VR and multiplayer

[Nibbio]

I'd like to open a discussion on how multiplayer is working for those few brave souls who have given up their TIR to cruise the unfriendly skies in low res without being able to check six

 

Just flew maybe half a dozen sorties so far, after 500+ hours with TIR, and made a few observations:

 

1) Spotting seems way easier, at least at lower distances (below 4 or 5 k)

 

2) Identification seems possible within 1k range

 

3) ACM come much more natural and intuitive

 

4) Both air and especially ground targets appear "larger" as they should be, probably due to the larger FOV of the headset (I think the FOV most people use on a monitor is around 80 degrees, vs. 110 degrees of the HDM); 110 degrees FOV on a flat monitor would look distorted whereas in the HDM it seems natural

 

5) Accurate gunnery appears easier, due in part to #3, and in part to the 3D effect that allows to better asses the trajectory of the tracers, and sort of walk them to the target. However if ASW kicks in accurate gunnery becomes much more difficult as the vision is distorted by graphics artifacts, so it's important to give up the eye candy as much as possible to maintain 90 fps in all situations

 

6) Also dive bombing accuracy seems improved

 

7) Finally the difficulty of checking six can be partially overcome by better flying practices (never fly in straight line, etc) and the improved situational awareness of the HDM

 

As a personal note, I find myself more attracted to flying fighters than before, even if ground pounding remains as interesting as before.

 

Does anyone agree/disagree with these observations? Are there other things you have noticed that I have missed?

 

 

 

 

[Toxin1]

I agree with your assessment.  Under ACM, formation flying is easier as well due to better spacial awareness from 3D visuals.

[TP-Blackjack-]

I agree with all your observations. Before VR I wouldn't play multiplayer with TIR unless it was as a group because I didn't have the skills to take on pilots who fly multiplayer in WoL all the time. I braved the WoL server in VR last night, found myself on my own in a G2 amongst an IL-2 and a couple of Yaks, the spacial awareness VR gives in a fight is a major advantage and this was proved as I shot down all 3 enemy aircraft; this is something I haven't even come close to doing in multiplayer before VR.

I believe the more experience pilots get flying in VR the more dangerous they will become. There is no going back for me, the VR genie is out of the bottle.

Edited April 25, 2017 by TP-Blackjack-

[Nibbio]

I forgot one important aspect for older folks like me: no need to use reading glasses!

[Thad]

Really? This is good side benefit.

[Bearfoot]

I agree with almost all of this!

 

Gunnery, especially deflection shooting is waaaaaaaaay better.

 

But also general situational awareness, mapping things out in your head where things are in virtual space. This applies to furious a2a furball melees with everyone whizzing this way and that. And not just things in the air, but also ground references, so that when you fly away to make another pass or do a circuit before landing --- things are exactly where you think they are when you turn around and look. Before in TrackIR, there would need to be constant correction, i.e. it is not exactly where I though it would be, and I have to look, e.g. 10 pixels to the left or right or up or down (or, not unusually, get completely disoriented and have to search all over again). Maybe a small micro-correction only, and I have no doubt that there are experts to whom this is NBD, but for me, I did not realize the mental as well as time burden hundreds of those small micro-corrections cost until the need for this disappears, as in VR.

 

I have not tried dive-bombing, so cannot comment on that ...

 

I do find ID'ing a little more challenging at a distance: difficult to make out wing shapes from a smudge at a distance. From a distance, all smudges look alike. On my 4K, not just detail, but color shows up better at a greater distance, so that also helps. Up close (i.e., in engagement range), however, ID'ing is equal.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Bearfoot

[Remontti]

Agree with OPs observations.

 

I wouldn't say that checking six is impossible, just slower and more troublesome. Using swivel chair and letting go of throttle when looking left / using left arm with stick when looking right are my tricks to check 6. Intense combat is also a lot more physical with vr when you're swinging your head like a madman.

 

I was worried that I would be in serious disadvantage with vr in a no icons server like WoL. But so far it has been good and I don't feel like a underdog.

 

Performance and need to disable HUD are the biggest cons at the time. When ASW kicks in seems to more linked to amount of nearby planes and ground objects than graphical settings.

[dburne]

I believe the more experience pilots get flying in VR the more dangerous they will become. There is no going back for me, the VR genie is out of the bottle.

 

 

Sounds good.

I am still working on my skills with SP, may eventually dip my toes in MP before it is over.

 

I am certainly doing better in SP than I ever have before...

I forgot one important aspect for older folks like me: no need to use reading glasses!

 

I found the same as well, was pleasantly surprised.

[A_radek]

On my 4K, not just detail, but color shows up better at a greater distance, so that also helps. Up close (i.e., in engagement range), however, ID'ing is equal.

