons model and effects: The guns sound great and their noise is extremely powerful (perhaps even too much?) but I was pleasantly surprsised to find, that you cannot hear your enemies guns over the noise of your engine, even when he's very close. The muzzle flashes are well done but IMHO too big and too visible in broad daylight, especially the MG flashes should be practically invisible during the day. Ballistics seem pretty natural, and I think I noticed (but this might be wrong) a bit larger bullet drop on the lower muzzle velocity German guns. Gunnery is pretty straightforward for anyone with experience from WW2 sims. Dispersion is significant, but I wouldn't completely rule out shooting at ranges over 400m, once I get some experience. Not sure I like the way tracers are presented (have not tried them out in a night mission though) but I like, that they are kinda "toned down" and not very bright in full daylight. The damage effect of the guns seems about right, both planes are well equiped to deal with opposing fighters.

 

Damage model: A lot of things still seem unfinished or "placeholder-ish", but some things work really well and the overall impression is solid. The smoke puffs indicating bullet and cannon shell hits are well made but seem massively over done. They are extremely apparent with 20mm hits leaving an opaque black cloud looking like an 88mm shell burst. These, I think, could do with a bit of toning down. The visual damage to the plane is generally nicely done, with bullet holes in the metal skin looking very convincing. The same, unfortunately, can not be said for the damage to the wooden parts of the LaGG, which looks pixelated and out of place. Parts of the plane coming loose and falling off looks natural and very much like RoF, and there is even the same kind of cumulative damage where the airflow slowly pulls a damaged plane apart - well done. Cockpit damage is something of a nuisance: It occurs way too often and seldom involves a wound for the pilot. In more than half of my dogfights in the LaGG, I've had my gunsight smashed and rendered useless (still managed to get one of my kills with a smashed sight though), the cockpit damage could also use som particle effects and animation when they happen. Engine damage seems nicely done, but could posibly use some variation - every time I get the "black smoke" I can pretty much set a clock for how long I have left before it cuts out. I have yet to see fire, but a falling plane exploding on impact looks great up close, less so at longer distance. The smoke trails are a bit of a letdown though. They are nicely done, but disappear much too quickly and leave only a very short trail, even the heavy black smoke. Damage sounds are nice, when they are there, but most still seem to be missing.

 

Spotting and LoD: Unfortunately there seems to be an issue with LoD. Planes seem to appear only, when they are quite close, and are extremely hard to spot at distances beyond 1 km. Closer than that, it looks very good, and I've had no trouble keeping contact at dogfighting distances. ID'ing planes is not really an issue yet, but seems to come quite naturally like in RoF. At medium - close distance the rendering is really, really good. I never get the impression, which I often get in other flight sims, that the other plane suddenly changes shape or seems to jump closer/farther as distance changes.  

 

FM and combat dynamics: With just 10 missions under my belt it's hard to judge exactly how well the FMs work in a combat situation, but first impresssion is, that it feels pretty much spot-on. The energy game is alpha-and-omega all the way through. Endless turn fights are pretty much out of the question, and finding and learning the optimal speeds and angles for different maneuvers is going to be an ongoing process for a long time. No matter how experienced you are from other flight sims, it's gonna take time to get even the Bf 109 to perform optimally. Flying in BoS is not bound to get boring anytime soon.

 

AI: For an early alpha build, the AI seems pretty solid at first glance. My guess is, that I've mostly flown against novice AI in my first missions, and while they certainly presented enough of a challenge for a rookie like me, it was also clear, that the AI did not fly the planes optimally, didn't shot with sniper accuracy and had a limited range of maneuvers, though it didn't feel repettitive, and so far I didn't notice much in the way of exploitable patterns. The AI also seems to be handling energy alright, and so far I haven't seen it get stuck in a suicidal "safe mode" at low altitude, as it does in RoF  The AI also seemed to respond quite well to damage. It will fly a damaged plane much more carefully, and several times, it even seemed to try to disengage. What's more: The AI actually seemed to adjust its flying in accordance with damge that the player sustains! Several times, I've had my engine damaged while flying the LaGG, and found the 109 suddenly shifting tactics from a close vertical dogfight to actively BnZ'ing, using my reduced power against me. I might well be reading more into the AI's behavior, than what is actually there, but when it leaves this kind of first impression, something must be right. The one negative thing about the AI, I found so far, is that it seems too willing to engage in head-on shoot outs.

 

Overall I think this update revealed a lot more issues and stuff that's still missing than the preceding version, but the core of the sim is still rock-solid and even the unfinished aspects are showing a lot of potential.

