Dive Speeds

[Barnacles]

On the game now i have done a lot of tests and was imposible for me to outdive a yak 1 with the 109 at any angle.

I tested to reach both the max speed, both to 700, both to 600 and the yak just seem to take more speed with less angle so when the 109 comes to the ground the yak just have more altitude to still diving and finaly the yak overtakes the 109 quite easyly. I have not found any situation where to dive against a yak is a good option as much as you can win is some time but nothing more than that.

 

Is that correct? I have never heared a singel pilot talking about keeping the yaks on the dives with the german planes. They just talked about if they saw the german pilot to dive by by

 

Yes, that's what I found as well. We flew a F4 and a 1b side by side online on the kuban autumn map and dove at varying angles from around 2000m. We found that the acceleration was very similar at shallow angles and the 109 was very slightly better at steeper angles. 

 

I know there are a lot of quotes from Finnish 109G pilots who would say they'd dive away from VVS fighters to escape, but I can't remember if this was because they knew the VVS fighters had a lower dive speed limit, or if they had an aerodynamic advantage.

 

Edit: I have found in many planes, not just yaks, that if I dive too steeply in a 109 and they follow at my high 6, they will overtake as they are taking a more effiecent route I think. If that is what you are doing in your test where you say the yak has less angle this is maybe why.

Edited January 10, 2018 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

On the game now i have done a lot of tests and was imposible for me to outdive a yak 1 with the 109 at any angle. I tested to reach both the max speed, both to 700, both to 600 and the yak just seem to take more speed with less angle so when the 109 comes to the ground the yak just have more altitude to still diving and finaly the yak overtakes the 109 quite easyly. I have not found any situation where to dive against a yak is a good option as much as you can win is some time but nothing more than that. Is that correct? I have never heared a singel pilot talking about keeping the yaks on the dives with the german planes. They just talked about if they saw the german pilot to dive by by

You should also try 190 vs 109. You will see it is also impossible for the 190, to get seperation.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

On the game now i have done a lot of tests and was imposible for me to outdive a yak 1 with the 109 at any angle. I tested to reach both the max speed, both to 700, both to 600 and the yak just seem to take more speed with less angle so when the 109 comes to the ground the yak just have more altitude to still diving and finaly the yak overtakes the 109 quite easyly. I have not found any situation where to dive against a yak is a good option as much as you can win is some time but nothing more than that. Is that correct? I have never heared a singel pilot talking about keeping the yaks on the dives with the german planes. They just talked about if they saw the german pilot to dive by by

 

What altitude did you start from?

The max speed of the 109 is 850 and 730 for the yak. So you did not go to max speed.

You are right though you can only gain seperation of you can stay above 750 in your 109. If you stay at around 700 you will gain no separation.

IMO compression on the material used on yak´s wings should slow it down considerably more than the material used on 109s after reaching around 650 kph. So even though it may be able to reach speeds of around 720 you should start gaining an advantage a lot earlier than currently modelled. The devs have already stated that compression effects are NOT modeled right now...

So when you dive make sure you can reach speeds of above 750. That is the only way to escape from a yak in a dive

Edited January 10, 2018 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dakpilot]

What altitude did you start from?

The max speed of the 109 is 850 and 730 for the yak. So you did not go to max speed.

You are right though you can only gain seperation of you can stay above 750 in your 109. If you stay at around 700 you will gain no separation.

IMO compression on the material used on yak´s wings should slow it down considerably more than the material used on 109s after reaching around 650 kph. So even though it may be able to reach speeds of around 720 you should start gaining an advantage a lot earlier than currently modelled. The devs have already stated that compression effects are NOT modeled right now...

So when you dive make sure you can reach speeds of above 750. That is the only way to escape from a yak in a dive

 

 

What compression are you talking about?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[E69_geramos109]

What altitude did you start from?

The max speed of the 109 is 850 and 730 for the yak. So you did not go to max speed.

You are right though you can only gain seperation of you can stay above 750 in your 109. If you stay at around 700 you will gain no separation.

IMO compression on the material used on yak´s wings should slow it down considerably more than the material used on 109s after reaching around 650 kph. So even though it may be able to reach speeds of around 720 you should start gaining an advantage a lot earlier than currently modelled. The devs have already stated that compression effects are NOT modeled right now...

