why not Africa?

[Gambit21]

Can you actually back it up ?

 

Of course he can't.

It's bull puckey just like most of his typing in this thread.

[Gambit21]

They keep mentioning 109s because it's very trendy on here to be an arrogant prick and constantly look down upon people who like to fly Luftwaffe, and it strengthens their argument if they overlook the scads of Allied aircraft we'd be getting in, say, a tactical 1943/44 scenario.

 

I'm not sure if I'm one of the "arrogant pricks" that you're referring to, but I haven't seen anyone on the "PTO" side of things engage in any behavior (including myself) that deserves such language.

For my part, I'm very fond of the 109, especially the E...one of my favorite rides from the old sim as well.

 

I'm just of the position that the greater variety of aircraft, the better...both Allied and Axis.

I understand that the Med brings a lot to the table, more than I'm aware of even.

That said the Devs are not going there...so this is all moot.

 

You guys have to realize that our interest is only part of the equation.

The developer's interest, and especially what 1C is interested in financing lays a huge part in what we see announced/delivered.

I certainly wouldn't want to grind away for years on something that doesn't interest me much, nor would I want to finance something that either doesn't interest me, or that I see

another team developing in the same market.

 

So Africa is dead, and has been dead on several levels for some time now.

That's just how it is, and again I'm not without empathy for those who were hoping for Africa above all else.

 

We have Kuban on the way...and that release is going to be EPIC...that map and plane set has so much to offer.

I could stay busy on that map flying and making missions for quite a long time, even if the sim just ended there.

 

It's all good, we're going to have fun.

Some of you that think you're not going to have fun with PTO have an other thing coming I think.

 

Also opcode, I don't see landing/spawing in carriers being a problem.

It never was before in CoOps...Air Quake rooms maybe....

Edited May 16, 2017 by Gambit21

[Gambit21]

Agreed, But I like earlier even better SCW is my favourite period of aviation

The earlier it is, the more visceral the feeling of flight IMHO, the more ragged the aircraft are, more noise...just more 'visceral' like I said.

This why I want the Storch and Po-2 as well.

Hard to put my finger on it...the I16 does this for me, and I used to love flying it through hills of Kuban in the old sim.

Looking forward to revisiting that here.

 

I'd love to see P-47's etc in a tactical Normandy release, but early war is where my heart truly sits.

109E's, P-40's, Oscars, Zekes, Wildcats, I16, Mig3, Yak, Hurricane, etc. etc.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Gambit21

[TP_Silk]

Don't take this wrong Gambit, and please believe me that I'm not singling you out, but replying to your point about being interested in early war above, but early war IS Africa on so many levels. For us Brits the early war was the fall of France, the Italian attack on British forces in North Africa in 1940. For us the early war was the period before December 1941 when the United Stated entered the war following the attack on Pearl Harbour. For us everything that happened in the Pacific Theatre was mid to late war. OK, I absolutely cede the fact that the earliest clashes in what eventually became WW2 were (arguably) the Spanish Civil War 1936-39), the Japanese attacks against Manchuria (1931-32) and China(1937-45) and Nazi aggressive expansion into Czechoslovakia and Austria (1939) and that many of these occurred in the Far East. The fact still remains that as far as the United Kingdom is concerned war with Gemany was declared on 3 September 1939, a full two years before the US joined the war.

 

I started to write more at this point, but realised that to do so would likely just sound bitter and twisted and as if I have a chip on my shoulder. I don't. I just want to point out that what is early war to one nation is not the same to another in terms of the history of the conflict that became known as World War 2

 

To finish I want to restate what I have said before. I will likely follow where this franchise takes us, but I am bitterly disappointed that they have chosen to ignore what was for this nation the turning point of the whole war in favour of giving it to an outdated and widely unloved predecessor. Winston Churchill stressed the importance of the North African campaign when he said "Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat!" By all means do Battle of Midway, but don't stay there - go somewhere else - Give us Africa, Malta, Italy, India/Burma, China. There are so many interesting theatres and battles that this franchise could cover that to stay in any one area for a protracted time - well, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anyway, I hope that this can be seen as an impassioned post in favour of my way of thinking rather than any kind of attack on what other people think. I am a great believer in equality of opinion and in respecting other people's opinions, but in still making one's point when it appears warranted. If anyone takes any offence at my stated opinions and  above, then please feel free to ignore it. 

