Landing the 109

[BlackArabian]

I'm no stranger to sims but the bouncing in the 109 seem way too much. I do expect a lot of bouncing if I slam on to the tarmac at a too high a descent but it seem I could be just 2 metre from the tarmac and flare to touch down on main gears when aircraft get sucked down on the runway instead of floating on to it.

Maybe its just more practice needed but I just need to know that, that's what it is and not the sim. I'm aware if alpha stage, I'm not really complaining.

Edited December 8, 2013 by BlackArabian

[HagarTheHorrible]

I think when the Dev's did some stick time in real aircraft (Yak 52's if I remember correctly) they expressed surprise at how much the aircraft's momentum would continue to move in a direction opposite to the one desired.  It might be, of course, that ground effect hasn't been implemented yet, but equally it might be that it hasn't been properly represented in other flight sims and it is only now that we have to start trying to pay more attention to landing, sink rate, descent angle etc ?

Edited December 8, 2013 by HagarTheHorrible

[II./JG27_Rich]

Too easy too hard just right ...on and on

[ll./JG77_JadeBandit]

I can land the 109 consistently with little issue, even managed to land once with my left wingtip shot off, that Lagg on the other hand is a beast to land and I always have a tuff time with it.

Edited December 9, 2013 by ScottyOnTheSpot

[SKG51_robtek]

Just dont be too fast (>170) and flare soon enough for a three pointer touch down at about 150 km/h.

A two wheel landing is harder as there is so much lift generated by the high speed.

[ll./JG77_JadeBandit]

In the 109 I usually come in at an angle in a shallow dive right before I touch down and it makes it pretty easy to get a 3 point landing since you bleed off so much speed. When I land the Lagg I have to take a much longer approach because I have difficulty getting it to sit down when I want it to without bouncing too much on contact.

[BlackArabian]

Suppose I'm looking for is details on flight characteristics and a VSI   

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I had very limited time to try out BoS this weekend, so I just had a few flights on normal difficulty. One question about that, am I correct that physics work the same way as there as on expert and the difference is in engine management + HUD and stuff like that? I mean, landing 109, is it the same on both, or is landing on normal easier than on expert?

[BlackArabian]

Well I just greased a landing with not even the slightest bounce, practice make's perfect, 

Now I know what the problem was I don't even need VSI.

Flight model beat anything is FSX hands down.

 

All is needed now is more feedback to Buttkicker as hit the tarmac. 

Edited December 9, 2013 by BlackArabian

[SKG51_Joker]

Now that video would be really helpful if flight informations (speed, altitude) would have been toggled on.

[Fifi]

I'm no stranger to sims but the bouncing in the 109 seem way too much. 

 

What is way too much for me, is the bouncing of the 109 tail wheel once rolling on tarmac after the touch down.

Try a record track positioning your camera sideway to the plane, and watch the tail wheel reaction!

Lagg tail wheel is also bouncing, but lot less.

 

Otherwise, at this 35% stage of release, main gear bouncing is all OK in regard of first update.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Ok witch way is the tail wheel locked? When the lever is. forward or backward. I land fine but it's always like I'm on a figure skater at the Olympics once I'm rolling down the strip.

[Panzerlang]

Locked = lever in forward position.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Yep I've been doing it bassakwards

[senseispcc]

The Bf109 is a Feather to land the Lagg is a heavy beast. All the secret is to find the angle of descend and the correct speed! Easy.  

Practice, a lot of practice is needed but you all can get there and for me it was easier in the expert mode.

 

Edited December 16, 2013 by senseispcc

[RAF74_Winger]

I do expect a lot of bouncing if I slam on to the tarmac at a too high a descent but it seem I could be just 2 metre from the tarmac and flare to touch down on main gears when aircraft get sucked down on the runway instead of floating on to it.

 

Try to three-point it instead. If you're wheeling it on, the rate of descent has to be extremely small and you will require some forward stick to arrest the bounce at exactly the time the mainwheels touch.

 

This is perfectly realistic by the way; tailwheel aircraft will bounce if you get it even slightly wrong.

 

W.