So when you dive make sure you can reach speeds of above 750. That is the only way to escape from a yak in a dive

Various alttitudes most of the examples from 3000 to 0. I also tested max dive speed on the 109 when all the plane start to shake like cracy but this will not help you. You gain separation at that time because they have to pull a little to stay below 700 but same hapens. You reach the ground and you start loosing speed whle the yak has still alt to follow you. At the end he will overtake you on the ground with quite a lot more speed than you soo. I have flought both planes on the test i have close the radiators on the 109 and taking care about centering the ball and... even when the yak excedes the speed limit and looses some ailerons he can caught like nothing happens. If on yor 6 there is a yak close enought that you can not climb or run you cant do nothing diving.

[Trinkof]

Let's just remember, that in real life Soviet aircrafts were poorly built .... not poorly designed, with some production a.c. being 40km.h slower than the prototype.... with huge differences between aircrafts from the same factory sometime !

So I guess, IRL Soviets pilots were more cautious....

What we have in BOS are the ideal plane of each type, with optimal performance, regardless of quality of contruction, and they have very few in common with aircraft on the frontline.

 

So you should stop comparing "IRL, real pilots said .... " it is a non sense.

 

Real units Yaks probably risked to disintegrate over 650 km/h , I guess developer have data about prototypes or pre production plane showing they could dive better... and this is the planes modeled in game....

[E69_geramos109]

Yes, that's what I found as well. We flew a F4 and a 1b side by side online on the kuban autumn map and dove at varying angles from around 2000m. We found that the acceleration was very similar at shallow angles and the 109 was very slightly better at steeper angles. 

 

I know there are a lot of quotes from Finnish 109G pilots who would say they'd dive away from VVS fighters to escape, but I can't remember if this was because they knew the VVS fighters had a lower dive speed limit, or if they had an aerodynamic advantage.

 

Edit: I have found in many planes, not just yaks, that if I dive too steeply in a 109 and they follow at my high 6, they will overtake as they are taking a more effiecent route I think. If that is what you are doing in your test where you say the yak has less angle this is maybe why.

yes that is what happens. But this is the only way to gain separation because if you take just a lower angle like 700 or 600 the yak is going to close the gap also. 

Let's just remember, that in real life Soviet aircrafts were poorly built .... not poorly designed, with some production a.c. being 40km.h slower than the prototype.... with huge differences between aircrafts from the same factory sometime !

So I guess, IRL Soviets pilots were more cautious....

What we have in BOS are the ideal plane of each type, with optimal performance, regardless of quality of contruction, and they have very few in common with aircraft on the frontline.

 

So you should stop comparing "IRL, real pilots said .... " it is a non sense.

 

Real units Yaks probably risked to disintegrate over 650 km/h , I guess developer have data about prototypes or pre production plane showing they could dive better... and this is the planes modeled in game....

Yes and they use to polish the wings with wax for the test etc.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

What compression are you talking about?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

Sorry maybe it is the wrong word... I am talking about structural deformation of the wing due to air pressure which usually sets on with Vne. I suppose that the wooden surfaces and structures are more prone to deformation (not saying anything about stability!) than their aluminum counterparts. This should lead to aerodynamic inefficiencies first and then flutter...

 

AFAIK the difference between wood and metal deformation is not modeled.

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

 

I suppose that the wooden surfaces and structures are more prone to deformation (not saying anything about stability!) than their aluminum counterparts.

 

I would not assume this is the case.  Yes there were productions problems that caused some Yaks to start peeling at speed but I have never seen any references to warping if the wing stays together.  It did have a steel frame.     

Someone else said that worries over construction defects would have led to Russian pilots being more cautious about staying within recommended limits but in most cases Russian pilots got *more* out of their aircraft than the handbooks would suggest because they ignored the limits :-)

[303_Kwiatek]

And many of then dead during accidents. VVS planes got serious restrictred in manuals regarding max dive speeds even at the end of war. LA5Fn and Yak3 got only 650 kph IAS and there were serious accidents during dives over these limits. Thats why German or Finish pilots said that VVS pilots didnt like to dive with them. I think all planes in BOS got too wide speed margin over manual limit expecially then at higher alts limits were much less then in manual but in game stay the same. I think 50 kph more for all planes above manual value with caution range started above limit will be still enough. Rembemer that plane with limit for ex. 750 kph IAS at low alt got much less at higher altitude.

[Dakpilot]

There were various production quality issues, they are very well recorded, which factories and series, wing panel separation etc. Yak 3 wing mountings being incorrectly fitted (with big hammer in that case, yep seriously!) poor glue on Lagg-3

 

But these were well documented cases, and issues were usually fixed in plus/minus two weeks, or they got sent to the gulags for sabotaging war effort, Yakovlev had audience with Stalin himself over some early Yak-1 production quality issues, it was sorted very quickly!