PS - I love to argue my point while trying to keep it all civil and  respectful. I hope nobody minds

[Gambit21]

I get it Silk, (early war/Africa) etc.

[Grancesc]

Can you actually back it up ? Because having your word now and having a quote above from Oleg himself, even despite all crap he said in his life, I'd take his word for this as he was a developer that simply sold it.

 

I remember it quite differently from that time and I also recall that game was bashed by reviewers and community primarily for its unfinished and rushed state with poor flight models of numerous aircraft and absence of others, like TBF or B6N meant there were no flyable torpedo planes. 

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

No, I can’t prove it was a failure but no one can argue the opposite in this forum. I know what Oleg said at the time. But what actually happened then looked more like a flop. We will probably never know how it was. Ace_Pilto's analysis below describes the occurrences of then quite well. The statements match well with what my colleagues and I experienced at the time. It should also be noted that the corresponding PTO add-on campaigns (made by 3^rd parties) were rather failures.

 

SvAF/F19_Klunk, on 22 Sept 2016 - 18:07, said:

 

What are u talking about? According to Oleg Pacific Fighters sold very well …

 

 

Ace_Pilto, on 23 September 2016, 05:22

 

It probably didn't sell that well because none of the content was adequately supported at release, Uncle Oleg just dumped a few Spitfire variants in along with some P-51's and P-47s that were only accessible through the QMB/FMB. It was years down the road before the community gave us a working Channel/Normandy/North Africa/Italy map, Dgen campaigns, skins etc. Pacific Fighters at least shipped with some (very basic) content so people could do something with the content straight out of the box beyond the bare bones QMB stuff.

 

You see this is one of the things I love about 1CGS, they take the time to at least ship a theater with some effort at making contextual content for their product (missions, campaigns, skins etc). It might not be the best content ever made and I disagree with some of the design decisions but it's definitely competent work despite my preferences and it reflects that the effort and the willingness is there on 1CGS's part to flesh out the game and commit some time and resources into creating an experience for the player that is decent value for money.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Grancesc

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Wait, so you cant prove it and you assume opposite claim cannot be made ? And we should take certain user quote over Oleg statement ? Pardon me, but based on my profession and logic your way of thinking is simply flat wrong.

 

In regard to quote itself, it doesnt even seem to be exactly related to sales of PF. Indeed there were various problems with Pacific Fighters, lacks during and after its release but its rather a faulty execution than flaw inherent to the concept of air war over Pacific. 

Press itself made it painfully clear that quality of the released expansion was below expectations :

Most of the new planes are practically impossible to stall when they are flown at full throttle, even if the stick is jerked all the way back or to the sides. Quick movements like that were enough to induce stalls in previous entries in this series, and players had to really work the stick to turn or loop efficiently without stalling in the process. All of the American naval fighters included in this package can loop indefinitely and turn indefinitely with full stick deflection throughout the entire maneuver. Some of the Japanese planes like the Val and Oscar also exhibit this behavior, ... Some of these planes, early Corsairs in particular, were notorious for their tricky handling, but in this sim it is possible to yank the stick in any direction until it stops, and you can maintain impossibly long turns and loops without bleeding off a lot of speed, all without worrying about stalling. This may be intentional, or it may be the by-product of having to tweak many of these planes to have terrific low-speed behavior for carrier landings, but it just doesn't feel like the IL-2 of the past.

 

This is a product that evidently shipped too soon and it badly needs a patch, although it is impossible to know if a mere update can fix all of the issues with the flight models, the dynamic campaign, and the suicidal AI. Until then, this is still the best way to get your PTO air combat fix, but it unfortunately marks the low point in an otherwise excellent series.

http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/pacific-fighters-review/1900-6111857/%C2%A0

 

While there's a nice variety of planes to fly here, the absence of flyable models of the Jill or the Avenger means that the game has no torpedo combat whatsoever. And this is a game about World War 2?