 

The project still seems to be firmly on track. Good work team.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Finkeren

[Freycinet]

Thanks, good analysis.

[Fifi]

Good report Finkeren!

Mine would be slightly different on this point though...

 

 

Endless turn fights are pretty much out of the question, and finding and learning the optimal speeds and angles for different maneuvers is going to be an ongoing process for a long time. No matter how experienced you are from other flight sims, it's gonna take time to get even the Bf 109 to perform optimally.

 

Just for fun, i've flown the 109 as a German TB in ROF...and it works!

Meaning forgeting about energy at all, just trying to stay in the Lagg 6 using only throttle...

Even no flaps at all!

Of the 3 or 4 tries, i always shot down the Lagg flying this way, and stalled and spinned only 1 time...   

Last try, i even shot down 5 Laggs to my surprise, before i landed 100% safe on my airfield (and i'm a bad warbird shooter - it was always my problem in WW2 sim)

That brings me a thought:

Or the 109 needs some tuning to match reality, or the AI is a bit off...

I tend to think for the first thought. Was the 109 able to follow a Lagg in any turns without flaps?

On side note, my biggest problem was to spot the ennemy 

 

PS: Flying Lagg is a completely different story...

Edited December 8, 2013 by Fifi

[Maico]

  Now folks, That is how you write your impressions!   Very nicely said Finkeren. 

I have found the not so novice Ai.  Thrust me, he is out there.  He really gives me a time.  Lose him for a minute and he is up your butt.

I like the puffs of smoke.  It may be overdone, I guess it is subjective...

 

Maico

[=38=Tatarenko]

Yes the 109 was lighter and could turn fine.

[Finkeren]

Well, that was it for now. Got a few dozen dogfights under my belt, and I can now sit back and evaluate the results of this session:

 

Basically all the points from the OP still stands, with one exception: I have to give it to Fifi: The 109 really can dogfight just about any way you want it to, including a tight horizontal turnfight.

 

Amazingly I have not been killed once in my many fights and only wounded twice, which tells me, that the devs might wanna work on the ratio between pilot- and cokpit damage, because nearly every single time a bullet as much as grazed my plane, there was some sort of damage occuring in the cockpit. I really do not hope that the devs are using cockpit damage as some sort of general damage indicator the way WT does - I very much count on that  not being the case.

 

My impressions of the two different planes I guess it much the same as everyone elses:

 

The LaGG is something of a sitting duck, but it has a very sharp beak. After a few attempts I could take out novice AI in a 109 with some regularity, especially if I allowed myself an initial energy advantage. Against a human pilot however, there's a really limited range of things you can do. The one major advantage of the LaGG is its durability, which is markedly better than the Bf 109.

I had some moderate succes with using fast scissors and dropping a bit of flaps to keep the LaGG stable to force an overshoot, which left the 109 an easy target every time. The small ammo supply meant, that I never got my kill streak above the first 2 before running out, so I never really encountered other than novice AI in the LaGG.

 

The Bf 109 is predictably awesome and extremely easy to fight in, but it is also helped by the fact, that the novice AI is really bad at flying the LaGG. The constant oscillating pitch and really slow turn rate of my opponents tell me, that the AI still needs some tweaking to fly the LaGG realistically. That is part of the reason, I quickly gave up on flying combat missions with the 109, there was simply no challenge (I was not shot down a single time in 109) and the plane itself just isn't half as interesting to fly as the LaGG.

 

I also tried out the night mission to check weapons effects in the dark, and I must say that it looks a lot better than during the day. The tracers and muzzle flashes look natural and not overly bright, though it does annoy me, that the flashes reflect off the dashboard, when there is absolutely no way that could happen IRL. I also like the way bullet impacts in the snow are presented and enjoy the tiny little spark that comes with every 5 - 6 hits (HE or incendiary I guess)

 

Further I tried strafing a few friendly trucks and static planes, and while I was a bit underwhelmed på the DM (basically it's all "flamers") I admit it did look nice. Ground pounding in BoS is thrilling and surprisingly difficult, especially in the LaGG. There is a great sense of speed and imminent danger. I simply can't wait to try out the IL-2. 

 

One more thing: I finally got to see real explosions and fire, and I have to retract my ealier comments about smoke trails: It looks stunningly good and last plenty long enough. The fire looks great, but the explosions might just be a tad too red in color for my taste. Still, really good effects.

 

This session has been a lot of fun. Really looking forward to next weekend.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Finkeren

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I agree 100% on the cockpit damage. In fact this seems to be the only damage I ever incurred other than some smoking. There should be several models of shot up cockpit and some sort of animation of it happening. At this point it sorta instantly switches to broken. I never did notice any pulling of the plane in any direction when damaged or loss of control other than engine power. I do hope the damage model see's a major upgrade from how it is.