 

wings and tails fell off various 109's at certain times in series development, these issues were also fixed

 

huge amount of speculation/BS being talked about here, did Mosquito wings deform at dive speed? top panels of Hornet wings were wood, one of the fastest post war piston aircraft, later 109, 262 and 190 had large parts made of wood, did they regularly fall off?

 

people also need to give some thought to Time Speed and Distance realities when trying to dive away at 2000-3000M Alt

 

pretty sure the compressibility that is not modelled is mach No. compressibility at lower than transonic speeds

 

http://help.autodesk.com/cloudhelp/2014/ITA/SimCFD/files/GUID-620F44CE-9506-4C48-9E9C-6C689345B008.htm

 

Flutter is modelled, that is why you lose ailerons at certain speeds

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

pretty sure the compressibility that is not modelled is mach No. compressibility at lower than transonic speeds

 

No its is not AFAIK. And they specifically stated that

Edited January 10, 2018 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[LukeFF]

I guess developer have data about prototypes or pre production plane showing they could dive better... and this is the planes modeled in game....

 

Oh my word...let's put this misconception to rest already:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/8379-190-109-climb-rates/?view=findpost&p=141717

 

and

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4817-developer-diary-part-57/?view=findpost&p=98818

 

thats not true, all VVS airplanes modelled correspondingly to serial production machines control tests by NII VVS/LII VVS.

 

as about serial production differences - we use official German data for German airplanes, and official Russian tests of serial production airplanes (mostly NII VVS) for Russian airplanes.

 

Thats why German or Finish pilots said that VVS pilots didnt like to dive with them.

 

That's what they believed was the reason why they didn't dive with Axis planes. It doesn't necessarily mean it was the real reason why. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by LukeFF

[Dakpilot]

From Soviet 'Combat' manual

 

11. За пикирующим самолетом не гнаться, лучше оставаться наверху и бить противника сверху после выхода его из пикирования, или в верхней части горки, если противник закончит выход из пикирования горкой.

 

 

 

 

google translate

 

11. During the diving plane not chase, better to stay on top and beat the opponent on top of him after the dive, or the top of the hill, if the opponent has finished out of the dive slide.

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

[III/JG2Gustav05]

not surprised,  combat manual is composed based on AC's capability.

Edited January 11, 2018 by III/JG2Gustav05

[ICDP]

 

From Soviet 'Combat' manual

 

11. За пикирующим самолетом не гнаться, лучше оставаться наверху и бить противника сверху после выхода его из пикирования, или в верхней части горки, если противник закончит выход из пикирования горкой.

 

vvs 109 tactic.gif

 

 

 

google translate

 

11. During the diving plane not chase, better to stay on top and beat the opponent on top of him after the dive, or the top of the hill, if the opponent has finished out of the dive slide.

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

 

You are doing exactly what they are doing by taking one potential reason and applying it as a general rule.  Combat manuals were written with specific aircraft limitations in mind.

 

There are plenty of flight test reports where VVS planes were clearly inferior in a dive to Bf109.  The problem is that some here assume it means point the nose down in Bf109 or Fw190 = instant escape from Yak or LaGG.  The truth is unless both fighters were already at near vax level speed, it would take ages to gain separation.  In fact if you begin a dive at say 250KPH, a lighter plane with better PW ratio will gain during the initial part of the dive.  Think Yak vs 190, or Fw190 vs P47.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_versus_FW-190.pdf

Read the diving comparison of the P47 vs Fw190 here.  Both aicraft entered a dive at 250mph from 10,000 ft, the Fw190 pulled away reapidly at the start and it took the the P47 7,000ft of altitude to catch up and pass the 190.  Yet every single WWII flight sim enthusiast knows the P47 is the best diver.  Truth is context matters.

 

If a 109 pilot gets into a slow turnfight at 250kph with a Yak at 2500m and realises he's going to lose and dives for the deck.  He's going to be within the Yaks gun range all the way to the deck.

 

Start at 250KPH at 2500m and dive at 45 degree (give or take).

Doing this at full power it takes about 20 seconds in each plane to reach ground level.  By this time a 109 is doing ~770KPH and a Yak 1 about 740KPH (give or take).  I have no problems believing this to be accurate.

 

So at the end of the dive there is a 30KPH speed difference in favour for the 109.