 

Though I liked IL-2 and its subsequent expansions, Pacific Fighters left me wanting more...and in a bad way. The wide variety of planes certainly have their historical performance characteristics but, overall, the flight modeling just isn't as tight as I expected. Add to that the lackluster content of the missions and some outright mistakes on the part of the artificial intelligence and you've got a game that barely scrapes by.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/11/05/pacific-fighters

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/pacific-fighters

 

I dont think that lower sales and rates of Pacific Fighters had much to do with theater itself, there certainly were disappointed fans of western front or north Africa or whatever else could be added in the day, but at the same time there were many guys waiting for this expansion. It was rather too rushed, lacking key elements like torpedo bombers and not adding much into mission variety. Poor flight models and suicidal Ai did not improve the situation. 

 

Besides, we already once went through this discussion of which I'm repeating myself now. But Featherhead as usual added something valuable and on point, as he said that certain failure was largely due to the game being leaked and pirated on torrents not long before its release. Oleg Maddox admitted that his team had monitored it, which resulted in finding a number in excess of 60,000 illegal downloads just in the first week. 

 

You may keep expressing your feelings, but I'm going to stick to the facts. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by =LD=Hiromachi

[Gambit21]

"Nevermind what Oleg said, some random user said the opposite! Also aside from that, no I can't prove anything but neither can you (aside from the producers' statement) therefore I'm correct!"

[VBF-12_Snake9]

That's what makes this thread fun. Lol

[Royal_Flight]

I get it Silk, (early war/Africa) etc.

What an arrogant response.

[Lusekofte]

 

 

- The PTO-module of the original IL-2 did not sell as well as some people want to make us believe.

 

The PTO was the absolute most popular theathre in the heydays of IL 2.

 

Maps from MTO came along later much later and still could not muster those numbers PTO collected. But why do we always have to put the theatres against eachother. I think this simulator, if it sells well will eventually have North Africa and the rest of Mediteranian.

We have to see how it goes, PTO is not yet confirmed, only the fact that if there is going to be a next one it is going to be PTO.

 

For my sake I would be happy for Spanish Civil War era.  

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

For my sake I would be happy for Spanish Civil War era.  

 

I heavily second this. The pre-war/early war times aren't heavily explored enough.

[TP_Silk]

What an arrogant response.

To be honest it wasn't that at all. It was just short and sweet because we've both expressed our opinions at length and respectfully to each other and have also been in contact via PM to make sure that there is no bad blood. I have no beef with Gambit and he has none with me.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

I heavily second this. The pre-war/early war times aren't heavily explored enough.

 

you want lightly armed , no armoured planes ?

Play Rise of Flight

 

and at least in the VOW COOP Event in IL2'46 , the Pacific front was the less liked one.

And we had three: Eastern, ETO/MTO and PTO

ETO/MTO was the most flown....................actually it depended also what planes were availabe in the missions/fronts :D

Edited May 17, 2017 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

you want lightly armed , no armoured planes ?

Play Rise of Flight

 

and at least in the VOW COOP Event in IL2'46 , the Pacific front was the less liked one.

And we had three: Eastern, ETO/MTO and PTO

ETO/MTO was the most flown....................actually it depended also what planes were availabe in the missions/fronts :D

 

Yes, I do. It really puts everything down to pilot skill. Every victory is earned.

 

I actually have a couple hundred hours in ROF but I don't fly it much anymore because the performance is so bad, even with my hardware.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I heavily second this. The pre-war/early war times aren't heavily explored enough.

Spanish Civil War or Khalkin Gol would make very interesting scenarios. Aircraft are slower, armed with machines guns only (except for a few I-16s that during Khalkin Gol were actually armed with 20 mm cannons), lacking protection ... sounds very appealing ! 

[Gambit21]

Hope against hope that sometime down the road RoF can enter the plan again and get an update.

That probably won't happen - but I'd pay for it in a heartbeat. I got tired of the AI spiral to the deck so stopped flying it when BoS came along.

 

16 plane fur balls were no problem in the performance department for me however...just that accursed spiral to the deck.

[Royal_Flight]

To be honest it wasn't that at all. It was just short and sweet because we've both expressed our opinions at length and respectfully to each other and have also been in contact via PM to make sure that there is no bad blood. I have no beef with Gambit and he has none with me.

That's grand then, if there's context between you then all's well. As a fellow Brit I agree with your thoughts on the War and recognition of the part that British forces played in it and maybe got a bit defensive when it looked like that was being brushed aside.

 

I'm looking forward to the Spitfire of course, but I would be all in favour of any move to a theatre where British and Commonwealth forces could be represented...

