Can accessibility ruin a game?

[NewfieDunfielder]

I recently downloaded War Thunder. I found playing with a joystick was a really really big disadvantage. Players using mouse and keyboard will usually mess you up. While using a mouse they aren't actually flying so much as moving a pointer while the computer defies physics to point the guns at that spot. Meanwhile using a joystick you have to actually fly. And they make it so you all have to play together. Derp. I know we all hear about mouse and keyboard making a game accessible to more players but to give them the über advantages in WT is a load of crap. A steering wheel for racing games is way more expensive than a twist joystick. I don't think expecting people to have and use a 30 dollar peripheral is too much. Is accessibility ruining WT?

[ZachariasX]

You very soon spend more than $30 for peripherals for any decent combat sim.

 

But define "ruined". If you think of a combat sim the same as for Counterstrike, no, then it is not ruined.

 

WT is NOT a flight sim.

It is not even a combat flight sim.

It is a shooter and it hosts players who play shooters.

 

I still remember my shock when I first launched "Birds of Prey", thinking it was an improved IL-2 1946 and then I got THAT. I paid like $60 or so and I played for about 2 minutes, then cleaned it from my rig, never bothering again.

 

So, no, it is not ruined. WT is as much simulator as the good old archade scroller "1942".

[NewfieDunfielder]

Didn't it used to have a simulation mode? It is advertised as and apparently won simulation awards?

 

Now I know it isn't a sim but they sell it as one. Sure it's fun as long as you use the mouse.

But that's my point. They made it accessible and it became the call of duty of the air. As for what someone could spend on flight controls thats a moot point. A joystick is simple and cheap to have the basics of what's needed.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Dunfielder

[Thad]

I recently downloaded War Thunder. I found playing with a joystick was a really really big disadvantage. Players using mouse and keyboard will usually mess you up. While using a mouse they aren't actually flying so much as moving a pointer while the computer defies physics to point the guns at that spot. Meanwhile using a joystick you have to actually fly. And they make it so you all have to play together. Derp. I know we all hear about mouse and keyboard making a game accessible to more players but to give them the über advantages in WT is a load of crap. A steering wheel for racing games is way more expensive than a twist joystick. I don't think expecting people to have and use a 30 dollar peripheral is too much. Is accessibility ruining WT?

Salutations,

 

The same aiming and flying disparity between mouse pilots and joystick pilots is a big bone of contention in another game... Star Citizen.

[NewfieDunfielder]

I guess the real question is, if war thunder had made the game need a joystick, no mouse controls would it have been a better experience for sim players?

[ZachariasX]

I guess the real question is, if war thunder had made the game need a joystick, no mouse controls would it have been a better experience for sim players?

I guess it was made so that you could use it with a standard game controller. Making mouse controls from there is straight forward, but it means that you tossed the basic aerodynamic behaviour of the plane in the first place.

 

That it had a "simulation mode" is more marketing than else. The shooter folks want a shooter. Maybe they want diversity too, so you sell them a shooter called "combat sim". Assign stick axis to the mouse in BoX and see how happy you get.

 

What is a "good experience" depends largely on the clients expectations. And fact is, concerning flight and aircraft technology, 99% of all players are what is called uninformed cutomers, not knowing what they are getting and neither able to make a judgement about it. But in WT, they have an idea about what they are getting and they probably even like it.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Short of the long, depending on the genre and intent, yes, accessibility can ruin a game.

 

For instance, flight simulators need not focus on accessibility but flight simulation.

I guess the real question is, if war thunder had made the game need a joystick, no mouse controls would it have been a better experience for sim players?

 

Absolutely.

[NewfieDunfielder]

I only downloaded it because all the vids a saw on YouTube were guys playing simulation battles. Was very disappointed to find it removed. Yeah this game is call of duty airplane edition. Not my style but had to check it out

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

That it had a "simulation mode" is more marketing than else. The shooter folks want a shooter. 

 

-snip-

 

Actually, WT sim mode was half-way promising early on... The real breakdown happened when they realized the money is in the shooter folks, not the sim guys.

[unreasonable]

I am not sure why mouse vs non-mouse control is the issue: rather if you can do things to the aeroplane with the mouse that are outside what you can do with a joystick.  From your post it sounds as though in WT you can, in effect you are saying that the mouse gives you a different FM. 

 

My understanding is the mouse control in BoX and RoF does not do that, but I have not tried it myself. AFAIK we have not had a lot of complaints that making these games accessible to people without joysticks is leading to unfair flight characteristics: perhaps they are short on CFS MP etiquette....