 

30kph = 500metres per mintue, divide by 3 for our 20 seconds dive time = 160 metres separation but only after 20 seconds.  This puts our 109 well inside gun range of the Yak 1 for a very long time.  Even if you double the speed advantage you will be at best gain 300m of separation and that is still in gun range.

Edited January 11, 2018 by ICDP

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

It also should not work if the diving aircraft does not come back up, but rather extends away with the speed gained in the extended dive in comparison to the chasing aircraft.

[303_Kwiatek]

If VVS planes were enough strenghtened to reach higher diving speeds surly we would see these in manuals. They rised only 25 kph in La Series from 625 kph up to 650 kph in La5Fn on 1944 Yaks stay at 650 kph. Its mean that they had problem with guarantire safetly at higher speeds. Laggs 3 even in 43 got restriction at 600 kph or even 550 kph. Individual test didnt changed whole situation. If all series planes would be streghtened to more speed in dive surly we would see these in manuals. For me is obviously that VVS got some problems with planes in higher speed dives to push the limits more. It could be flutter problems or airframe or wings strenght (skin)

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[Dakpilot]

You are doing exactly what they are doing by taking one potential reason and applying it as a general rule.  Combat manuals were written with specific aircraft limitations in mind.

 

There are plenty of flight test reports where VVS planes were clearly inferior in a dive to Bf109.  The problem is that some here assume it means point the nose down in Bf109 or Fw190 = instant escape from Yak or LaGG.  The truth is unless both fighters were already at near vax level speed, it would take ages to gain separation.  In fact if you begin a dive at say 250KPH, a lighter plane with better PW ratio will gain during the initial part of the dive.  Think Yak vs 190.

 

If a 109 pilot gets into a slow turnfight at 250kph with a Yak at 2500m and realises he's going to lose and dives for the deck.  He's going to be within the Yaks gun range all the way to the deck.

 

 

Fully agree, but I have come across these general instructions many times, they are reference for Lagg/Yak/Cobra/La and would suggest a general doctrine, there are long discussions of various matchups, but this point 11. is in the overall conclusions/tips

 

They exist as historical doc so I just post the info for reference

 

http://wio.ru/tacftr/ww2p1.htm

 

303_KwaiteK, it would be useful if you state your sources for 550kph limit of Lagg and others, many of the 'crude' manuals of 44 also give info on M105, P and PA which are very out of date,  

 

VVS fighters in dive lose ailerons considerably earlier than Luftwaffe aircraft, most of the issues that people 'see' in game are as ICDP says above or explained in this thread

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/33515-how-outdive-yak-109/?do=findComment&comment=558910

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[=RvE=Windmills]

It also should not work if the diving aircraft does not come back up, but rather extends away with the speed gained in the extended dive in comparison to the chasing aircraft.

 

If it doesn't come back then it has also left the attackers it was escorting, or the area it was covering as well as its allies that are probably still in the fight are now a plane down.

 

I remember reading an anecdote (think in black cross/red star) about an inexperienced soviet pilot who decided to chase a German that dived away. While he did shoot him down eventually, the consequence was him leaving his wingman who was immediately set upon by the remaining Germans as he was now solo. He was chastised for the irresponsibility of him chasing that German and the victory did not redeem that.

 

Also remember reading that it wasn't uncommon for the Germans to dive in an attempt to drag away any eager Soviet pilots from their objective, splitting up formations and making for easier individual targets. This being the perception from the Soviet side of things, you weren't supposed to fall for these things as an experienced pilot. The mission is what mattered, not the possibility of adding to your personal kill count.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Windmills

[ZachariasX]

 

From Soviet 'Combat' manual

 

11. За пикирующим самолетом не гнаться, лучше оставаться наверху и бить противника сверху после выхода его из пикирования, или в верхней части горки, если противник закончит выход из пикирования горкой.

google translate

 

11. During the diving plane not chase, better to stay on top and beat the opponent on top of him after the dive, or the top of the hill, if the opponent has finished out of the dive slide.

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

I'm sure the grandson of that guy who came up with this "mitigation" regarding planes braking up when fast, is now writing Intel tech bulletins.

[Dakpilot]

I'm sure the grandson of that guy who came up with this "mitigation" regarding planes braking up when fast, is now writing Intel tech bulletins.