[Gambit21]

That's grand then, if there's context between you then all's well. As a fellow Brit I agree with your thoughts on the War and recognition of the part that British forces played in it and maybe got a bit defensive when it looked like that was being brushed aside.

I thought you were being ironic, as there was no possible way comment could be taken as arrogant or anything but genuine/friendly.

 

Just goes to show how easy it is to see what you want to see with the written word. Such is our challenge here - No worries.

[TP_Silk]

You know Gambit.... if we choose the middle ground we end up with........ Burma

 

Surely that's around half way between the PTO and MTO?

[Gambit21]

P-40's, Osars, Zero's,  Hurricanes,  Buffalos,  Blenheims...I'm in.

[Royal_Flight]

Just goes to show how easy it is to see what you want to see with the written word. Such is our challenge here - No worries.

The trouble with forums... all good now though.

I'll see you in the skies sure.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm all for early war scenarios, in fact I'd love to see a "what if war broke out in 1934?", or so, plane set.

 

There are so many fascinating aircraft that were fielded by the world's air forces in the interwar years, I think it would be a very interesting thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like fun to me.

[9./JG27DavidRed]

its true, the online community and the guys active on this forum are a minority...BUT...its these who keep a game alive...its mainly them who spread the word and use platforms like youtube and increase popularity of the game that way...im sure the devs look at the big picture as you say, and thats exactly the reason why multiplayer even exists, and why they continiously try to improve things like netcode and so on putting much effort into it. these man hours put into it, would not justify 0,2 increase of income as you try to put it...

 

also, while the forum guys are a minority, they are enough people to gather useful information and conclude a overall picture of the situation, thats probably the main reason this forum even exists...

 

oh and btw, calling out the JGs only, as you call them, is slightly arrogant and biased....another lufthater...sigh

Edited May 25, 2017 by 9./JG27DavidRed

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

So if something is "niche within a niche" it is you 0,1% JGs. 

 

 

The irony to that statement is that JGs, ZGs, etc. seem to heavily outweigh organized VVS squadrons. Per squad participation, JGs are in no way a minority and certainly not a niche... There is an apparent and obvious demand for expanding LW offerings from what appears to be a quasi-majority of active community participants on these forums.

 

I have always felt that the consumer of this product should consume said product however they would like: fly exclusively German, fly exclusively VVS, only fly fighters, only fly bombers, fly everything, fly everyone... Fly on the deck, fly in the stratosphere, prefer the East, prefer the West, prefer whatever... Without the discomposure of other consumers to meddle in how you choose to enjoy your 60USD+ investment.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

I have always felt that the consumer of this product should consume said product however they would like: fly exclusively German, fly exclusively VVS, only fly fighters, only fly bombers, fly everything, fly everyone... Fly on the deck, fly in the stratosphere, prefer the East, prefer the West, prefer whatever... Without the discomposure of other consumers to meddle in how you choose to enjoy your 60USD+ investment.

 

This!

 

I think PTO will be cool and all (although I would have personally preferred later war stuff like F6F or F4U etc) but I also think 3 times in a row is a bit much. I understand why they are doing it, but to me it just means I have to wait longer till I see something from the western front or Mediterannean in Il2. I really don't think 'DCS is doing west front so leave it alone' is a good argument either. I doubt DCS will do any more WW2 stuff than what has already been announced, and what is there seems to get buggier with every patch. There was a time when I hoped otherwise but I don't see DCS becoming 'the' ww2 sim anytime soon. Besides judging from the comments in the DD's the devs here seem to be confident that they have the best product out there. If they are gonna make comments like that I see no reason that they should shy away from a little competition.

 

Still I think it will be interesting to see how a non eastern front theatre shapes up in the new il2. Between that and all the announced FM updates I think the future is looking good here.

[JG7_RudeRaptor]

Cliffs of Dover is going there some time in this year. To have two sims working against each other in this department would likely be financial suicide and split the community.

 

 

It will split the community no matter.  It will split the current BOS,  DG servers into Eastern and Pacific.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

And any other front would not ? You would then have western Europe/Africa and eastern Europe server. Nature of expansion is diversification. It is simply unavoidable. 

But unlike with competition products, here people, even if they do not possess expansion, still can access those maps. 