 

I am still very impressed with the game at it's current state. I just hope to see more refinement over more content.

Edited December 9, 2013 by driftaholic

[Finkeren]

I agree 100% on the cockpit damage. In fact this seems to be the only damage I ever incurred other than some smoking. There should be several models of shot up cockpit and some sort of animation of it happening. At this point it sorta instantly switches to broken. I never did notice any pulling of the plane in any direction when damaged or loss of control other than engine power. I do hope the damage model see's a major upgrade from how it is.

Well, I think you've been a bit unlucky TBH. I've seen almost any kind of damage imaginable, including:

 

Bullet holes (with different textures for wood and metal surfaces)

 

Holes in wings or control surfaces affecting how the aircraft handles

 

Loss of control surfaces

 

Parts of wings or stabilisers being shot off or pulled of by the airflow.

 

Entire tail section shot off

 

Landing gear shot off

 

Oil leak

 

Fuel leak

 

Coolant leak

 

Oil fire

 

Engine fire

 

Exploding fuel tank

 

Cockpit damage (and a lot of it)

 

Pilot wounded

 

Pilot kill

 

So far cockpit damage is the only one I really have a problem with.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Finkeren

[Fifi]

Well, that was it for now. Got a few dozen dogfights under my belt, and I can now sit back and evaluate the results of this session:

 

Basically all the points from the OP still stands, with one exception: I have to give it to Fifi: The 109 really can dogfight just about any way you want it to, including a tight horizontal turnfight.

 

Amazingly I have not been killed once in my many fights and only wounded twice, which tells me, that the devs might wanna work on the ratio between pilot- and cokpit damage, because nearly every single time a bullet as much as grazed my plane, there was some sort of damage occuring in the cockpit. I really do not hope that the devs are using cockpit damage as some sort of general damage indicator the way WT does - I very much count on that  not being the case.

 

My impressions of the two different planes I guess it much the same as everyone elses:

 

The LaGG is something of a sitting duck, but it has a very sharp beak. After a few attempts I could take out novice AI in a 109 with some regularity, especially if I allowed myself an initial energy advantage. Against a human pilot however, there's a really limited range of things you can do. The one major advantage of the LaGG is its durability, which is markedly better than the Bf 109.

I had some moderate succes with using fast scissors and dropping a bit of flaps to keep the LaGG stable to force an overshoot, which left the 109 an easy target every time. The small ammo supply meant, that I never got my kill streak above the first 2 before running out, so I never really encountered other than novice AI in the LaGG.

 

The Bf 109 is predictably awesome and extremely easy to fight in, but it is also helped by the fact, that the novice AI is really bad at flying the LaGG. The constant oscillating pitch and really slow turn rate of my opponents tell me, that the AI still needs some tweaking to fly the LaGG realistically. That is part of the reason, I quickly gave up on flying combat missions with the 109, there was simply no challenge (I was not shot down a single time in 109) and the plane itself just isn't half as interesting to fly as the LaGG.

 

I also tried out the night mission to check weapons effects in the dark, and I must say that it looks a lot better than during the day. The tracers and muzzle flashes look natural and not overly bright, though it does annoy me, that the flashes reflect off the dashboard, when there is absolutely no way that could happen IRL. I also like the way bullet impacts in the snow are presented and enjoy the tiny little spark that comes with every 5 - 6 hits (HE or incendiary I guess)

 

Further I tried strafing a few friendly trucks and static planes, and while I was a bit underwhelmed på the DM (basically it's all "flamers") I admit it did look nice. Ground pounding in BoS is thrilling and surprisingly difficult, especially in the LaGG. There is a great sense of speed and imminent danger. I simply can't wait to try out the IL-2. 

 

One more thing: I finally got to see real explosions and fire, and I have to retract my ealier comments about smoke trails: It looks stunningly good and last plenty long enough. The fire looks great, but the explosions might just be a tad too red in color for my taste. Still, really good effects.

 

This session has been a lot of fun. Really looking forward to next weekend.

 

I now agree with all you said, cokpit damage included! 

[Vandal]

I could not take down a 109 to save my life. But during one engagement a 109 shot out my gun sight and I quickly broke contact and headed back to land at base.  I didn't realize he was following me the whole way and as I turned and slowed for landing approach he over shot me, right over my canopy!!  I jerked the stick back to the left and went in pursuit.  Even with a busted gun sight I took him down.  I couldn't get one before that and haven't been able to get one since.