 

LOL

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

303_KwaiteK, it would be useful if you state your sources for 550kph limit of Lagg and others, many of the 'crude' manuals of 44 also give info on M105, P and PA which are very out of date,

 

Here You got all needed manual.  For Lagg3 from 43 year ( with M105 PF engine) for La5 ( 1943) , for LA5 FN ( 1944) and Yak-3. 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/235-real-ww2-pilots-manuals-thread/

 

 

So fact is that from LA5 ( Lagg3) from 1942 up to 1944 ( La5 FN)  maximum allowed speed rised only from 625 kph up to 650 kph IAS  which isnt fenomenal succes. Surly VVS made several max dive speeds if they rised maximum allowed speed but definitly they stil have problem to quarantire much higher speeds.  650 kph IAS in 1944 for Yak-3 or other Yaks and La5 FN isnt really good result. Even Polish fighter  PZL P-11 ( all metal consturction, contols cover also metal)  from 1933 got maximum allowed dive speed 696 kph IAS in manual

Pokryshkin VVS ace didnt want to fly VVS planes until end of war even it was many time advised to do these. Pokryshkin didnt trust VVS constructions ( some of his friends died beacuse of these) and his tactic was similar to German aces -  got alt adventage over opponent and dive for him at high speed. He trusted much more his P-39 Cobra which gave him much better safetly in his tactic then VVS planes.

 

Case is clear to me if VVS fabric tested and reached safetly higher dive speeds for their planes we surly would see these in rising maximum speeds in manuals. There was combat machines not turistic ones so why you should forbiden your pilot to dive on or with opponent with higher speeds if you know that they could do it safetly? So if VVS planes could safetly dive for 700 or 750 kph IAS we surly would see these in manuals.  Fact is that we see only max 650 kph at the late state of war so VVS fabric didnt quarantire safetly above these speed.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[ICDP]

If VVS planes were enough strenghtened to reach higher diving speeds surly we would see these in manuals. They rised only 25 kph in La Series from 625 kph up to 650 kph in La5Fn on 1944 Yaks stay at 650 kph. Its mean that they had problem with guarantire safetly at higher speeds. Laggs 3 even in 43 got restriction at 600 kph or even 550 kph. Individual test didnt changed whole situation. If all series planes would be streghtened to more speed in dive surly we would see these in manuals. For me is obviously that VVS got some problems with planes in higher speed dives to push the limits more. It could be flutter problems or airframe or wings strenght (skin)

 

According to the The 109G2 manual, dive speed limit is 750 kph up to 3,000m, yet in BOX it will reach ~920kph before losing parts.  By contrast the Yak 1 s69 starts losing parts at ~750kph and LaGG 3 at around 820kph.  In general fighters in BOX are getting around 150kph higher dive speeds than recorded in flight manuals.

 

We can't complain about VVS dive speeds if we ignore the Bf109 reaching 920kph instead of 750kph.

Edited January 11, 2018 by ICDP

[303_Kwiatek]

For Lagg3 ( 1943)

 

 

ПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ .ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЁТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЁТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М- 105П и М-105ПФ

ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО НАРОДНОГО КОМИССАРИАТА ОБОРОНЫ 1943

 

УПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

УТВЕРЖДАЮ Главный инженерВВС
Красной Армии генерал-полковник инженерно авиационной
службы РЕПИН
10 июля 1943 г.

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЕТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЕТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М-105П в М-105ПФ

 

 

 

Пикирование

107. Ввод в пикирование производить с разворота или переворота при работе мотора на средних оборотах.
Не допускать обратных перегрузок при вводе в пикирование во избежание отлива масла и бензина в системах.
Ввод в пикирование с горки запрещается.
Перед вводом в пикирование убедиться, что шасси поднято — горят красные лампочки, и механические указатели полностью вошли в крыло. Затяжелить винт до 2200—2300 об/мин.
Не допускать при пикировании скорости более 600 км/час по прибору и раскрутки винта свыше 2800 об/мин. На самолетах, не имеющих балансиров на руле направления, скорость пикирования не должна превышать 550 км/час во избежание появления флаттера.
При раскрутке винта до 2800 об/мин необходимо выводить самолёт из пикирования.
Пикирует самолёт устойчиво. При стремлении самолёта увеличить угол или выйти из пикирования сбалансировать самолёт триммером руля высоты.
Выводить самолёт из пикирования плавно.
При пикировании под углом 60° и достижении скорости 600 км1час по прибору самолёт при выводе теряет 1400 м высоты.