I noticed the same.

 

Many run il2 with a decreased gamma of 0.8. On a 2d screen it helped with spotting against a blue sky through a canopy that tends to wash out the contrast. In VR I find you don't need this trick. But Instead running gamma at default 1.0 actually brings back some of that color that helps identify targets. So check gamma settings.

[Flitgun]

I suppose I need to put in a quick background *note before my comments: *I have never had TrackIR - I used mouse for looking (damned awkward). I had not used BoS or any other 777 sim in 2D monitor - though I have spent much time with older IL2 titles. I shall keep my comments relevant to a TrackIR user.

 

a) I find identification difficult. I need to be quite close to discover friend or foe most of the time. Sometimes it's obvious, mostly it isn't.

 

b) I had always been in the habit of slow turn check six. I have to turn and bank a little more due to the VR clumsiness in this area. (edit: in the expert cockpit)

 

c) I find it is sometimes harder to predict the distance of an enemy aircraft. This seems more apparent when I am trying to lead guns on a target that is approaching me. It is as if the aircraft remains the same size for a longer period of time. I suppose the fewer pixels delegated to the aircraft remain so for longer.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Flitgun

[SAG]

Would the two of you please state what HMD youre using?? 

[TP-Blackjack-]

Would the two of you please state what HMD youre using??

I use the Rift cv1

[Nibbio]

Oculus Rift here

[Bearfoot]

Rift as well

[A_radek]

Good thread as I suspect many are trying to read up as much as possible on VR in il2 before plunging in.

 

Here's some of my experience buying the rift last week, mainly for the purpose of using it with il2 in multiplayer. So this will be written from the perspective of a VR noob.

 

First, and this is probably obvious for most but was not for me, eyesight matters! I'm near sighted meaning I need glasses to see well far away. For me in VR everything's blurred. Wearing glasses with the rift is closer to painful than uncomfortable. And besides that, I discovered the hard way the oculus lenses scratch very easily. So avoid trying that. Lenses work well but late at night when I usually get some il2 time, lenses are quite straining. Have yet to find a good solution here.

 

Many have mentioned spotting is easier or as easy as with a 2d screen. I agree. But only against a sky. Spotting low flying targets against a forest or busy terrain I find as difficult as before.

 

It does take roughly 2 days of tweaking settings to find something your comfortable with. This was a frustrating surprise for me as I expected things to work better out of the box. Not being able to hold 90fps means having asw kicking in. This degrades image clarity making spotting considerably more difficult overall, not only through the propeller arc. So finding a balance between fps and eye candy takes some time.

 

I find that in close knife fights VR is an advantage despite having to swivel around in your chair. You don't loose track of the opponent very easily. Meaning you can counter the moves he/she does much more effectively. Quite often I notice the enemy ac obviously having lost track of me in a dogfight. This rarely happened with TrackIr as I was often myself busy trying to figure out where that attacker went once he disappeared under my wing.

 

Many have mentioned gunnery got easier wth VR. This is something you notice immediately. But now after a couple of days of practice I even find myself "hip shooting" effectively. Meaning in a hectic dogfight I don't always bother looking through the reticle. But rather at the point in space I know my bullets will pass. I'm sure some can do that with trackir and a good portion of gunnery talent, but it's so much easier with proper depth perception and always knowing the orientation of your aircraft, even when looking up or to the sides without much canopy frames visible for reference.

 

Checking six sometimes made my rift loose tracking. So moved the sensor from the table to a shelf above my monitor and tilted it to point downwards at me. It's now rock solid.

 

The hud enabled is for me a massive performance decrease in VR, so I keep it off. I Didn't realize how dependent on it I was till now that I try to fly without it. That compass on the lower left corner is so much easier to read than some of the Russian in-cockpit ones. (109 compass is pretty good though). For instance how did they set proper flaps angle in the la5. It's just a button that get's pressed in the cockpit when you lower them. No way to know how many % your at. And then there is that co-pilot that shouts at you when oil or cylinder temp is reaching dangerous levels so you don't have to constantly keep track of things yourself. I enjoy looking at the dashboard rather than using a hud. You suddenly appreciate aircraft with well designed instruments and a good layout. But this is a clear disadvantage in multiplayer. On the other hand I can't understand why full real servers have hud enabled as keeping track of things yourself is a big part of it.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Great post a_radek. Sums up the VR experience very well.

 

One comment about glasses. I have the HTC Vive and the foam has cutouts that allow the frames to fit snugly into the foam. I wear glasses in mine without issue (and have for over a year) other than the risk of lens scratches. I foolishly didn't adjust the display away from my face (possible with Vive) to cater for the glasses. Now I have a small smudge/scratch in an area that luckily is almost completely unnoticeable unless I'm trying to find it.