[Feathered_IV]

Splitting a couple of hundred active MP players worldwide isn't going to matter much in the scheme of things.  Multiplying them is what's important.

[Lusekofte]

I do not think that this simulator going for MTO would affect COD , I switch a bit between the two and that got nothing to do with theatres.

I like COD for totally different reasons than the fact I like BOS. I think it is many of us having one feet in both camps, it would do no change if the two where to go on same theatres.

If this sim goes to Burma at some point, you pretty much have all the planes you need for a Africa campaign. I think it would be great. 

And I  think Burma is a much more clever way to go after Midway, Okinawa is just a too long timespan 

[unreasonable]

Splitting a couple of hundred active MP players worldwide isn't going to matter much in the scheme of things.  Multiplying them is what's important.

 

Cloning?

[JG7_RudeRaptor]

And any other front would not ? You would then have western Europe/Africa and eastern Europe server. Nature of expansion is diversification. It is simply unavoidable. 

But unlike with competition products, here people, even if they do not possess expansion, still can access those maps. 

 

From axis point of view, those fronts will still have 109, FW, JU and 110. That will not matter. Allies side...... maybe. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Well, if someone only looks at axis side than yeah. No matter what expansion one will still sit in 109/190 cockpit exclusively. But then why expand at all ? 

Try to take a notice of the point of view of the other side. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

You ask for much from them Hiromachi san.

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

Is not team fusion working on an add on for Cliff in Africa ala version 5.0?

 

Yes, yes they are.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Indeed they are sir.

[Haza]

That's grand then, if there's context between you then all's well. As a fellow Brit I agree with your thoughts on the War and recognition of the part that British forces played in it and maybe got a bit defensive when it looked like that was being brushed aside.

 

I'm looking forward to the Spitfire of course, but I would be all in favour of any move to a theatre where British and Commonwealth forces could be represented...

 

Gents,

 

Let's face it, owing to the fact that IL2 CLOD (even with North Africa) was about the RAF, IL2 BOS/BOM/BOK currently about VVS and with both against the Luftwaffe, I can not see an issue going with the Pacific.  Therefore, how can anybody even assume that the Brit or Luftwaffe part is being brushed aside with such a long period without the Yanks or Japanese?  I'm looking forward to Pacific as an opportunity to learn more about an area that had a lot of Brit and Commonwealth involvement and perhaps a lot more than most Europeans or Americans realise, however the War was not won by the RAF or the Commonwealth alone and certainly not by the Americans on their own!!  This is not a "Biggus Dickus" discussion and perhaps we should all remember before we start talking about aircraft being useless or not very good, that actual pilots and aircrew died flying the sub-standard aircraft until things got better, so lets not brush those who gave their lives aside.   Lets face it in CLOD most guys wouldn't even touch the Blenheim with a barge pole, however, I would challenge anybody to read about about the guys in Blenheims doing heroic day time raids at low level with no fighter cover.   

 

 

Regards

Edited May 30, 2017 by Haza

[jaydee]

Can we all just move on ? The MED Theatre is NOT going to happen ! (anytime soon). I would love to see it . We can wish and jump up and down all we like ! We can "Express our opinions" all we like. We can bicker and argue with each other all we like.

If anyone thinks the "Code" was given to TF without Conditions , they must have Rocks in their Heads... TF is Doing the Med. Get over it .

Why cant we Discuss what we KNOW is coming (Because the Devs Have Told us) and Look Forward ?

The Med CANT Happen at the moment !

~S~

[Daisy_Blossom]

I agree with jaydee. I can see the merits in many other theaters but at the same time there are many of us that are incredibly pumped for PTO. The naval aviation is easily my favorite part of WW2 and I'm so excited to see this beautiful sim head in that direction, especially with the great VR support!
 

Of course, I'll always keep my fingers crossed for RoF in VR  

 

[Gambit21]

It will split the community no matter.  It will split the current BOS,  DG servers into Eastern and Pacific.

 

Bah...there will be a whole new contingent of on-liners.

I'll come back online for Kuban, but the main event is PTO.

I plan on spending time in both places just like the old days, even if it's 80% PTO.

 

I've been hearing this "the sky is falling!" splitting the community stuff forever.

Like Feathered said, it's the multiplying of players that's the whole point here.