 

 

[ICDP]

For Lagg3 ( 1943)

 

 

ПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ .ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЁТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЁТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М- 105П и М-105ПФ

ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО НАРОДНОГО КОМИССАРИАТА ОБОРОНЫ 1943

 

УПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

УТВЕРЖДАЮ Главный инженерВВС

Красной Армии генерал-полковник инженерно авиационной

службы РЕПИН

10 июля 1943 г.

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЕТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЕТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М-105П в М-105ПФ

 

 

 

Пикирование

107. Ввод в пикирование производить с разворота или переворота при работе мотора на средних оборотах.

Не допускать обратных перегрузок при вводе в пикирование во избежание отлива масла и бензина в системах.

Ввод в пикирование с горки запрещается.

Перед вводом в пикирование убедиться, что шасси поднято — горят красные лампочки, и механические указатели полностью вошли в крыло. Затяжелить винт до 2200—2300 об/мин.

Не допускать при пикировании скорости более 600 км/час по прибору и раскрутки винта свыше 2800 об/мин. На самолетах, не имеющих балансиров на руле направления, скорость пикирования не должна превышать 550 км/час во избежание появления флаттера.

При раскрутке винта до 2800 об/мин необходимо выводить самолёт из пикирования.

Пикирует самолёт устойчиво. При стремлении самолёта увеличить угол или выйти из пикирования сбалансировать самолёт триммером руля высоты.

Выводить самолёт из пикирования плавно.

При пикировании под углом 60° и достижении скорости 600 км1час по прибору самолёт при выводе теряет 1400 м высоты.

 

We've already established dive speed for ALL fighters in BOS are above what is written in actual flight manuals.  BOS gives some leeway to allow for "unpublished" safety margins.

 

Test pilots would dive these fighters to much higher speeds than the eventual published manuals would recommend.  A LaGG 3 may have a published recommended dive speed of 600kph, while in reality during TSAGI tests it might have reached 700-750kph before the pilot backed off.

 

We cannot be asking for LaGG 3s to break up at 600kph "cus manual says so" while ignoring the fact the 109 is reaching 170kph higher than the recommended max dive speed.

 

Honestly I find the dive speed margin to be fair accross the board.

Edited January 11, 2018 by ICDP

[303_Kwiatek]

According to the The 109G2 manual, dive speed limit is 750 kph up to 3,000m, yet in BOX it will reach ~920kph before losing parts.  By contrast the Yak 1 s69 starts losing parts at ~750kph and LaGG 3 at around 820kph.  In general fighters in BOX are getting around 150kph higher dive speeds than recorded in flight manuals.

 

We can't complain about VVS dive speeds if we ignore the Bf109 reaching 920kph instead of 750kph.

 

 

From BOS specification G-2 max allowed is 850 kph not 920 kph which is still too high regarding IAS.

 

If You would read what i wrote before here in these topic you shoud know that i wrote that all planes should have more restricted max dive speeds in BOS.  It surly is need much more complex system which could work with TAS not IAS or restrticed IAS depend of alt. If not some compromise are needed so i think 50 kph more then manual of any plane state would be really enough expecially if we take that at higher alts maximum allowed dive speeds for IAS were much less then at low alt ( for all planes).  So good think would be caution range after pass IAS from manual of any plane  ( so abrupt control movement would casue damages) and 50 kph IAS safetly buffor would be enough before planes broke.

 

Ex.

 

Bf 109   750 kph IAS from manual -     750 kph + 50 kph caution range = max allowed 800 kph

La5   625 kph IAS from manual  - 625 kph + 50 kph caution range = max allowed 675 kph

La5FN  650 kph IAS from manual - 650 kph + 50 = max allowed 700 kph

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[303_Kwiatek]

Test pilots would dive these fighters to much higher speeds than the eventual published manuals would recommend. A LaGG 3 may have a published recommended dive speed of 600kph, while in reality during TSAGI tests it might have reached 700-750kph before the pilot backed off.

 

You think a little why if VVS tested planes reached 700 kph IAS or 750 kph IAS with easy they didnt allowed their pilots in manuals to do it. These planes were warbrids which should go for extreme to be more effective against enemy not touristic planes.  Maximum speeds from VVS manuals even at late state of war is only 650 kph IAS  ( LA5FN, all Yaks ) not 700 IAS or 750 IAS?  Why? Casue they know that there were several problems and accidents above speed stated in manual.

 

As i said even absolete Polish PZL P-11 from 1933 got in manual safetly 696 kph IAS - beacase it was tested and proved that planes could handle these speed safetly. 