[ZachariasX]

Actually, WT sim mode was half-way promising early on... The real breakdown happened when they realized the money is in the shooter folks, not the sim guys.

They tried that? Doing that right probably costs as much as making the rest of the aircraft. Not surprising they gave up soon. Lot of gfx artists can draw an aircraft that kinda looks like the real one. But find and pay one that can make a plausible FM...

[NewfieDunfielder]

I am not sure why mouse vs non-mouse control is the issue: rather if you can do things to the aeroplane with the mouse that are outside what you can do with a joystick. From your post it sounds as though in WT you can, in effect you are saying that the mouse gives you a different FM.

 

My understanding is the mouse control in BoX and RoF does not do that, but I have not tried it myself. AFAIK we have not had a lot of complaints that making these games accessible to people without joysticks is leading to unfair flight characteristics: perhaps they are short on CFS MP etiquette....

 

Yeah players flying with a mouse technically aren't flying and can pull off impossible maneuvers. Breaks it for me. It's a point and shoot the mouse game

[ZachariasX]

I am not sure why mouse vs non-mouse control is the issue: rather if you can do things to the aeroplane with the mouse that are outside what you can do with a joystick.  From your post it sounds as though in WT you can, in effect you are saying that the mouse gives you a different FM. 

 

My understanding is the mouse control in BoX and RoF does not do that, but I have not tried it myself. AFAIK we have not had a lot of complaints that making these games accessible to people without joysticks is leading to unfair flight characteristics: perhaps they are short on CFS MP etiquette....

Making accessible means dumping 90% of expensive funtionality that in itself are the main point of the game as we have it. You can neuter your modules such that mouse control is working fine, but putting them on the same server as the joystick guys is weird. Suddenly you had lots of aim bots that are stalling out on anyone pulling a rope-a-dope on them, butchering them on the way down ("I-16 is UBER!!!1!11 NERF!1!1!!!").

Yeah players flying with a mouse technically aren't flying and can pull off impossible maneuvers. Breaks it for me. It's a point and shoot the mouse game

If you have different "rules" in a game for similar pawns, it ruins your game. WT is a shooter and it might work as such. Planes come cheap if they have to provide nothing but looks. The more content you have, the more people will like it. Regardless of whether they actually use it.

[NewfieDunfielder]

Hell if that was all they did. Separate servers for joystick users and mouse users . I'd play it gladly then. Like I said before it's fun but only with a mouse. You are far to disadvantaged with a joystick in WT to mouse players.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Dunfielder

[ZachariasX]

Hell if that was all they did. Separate servers for joystick users and mouse users . I'd play it gladly then.

We have mouse control on RoF. Doesn't help much attracting players. If you have a mouse player, you probably also need a different menu structure if you log in as mouse user, one with two options: "play" and "quit". The rest "... do I need that?"

[NewfieDunfielder]

I don't like flying with a mouse personally. I have no issues with ROF or IL2 BoX having mouse control options. In those games it more a disadvantage unless you are skilled in mouse and keyboard. You also don't get a different FM for using those controls in those games. In WT though you do and you play online against joystick users whose FM is far closer to real and less fantasy. Why not separate them?

[Scojo]

I don't like flying with a mouse personally. I have no issues with ROF or IL2 BoX having mouse control options. In those games it more a disadvantage unless you are skilled in mouse and keyboard. You also don't get a different FM for using those controls in those games. In WT though you do and you play online against joystick users whose FM is far closer to real and less fantasy. Why not separate them?

I thought it was separated? When I played it a couple years ago, realistic and sim both required joysticks to find matches, or so I thought.

 

I guess it's probably changed since then, though

[NewfieDunfielder]

I thought it was separated? When I played it a couple years ago, realistic and sim both required joysticks to find matches, or so I thought.

 

I guess it's probably changed since then, though

Yeah sim mode is kaput. Realistic can be played with a mouse.

[NewfieDunfielder]

What kind of ping would I need to play il2BoX online decently? I live in Canada and I know most servers are European. Only got basic internet right now but I'm upgrading soon to higher speed and bandwidth. Really would like to be able to play an actual sim with some of the people in this community

[Scojo]

What kind of ping would I need to play il2BoX online decently? I live in Canada and I know most servers are European. Only got basic internet right now but I'm upgrading soon to higher speed and bandwidth. Really would like to be able to play an actual sim with some of the people in this community

The ping limit on WoL is either 150 or 200.

 

I'm always at a ping of ~120-130 and I really don't notice the latency.