Edited December 18, 2013 by RAF74_Winger

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Ok witch way is the tail wheel locked? When the lever is. forward or backward. I land fine but it's always like I'm on a figure skater at the Olympics once I'm rolling down the strip.

You're not in skaters leotards when you do that right?  and ya I was doing backward too.

[ScotsmanFlyingscotsman]

Quax, Thank you for the video, It just proves I'm rubbish, A silver founder, just got access last night and managed to land the 109 after 3rd attempt, I was so pleased, having ripped off the wings.....the a wing fell off as I turned to taxi off (lol) 

I'm struggling with the 'on line' side having been an 'off liner' all my life.

So If anyone reading, was warming their engine when I started mine and the plane shot accross the taxi way into your revetment...sorry.

So I'll stick to bumps and circuits for a bit then try and move up to moving the taps and levers later.

I was with a Hurricane pilot (owner of Hurricane) a couple of years back when he was getting ready for his first flight.

He said he had practiced the cockpit hundreds of times, under the watchful eye of his instructor, but nothing prepared him for the power of the beast when it took him down the runway...thankfully his landing was better than mine

[dave9810]

I did some nice smooth landings earlier, touching down at 150, although the tail wheel would still bounce until <80

[ScotsmanFlyingscotsman]

Hi Dave9810,

                        I'll try that, coming in at 200kph seems a bit quick, Thanks

[Reflected]

Nice landing Quax!

 

Actually, I think that if you land as you should the bouncing is believable - maybe the tailwheel bounces a little too much. However, if you do a hard landing your plane bounces off high, when in reality your gears should collapse or something. So it's not the physics and the weight of the plane, more the lack of DM - I know it's very WIP - hence the bouncy landings. IMO those will be crashes in the final release. But this is just my opinion.

[DB605]

 

 

Actually, I think that if you land as you should the bouncing is believable - maybe the tailwheel bounces a little too much. However, if you do a hard landing your plane bounces off high, when in reality your gears should collapse or something. So it's not the physics and the weight of the plane, more the lack of DM - I know it's very WIP - hence the bouncy landings. IMO those will be crashes in the final release. But this is just my opinion.

 

+1

[Fifi]

Actually, I think that if you land as you should the bouncing is believable - maybe the tailwheel bounces a little too much. However, if you do a hard landing your plane bounces off high, when in reality your gears should collapse or something. So it's not the physics and the weight of the plane, more the lack of DM - I know it's very WIP - hence the bouncy landings. IMO those will be crashes in the final release. But this is just my opinion.

 

+2!

[Crump]

 

I'll try that, coming in at 200kph seems a bit quick, Thanks

 

 

In the Bf-109F series Operating Instructions, Vref (Landing reference speed) is 140/150 km/h IAS.

 

For the game, simply take the aircraft up and stall it a few times in landing configuration (flaps and gear down).  Note the speed it stalls at and multiply it by 1.3.

 

For Example:

 

 

115 km/h IAS stall * 1.3 = 150km/h IAS Vref

 

If we stall at 115 km/h Indicated Airspeed, then we should be stabilized at 150 km/h Indicated airspeed on final and carry that into ground effect/flare.

[ScotsmanFlyingscotsman]

Hi Crump & all watching my pathetic attempts to land in one piece, Yes I've managed it, but yes coming in too high too fast, breaking the fuselage with the bounce although I'm getting the hang of 'holding off' will try 150 kph and see if that works,

But keeping a 'logbook' so only 3 hours on type in this sim and thoroughly enjoying it...and venting my frustration on those Opel trucks...no points I'm sure but a lot of satsifaction LOL!

Thanks fella's for the advice

[Eagle-OnePirabee]

My landings on the Bf 109 have been atrocious to say the least. I would make my approach at 200km/h and then do a quick deceleration to about 180/190 before slamming to earth. On a few occasions Ive managed to pull it off somehow; except that trying to take off again has always resulted in leaving a detached wheel back on the airfield.