 

VVS didn't quarantire safetly above values from manuals.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

Lo and behold: I agree with Kwiatek. A 50-75 km/h "caution range" seems reasonable, and would mean that you actually have to take care during a dive (same as you have to do in RoF)

[ICDP]

You think a little why if VVS tested planes reached 700 kph IAS or 750 kph IAS with easy they didnt allowed their pilots in manuals to do it. There was warbrids which should go for extreme to be more effective against enemy not touristic planes.  Maximum speeds from VVS manuals even at late state of war is only 650 kph IAS  ( LA5FN, all Yaks ) not 700 IAS or 750 IAS?  Why? Casue they know that there were several problems and accidents above speed stated in manual.

 

As i said even absolete Polish PZL P-11 from 1933 got in manual safetly 696 kph IAS - beacase it was tested and proved that planes could handle these speed safetly. 

 

VVS didn't quarantire safetly above values from manuals.

 

Not once did I say they reached 750 kph easy, just that in BOS safety margins are added to both LW and VVS fighters.  I agree it should be reduced from the existing ~150 kph to around 50kph, or maybe 75kph.

Edited January 11, 2018 by ICDP

[303_Kwiatek]

Interesting is that Lagg3 from manual need 1400 m for recovery from dive at maximum allowed speed 600 kph.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[Dakpilot]

For Lagg3 ( 1943)

 

 

ПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ .ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЁТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЁТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М- 105П и М-105ПФ

ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО НАРОДНОГО КОМИССАРИАТА ОБОРОНЫ 1943

 

УПРАВЛЕНИЕ ВОЕННЫХ ВОЗДУШНЫХ СИЛ КРАСНОЙ АРМИИ

УТВЕРЖДАЮ Главный инженерВВС

Красной Армии генерал-полковник инженерно авиационной

службы РЕПИН

10 июля 1943 г.

ИНСТРУКЦИЯ ЛЕТЧИКУ

ПО ЭКСПЛОАТАЦИИ И ТЕХНИКЕ ПИЛОТИРОВАНИЯ

САМОЛЕТА ЛАГГ-3

С МОТОРОМ М-105П в М-105ПФ

 

 

 

Пикирование

107. Ввод в пикирование производить с разворота или переворота при работе мотора на средних оборотах.

Не допускать обратных перегрузок при вводе в пикирование во избежание отлива масла и бензина в системах.

Ввод в пикирование с горки запрещается.

Перед вводом в пикирование убедиться, что шасси поднято — горят красные лампочки, и механические указатели полностью вошли в крыло. Затяжелить винт до 2200—2300 об/мин.

Не допускать при пикировании скорости более 600 км/час по прибору и раскрутки винта свыше 2800 об/мин. На самолетах, не имеющих балансиров на руле направления, скорость пикирования не должна превышать 550 км/час во избежание появления флаттера.

При раскрутке винта до 2800 об/мин необходимо выводить самолёт из пикирования.

Пикирует самолёт устойчиво. При стремлении самолёта увеличить угол или выйти из пикирования сбалансировать самолёт триммером руля высоты.

Выводить самолёт из пикирования плавно.

При пикировании под углом 60° и достижении скорости 600 км1час по прибору самолёт при выводе теряет 1400 м высоты

 

 

The restriction on dive limits to 550kph is for Very early Lagg without balances on rudder due to potential flutter,

 

these are outdated restrictions on early series (1941?), in these manuals for the aircraft, it is also noted by inclusion of early engines, not used by 43 as per date of manual, also these are more general handling than a stated VNE

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited January 11, 2018 by Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

And with balanced only 600 kph IAS.  LA5 from 1942 only improved for 620 kph IAS and LA5 FN from 1944 only improved for 650 kph IAS. 

 

LA5 FN 1944 ( translated for english)

 

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&file=print&kid=507&page=1

 

 

Yak-3

 

http://wio.ru/yak3/yak-pilot.htm

 

 

DIVE

Before entering the dive, balance the airplane in a horizontal flight with a height trimmer at a speed of 350 km / h on the instrument.
To make a dive with the elevator trimmer, set to the position,
corresponding to the balancing of the aircraft at a speed of less than 300 km / h, not
it is recommended, since in this case, when diving to speeds exceeding 400 km / h,
a significant kabiruyuschy moment and to keep the aircraft in a dive must be applied
to the control stick a lot of effort from yourself. If you do not provide countermeasures, the aircraft
sharply out of the dive with excessively large overloads.
Entering into the dive is made from a turn or a coup, not allowing
reverse overloads, to avoid oil pressure drop.
Diving can be performed at any angle with both gas and
without gas, to the speed at the conclusion of not more than 650 km / h on the device.
To ensure that the speed at the conclusion does not exceed 650 km / h, the inference from
dive at an angle of 45-60 ° begin at a speed of not more than 620-630
km / h, and at an angle of 70-80 ° - at a speed of no more than 600 km / h on the device.
Output from the dive, regardless of speed, produce a smooth movement of the handle on itself.
With an active selection of the handle at high dive speeds, significant
overload, with an active selection of the handle at low dive speeds, the aircraft swings from
wing on the wing and can break into a tailspin.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