Desyncs are what will get you, but those only happen frequently to me when the server is having problems

[ZachariasX]

What kind of ping would I need to play il2BoX online decently? I live in Canada and I know most servers are European. Only got basic internet right now but I'm upgrading soon to higher speed and bandwidth. Really would like to be able to play an actual sim with some of the people in this community

< 75 ms and you should be ok I'd say. Over 100 is bad.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

Over 100 is bad.

 

I make do with a ~400ms ping to WOL. Don't let latency hold you back.

There isn't a whole lot of directional change that can happen in a moving WW2 fighter in 200ms. Its packet loss that hurts.

[NewfieDunfielder]

It's pretty laggy I don't even get a ping listed for WoL

[ZachariasX]

I make do with a ~400ms ping to WOL. Don't let latency hold you back.

There isn't a whole lot of directional change that can happen in a moving WW2 fighter in 200ms. Its packet loss that hurts.

Really? When I get as an average > 100 ms I tend to get stutters. Probably packet loss then. As for service providers, I care more for ping than mere "download speed". It's a problem when during peak hours a lot of peeps are sharing your wire. It doesn't help when you're on WoL and your whole neighborhood is on Netflix. What was once 100 then can go up significantly.

 

I'm curious what I'll get once they'll activate my dark fiber...

[Scojo]

Really? When I get as an average > 100 ms I tend to get stutters. Probably packet loss then. As for service providers, I care more for ping than mere "download speed". It's a problem when during peak hours a lot of peeps are sharing your wire. It doesn't help when you're on WoL and your whole neighborhood is on Netflix. What was once 100 then can go up significantly.

 

I'm curious what I'll get once they'll activate my dark fiber...

If it's smooth interrupted by sudden unrealistic plane movements, then that's packet loss. A really high latency would just mean you'd have to lead your target more when firing.

 

I'm not sure what can be done about packet loss, though.

 

Fiber will absolutely help

[NewfieDunfielder]

Thanks for the info guys. Guess I'll get a 50mb connection and see what that's like. Or should I just go for 100mb package? As a side note this connection would strictly be for my pc only. I'll keep the service I have for tv, Netflix, everyone's wireless etc.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Dunfielder

[BeastyBaiter]

WT has had a joystick only mode for many years (think I picked it up in 2011 or 2012) and still has it. Joystick only applies to flying though, not gunners or tanks. It also allows for using the mouse as an analog controller like a joystick. It's pretty awkward and absolutely at a disadvantage to a stick, even a cheap one. No one complains about that ability. Pretty sure RoF and BoS have it too, not that anyone has tried it. In regards to accessibility, a game can be accessible or complex, it cannot be both. Accessible inherently means dumbing it down so even the most inept can be moderately successful. Some games thrive on being complicated (Eve Online, hard core flight sims, many others) but most games for the past 30 years have focused on being simple. Complicated games have always been a niche.

 

In regards to other modes having different physics for joystick and mouse users, that isn't actually true. It's just that the mouse aim operates so perfectly that it's beyond even a modern FBW system. It compensates for all the nasty behaviors of planes in a stall or doing anything else, allowing for precision shooting while one would normally be tumbling. For a very brief period, they gave mouse aimers gun recoil, and they threw an absolute fit. The recoil was always there of course, but the autopilot they were using corrected for it perfectly and instantly, so all it did was slow the plane down. There wasn't even a vibration because the AI was so perfect. This deliberate slight imperfection in the AI control was removed within a week due to the fit all the mouse aimers had about it. That's a small example but is representative of how the whole mouse aim system works in WT. Same physics, but perfect AI to turn it into counter-strike. Actually easier than CS, as CS has gun recoil.

[NewfieDunfielder]

WT has had a joystick only mode for many years (think I picked it up in 2011 or 2012) and still has it. Joystick only applies to flying though, not gunners or tanks. It also allows for using the mouse as an analog controller like a joystick. It's pretty awkward and absolutely at a disadvantage to a stick, even a cheap one. No one complains about that ability. Pretty sure RoF and BoS have it too, not that anyone has tried it. In regards to accessibility, a game can be accessible or complex, it cannot be both. Accessible inherently means dumbing it down so even the most inept can be moderately successful. Some games thrive on being complicated (Eve Online, hard core flight sims, many others) but most games for the past 30 years have focused on being simple. Complicated games have always been a niche.