[coconut]

People who need glasses in VR should take a look at vr-lens.eu (not to be mistaken with vr lens lab). I ordered lenses from them and they do the job.

[Nibbio]

People who need glasses in VR should take a look at vr-lens.eu (not to be mistaken with vr lens lab). I ordered lenses from them and they do the job.

 

That's very interesting. Thx for the link!

[Jade_Monkey]

Spotting seems easier but identifying is nearly impossible for me. They are all a bunch of pixels.

[TP-Blackjack-]

Good thread as I suspect many are trying to read up as much as possible on VR in il2 before plunging in.

 

Here's some of my experience buying the rift last week, mainly for the purpose of using it with il2 in multiplayer. So this will be written from the perspective of a VR noob.

 

First, and this is probably obvious for most but was not for me, eyesight matters! I'm near sighted meaning I need glasses to see well far away. For me in VR everything's blurred. Wearing glasses with the rift is closer to painful than uncomfortable. And besides that, I discovered the hard way the oculus lenses scratch very easily. So avoid trying that. Lenses work well but late at night when I usually get some il2 time, lenses are quite straining. Have yet to find a good solution here.

 

Many have mentioned spotting is easier or as easy as with a 2d screen. I agree. But only against a sky. Spotting low flying targets against a forest or busy terrain I find as difficult as before.

 

It does take roughly 2 days of tweaking settings to find something your comfortable with. This was a frustrating surprise for me as I expected things to work better out of the box. Not being able to hold 90fps means having asw kicking in. This degrades image clarity making spotting considerably more difficult overall, not only through the propeller arc. So finding a balance between fps and eye candy takes some time.

 

I find that in close knife fights VR is an advantage despite having to swivel around in your chair. You don't loose track of the opponent very easily. Meaning you can counter the moves he/she does much more effectively. Quite often I notice the enemy ac obviously having lost track of me in a dogfight. This rarely happened with TrackIr as I was often myself busy trying to figure out where that attacker went once he disappeared under my wing.

 

Many have mentioned gunnery got easier wth VR. This is something you notice immediately. But now after a couple of days of practice I even find myself "hip shooting" effectively. Meaning in a hectic dogfight I don't always bother looking through the reticle. But rather at the point in space I know my bullets will pass. I'm sure some can do that with trackir and a good portion of gunnery talent, but it's so much easier with proper depth perception and always knowing the orientation of your aircraft, even when looking up or to the sides without much canopy frames visible for reference.

 

Checking six sometimes made my rift loose tracking. So moved the sensor from the table to a shelf above my monitor and tilted it to point downwards at me. It's now rock solid.

 

The hud enabled is for me a massive performance decrease in VR, so I keep it off. I Didn't realize how dependent on it I was till now that I try to fly without it. That compass on the lower left corner is so much easier to read than some of the Russian in-cockpit ones. (109 compass is pretty good though). For instance how did they set proper flaps angle in the la5. It's just a button that get's pressed in the cockpit when you lower them. No way to know how many % your at. And then there is that co-pilot that shouts at you when oil or cylinder temp is reaching dangerous levels so you don't have to constantly keep track of things yourself. I enjoy looking at the dashboard rather than using a hud. You suddenly appreciate aircraft with well designed instruments and a good layout. But this is a clear disadvantage in multiplayer. On the other hand I can't understand why full real servers have hud enabled as keeping track of things yourself is a big part of it.

If you download oculus debug tool and disable ASW you should find that this fixes the gunsight and prop distortion when fps drops; given how system heavy the game is,and the current limits of VR resolution, it's understandable that it takes some time to negotiate the best settings for each individual's system and taste.

I've completely embraced flying with HUD off. This again adds to the immersion, having to learn to properly read the instruments has been great fun. On the La5 you'll find the flap angle indicator on the bottom left of the front panel, it looks a bit like a thermometer with the angles read from 0 at the top and indicated by a moving red line.

[A_radek]

Tripwire. Luckily as you mention these scratches/smudges are not a problem when playing. And though I felt like an idiot after scratching a lens day 1. Day 2 I found it a good exercise in not ocd:ing over less important things

 

Coconut. Thanks for that link. I had already heard of VR lens lab as they have filled Google with their ads. But also heard their products were below bad. VR-lens.eu seems interesting didn't know there were alternatives. No image distortions or other problems with those? And do they rest against the rifts lenses? Worried I'll scratch things up even more.

 

Blackjack. Many many thanks. Didn't notice that thingamabob thermometer. I'm still not comfortable without hud but getting there slowly and enjoying the learning process.