Above all, I'm learning not to aim my touchdowns for the earliest portion of the threshold. This has frequently landed me on the packed snow and possibly contributed to my pranging the landing. So, its gonna be 170km/h at approach, full flaps and I'll try to fixate on a third of the way down the runway before settling.

Fingers crossed now.

[SKG51_robtek]

In the Bf-109F series Operating Instructions, Vref (Landing reference speed) is 140/150 km/h IAS.

 

For the game, simply take the aircraft up and stall it a few times in landing configuration (flaps and gear down).  Note the speed it stalls at and multiply it by 1.3.

 

For Example:

 

 

115 km/h IAS stall * 1.3 = 150km/h IAS Vref

 

If we stall at 115 km/h Indicated Airspeed, then we should be stabilized at 150 km/h Indicated airspeed on final and carry that into ground effect/flare.

The 109 has to be rotated pretty much and looses airspeed then very fast, a approach with 170 km/h full flaps and gear will give you approximately

the mentioned 150 km/h in three point attitude for touch down when you cut the throttle just before rotating.

[andyw248]

I'm also not too sure that the BoS 109 stalls at 115 km/h. I thought it was more like 130 - 140, so the final approach speed would be around 175 km/h.

[Fifi]

 

 

PS: i hope the jumping tail gets a cure soon

 

Indeed! 

 

What is way too much for me, is the bouncing of the 109 tail wheel once rolling on tarmac after the touch down.

Try a record track positioning your camera sideway to the plane, and watch the tail wheel reaction!

Lagg tail wheel is also bouncing, but lot less.

 

[afluth]

What is way too much for me, is the bouncing of the 109 tail wheel once rolling on tarmac after the touch down.

Try a record track positioning your camera sideway to the plane, and watch the tail wheel reaction!

Lagg tail wheel is also bouncing, but lot less.

 

Otherwise, at this 35% stage of release, main gear bouncing is all OK in regard of first update.

 

 

Yeah, this video displays the tail bounce issue fairly well. I had the stick full-back after landing in this example.

[Fifi]

^^^^ That one precisely at 1.34 is way off, and needs to be adressed IMO.

[SKG51_robtek]

Especially as the 109 was tail heavy compared to almost all other fighters then.

[Kurfurst]

Thanks for the videos guys, I absolutely love the ground handling of the planes! The touchdown with the dampers at works is fantastic, even with the 109s tailwheel being modelled after a pogo, but I am sure they will fix that.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

By Mark Hanna

 

Once down on three points, it tends to stay down, but be careful; the forward view has gone to hell, and you cannot allow any swing to develop. Initial detection is more difficult- the aircraft being completely unpredictable-and can diverge in any direction. Sometimes the most immaculate three-pointer will turn in to a potential disaster halfway through the landing roll. Other times, a ropy landing will roll straight as an arrow!

 

FLYING THE Bf 109

 

When we started flying the 109, both my father and I did a lot of practice circuits on the grass before we tried a paved strip. Operating off grass is preferred. Although it is a much smoother ride on the hard surface-directionally-the aircraft is definitely more sensitive. Without doubt, you cannot afford to relax until you are stationary. You would never make a rolling exit from a runway in the 109

[andyw248]

^^^^ That one precisely at 1.34 is way off, and needs to be adressed IMO.

 

Could that jump at 1.34 have been caused by a sudden application of brakes?

 

These days we are all used to jetliners applying reverse thrust, speed brakes, and wheel brakes, all at the same time right after touch down. I haven't flown a taildragger myself, but I doubt taildragger pilots would do that, given the threat of a nose-over. I guess WWII pilots would rather have applied no brakes at all during the initial rollout, and then they would have applied brakes very carefully, and intermittently, once the aircraft had slowed down.

[Quax]

The 109 was designed for full brake landings on short fields. (CoG is farer behind the wheels than in most other WW2 fighters). They couldn´t do a nose over, when not hitting some hole or obstruction.

The tail wheel jump is a bug. If you do it right, half of the Lapino runway is more than enough. (as I tried to demonstrate in my two vids) Germans had to live with very short fields in the second half of the war.

(interesting described in Steinhoffs biography f.e.)

Edited January 2, 2014 by Quax