Interesting is that Lagg3 from manual need 1400 m for recovery from dive at maximum allowed speed 600 kph.

 

I would guess you'd have a very large "caution range" for such a number. Misjudge by half a meter on that and you're dead. 

 

Probably for a pilot of normal physical strength it'd be something like 1000m allowing for all sorts of eventualities (lack of strength, partial loss of consciousness, not knowing the exact altitude above ground) by advising pilots to start pulling out at 1400m.

[Dakpilot]

Kwaitek...You clearly implied this was for 1943 Lagg-3 even when you know it is for much earlier model

 

no point in sensible discussion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

Interesting is also that in all VVS planes there is forbiden to dive dircetly casue of high drop oil preassure. In mauals stays that dive should be from turn or half roll.

Kwaitek...You clearly implied this was for 1943 Lagg-3 even when you know it is for much earlier model

 

no point in sensible discussion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

I implied what?  These from original manual 1943 year for Lagg with M 105P and M 105 PF engines.  LA5 got only 625 kph in manual so whats is such strange here?

 

La5 FN from 1944

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[Dakpilot]

 Laggs 3 even in 43 got restriction at 600 kph or even 550 kph. Individual test didnt changed whole situation. If all series planes would be streghtened to more speed in dive surly we would see these in manuals. For me is obviously that VVS got some problems with planes in higher speed dives to push the limits more. It could be flutter problems or airframe or wings strenght (skin)

 

 

Kwaitek...You clearly implied this was for 1943 Lagg-3 even when you know it is for much earlier model

 

no point in sensible discussion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Max_Damage]

not surprised,  combat manual is composed based on AC's capability.

More like because diving and giving chase is a bad idea. Leaves you vulnerable for gang and you lose your wingmen which wont help you anymore. its ok to die 10 times on wol but not so much irl.

 

Later into the war the germans pretty much relied on ganging single and wounded planes.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Max_Damage

[303_Kwiatek]

303_Kwiatek, on 11 Jan 2018 - 13:13, said: Laggs 3 even in 43 got restriction at 600 kph or even 550 kph. Individual test didnt changed whole situation. If all series planes would be streghtened to more speed in dive surly we would see these in manuals. For me is obviously that VVS got some problems with planes in higher speed dives to push the limits more. It could be flutter problems or airframe or wings strenght (skin) Dakpilot, on 11 Jan 2018 - 14:43, said: Kwaitek...You clearly implied this was for 1943 Lagg-3 even when you know it is for much earlier model no point in sensible discussion Cheers Dakpilot

 

I clearly impled that

 

LAgg3 from 1943 with balanced controls  - max 600 kph IAS from manual,  La5 ( 1942) - max 625 kph IAS from manual,  LA5 FN ( 1944) - max 650 kph IAS from manual,  Yak-3 (1944)  - max 650 kph IAS from manual  etc,   Polish PZL P-11 ( 1939) -  696 kph IAS from manual etc. etc.  

 

Definitly VVS got problems with their planes at high speed dives if in manuals there were restriction only for 650 IAS even at late state of war ( 1944) . I wonder LA7 from 1945.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek

[unreasonable]

More like because diving and giving chase is a bad idea. Leaves you vulnerable for gang and you lose your wingmen which wont help you anymore. its ok to die 10 times on wol but not so much irl.

 

Later into the war the germans pretty much relied on ganging single and wounded planes.

 

I very much agree - at least it is a bad idea to try to deduce technical characteristics from reports of tactical usage or even manuals of tactical doctrine, unless the technical reason for some recommendation is explicitly stated.  There are simply too many other variables.

 

A simple example: (IIRC from my books) late in the war German tank commanders were instructed not to open fire at ranges over 500m.  One might deduce that the German guns were incapable of penetrating UK/US/SU armour at longer ranges: but this would be completely wrong. They were simply trying to optimize the use of their diminishing ammunition stocks.