[coconut]

 

 

Coconut. Thanks for that link. I had already heard of VR lens lab as they have filled Google with their ads. But also heard their products were below bad. VR-lens.eu seems interesting didn't know there were alternatives. No image distortions or other problems with those? And do they rest against the rifts lenses? Worried I'll scratch things up even more.

 

I've also read lots of bad reports on VR lens lab. VR-lens.eu have chosen a simpler path. They are basically making regular glasses with a custom mount. They don't touch the lenses. No image distortion that I can see. One possible minor problems is that they sit close to your eyes, and your eye lashes might brush against them. They might also get "misty", depending on how tight your rift sits on your face. But that's not been a problem for me so far

 

I have tried wearing my glasses inside the rift. I was careful not to scratch anything, but I knew it was only a matter of time before it would happen.

 

One negative is that I see the screen door a lot more clearly now. Oh well...

[Bearfoot]

I have presbyopic, so, for now, do not need to wear glasses with the Rift, right?

 

I am curious, however, as to possible solutions for, if, in the future I might need to.

 

From what I can make out, both vr lens lab and vr-lens.eu use the same approach: i.e., custom lens inserts. 

 

How are they different?

[coconut]

Distortion issues with vr lens lab according to a thread on Reddit

[Bearfoot]

Distortion issues with vr lens lab according to a thread on Reddit

Good to know. Thanks!

[A_radek]

Thanks coconut. Appreciate your input on those.

 

Also found this lengthy comparison:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/5q4x97/comparison_between_vr_lens_eu_and_vr_lens_lab/

 

Despite the screen door I guess this is still our best alternative.

[Nibbio]

Thank you Coconut. Just ordered the lenses from VR-lens.eu.

[Herne]

I actually bought IL2 BOS on pre order years ago. I did this because I mistakenly thought VR would be available at launch. I've only really started to mess around with it seriously quite recently, initially just flying bombers because no head tracking, or gunner for other people. 

 

Since I started playing in VR though, IL2 has me addicted. This is some really immersive stuff right here. I can't identify sod all, and have shot at more than one friendly. To avoid upsetting people I try to fly cap over friendly targets hoping they fire some AA or flak up in the general direction of someone giving me something to aim at. Otherwise I'll take a Stuka. I love flying the HE111 but I suck at high level bombing inspite of plenty of practice.

 

I'm not really noticing a problem with the FPS and the HUD, although I do have multi GPU enabled, SLI 1080's and ultra settings. IL2 in VR is very almost a dream come true, I say almost only because of how difficult it is to identify a silhouette in VR. This will get better with future generations of HMD's I'm sure.

Anyway, VR was a long time coming, and may have been a pain in the ass for the Dev's but I hope that additional interest and sales, help them see that the fruits of their labor are worth it.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I've just tried multiplayer in VR for the first time, just a toe.  I was surprised at how good it was, especially keeping tabs on several Bogey's at the same time, it's just so much better at building a mental map of the airspace around you and what different players are most likely up to.

 

If I had one issue it was clicking the scroll chevron in the results column at the end of the match, it and I think some other similar menu buttons were really persnickety when trying to click on them.

[Nibbio]

Wanted to report on the Oculus Rift corrective lenses I got from VR-Lens.eu.

 

Just installed them and took them for a spin. They are just perfect, don't move once installed, no reflexes, no distortion, no fogging, no apparent reduction of FOV.

I don't even notice they are there, except for the fact that I see much better (light myopia in one eye and astigmatism in both).

 

Highly recommended if you normally have to wear glasses. Of course not for presbyopia, as already mentioned longsightedness is fine with HMDs.

[A_radek]

Wanted to report on the Oculus Rift corrective lenses I got from VR-Lens.eu.

 

Just installed them and took them for a spin. They are just perfect, don't move once installed, no reflexes, no distortion, no fogging, no apparent reduction of FOV.

I don't even notice they are there, except for the fact that I see much better (light myopia in one eye and astigmatism in both).

 

Highly recommended if you normally have to wear glasses. Of course not for presbyopia, as already mentioned longsightedness is fine with HMDs.

as it happens I also got mine today. Suppose you also got stuck in that frame-manufacture delay.

 

Can only agree. Lenses and vision now absolutely flawless, so much so that I think I need to turn off that sharpen-filter.

 

I did notice a jagged edge on those plastic ears. Only takes a second to fix with an exacto and should prolong life of that fabric.

[Capt_Stubing]

Pretty much agree with all the comments in this thread.  I took the plunge about a month ago knowing any 2 gen HMD is about 2 years away.  I was waiting for gen 2 now that we have 1080 Tis which can actually run 4k but by the time they show up there will be a new Gen GPU Volta perhaps.  Anyways VR is pretty incredible for many of the reasons stated above.