 

In regards to other modes having different physics for joystick and mouse users, that isn't actually true. It's just that the mouse aim operates so perfectly that it's beyond even a modern FBW system. It compensates for all the nasty behaviors of planes in a stall or doing anything else, allowing for precision shooting while one would normally be tumbling. For a very brief period, they gave mouse aimers gun recoil, and they threw an absolute fit. The recoil was always there of course, but the autopilot they were using corrected for it perfectly and instantly, so all it did was slow the plane down. There wasn't even a vibration because the AI was so perfect. This deliberate slight imperfection in the AI control was removed within a week due to the fit all the mouse aimers had about it. That's a small example but is representative of how the whole mouse aim system works in WT. Same physics, but perfect AI to turn it into counter-strike. Actually easier than CS, as CS has gun recoil.

Maybe I'm dumb but the interface is confusing. All that comes up is realistic battle or arcade battle for tanks or planes. The only sim games I found were events that give no bonus or lions or anything. As for flight model being the same I actually had a discussion with my brother on it. He said exactly as you did about it being the same but the comp flies. My argument was if I have to fly and you don't we are not experiencing the same flight model. He thinks I'm nuts lol. Seriously mouse users fly straight and level without input while joystick players have to make the normal compensations Or crash. Maybe I'm just salty

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

in simulator battles mouse is at disadadvanatge in wt

No they are not..

 

Mouse joystick Still has more Advantage than a Real Joystick in WT

 

Many of the Top EC Pilots use Mouse Joystick in Full Sim mode

Edited April 21, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[OrLoK]

Mouse control in WT seems vastly different to stick control in WT across the board, but I am not an expert.

 

Im all for accessibility but not at cost of the core game be it for VR or mouse users etc.

 

In SP though all bets are off and I dont mind if mouse users have uber skills/assistance or we VR folk can see through meshes.

[BeastyBaiter]

Maybe I'm dumb but the interface is confusing. All that comes up is realistic battle or arcade battle for tanks or planes. The only sim games I found were events that give no bonus or lions or anything. As for flight model being the same I actually had a discussion with my brother on it. He said exactly as you did about it being the same but the comp flies. My argument was if I have to fly and you don't we are not experiencing the same flight model. He thinks I'm nuts lol. Seriously mouse users fly straight and level without input while joystick players have to make the normal compensations Or crash. Maybe I'm just salty

 

Enduring Conflict has the regular rewards as do simulator battles in events for both tanks and planes. Both are joystick or mouse joy only. And no, mouse joy doesn't give an advantage. I don't know where Sshadow got that idea from. I've yet to come across an EC player there that flew fighters effectively while using mouse joy. Some weren't completely terrible, but I never ran across a good one that I know of. The control just sucks imho. With that said, there are a lot of bomber players there using mouse joy, and the gunners there are super OP. That maybe where Sshadow is getting those stats from. But that has nothing to do with mouse joy and everything to do with silly damage modeling and gunner accuracy.

[unreasonable]

If it's smooth interrupted by sudden unrealistic plane movements, then that's packet loss. A really high latency would just mean you'd have to lead your target more when firing.

 

I'm not sure what can be done about packet loss, though.

 

Fiber will absolutely help

 

I thought that hit/miss calculations were done client side: ie that the lead you use is what it should normally be, given the appearance of the target on your own screen.  So what does happen if you have high ping - as I do, so now not allowed on many servers - is that people behind you shoot you down when it appears that they are at an angle at which that should be impossible, since you are seeing their lagged position.  But at the same time, on their screen, where the hits are calculated, they are further forwards and you are further back and they have an angle.

 

At least that is what I was told about how BoX does MP.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

At least that is what I was told about how BoX does MP.

 

This is also my understanding and what I see from experience. I lead a plane no differently offline than online.

[Guest deleted@30725]

Hi

 

Does accessibility in games (war thunder) ruin games? > War Thunder I got into it using the mouse. I played it in arcade and the middle difficulty mode with mouse before all the clever tanks modes. This is the default and I assumed it was the way to be played. In my opinion war thunder is a mouse driven game. It's at its best as a casual arcade shooter. I've tried the hardest mode with a stick and it's OK I guess. I got into flying the middle mode with a stick and did well once I worked out the plane handling. So - no. War Thunder is a free to play game which needs players for its monetization system to work. It wants casual players. It wants people with mice. Accessibility is what keeps the lights on and the servers full. It's not too bothered about sim players. It's not really a sim. What is the point? To wonder if more games with be dumbed down and copy war thunder to get players? Hmm. Il2 is designed to be more game than sim. DCS is designed to be more SIM than game. War thunder is designed to be a 3rd / 1st person shooter wrapped in a plane theme. Falcon 4.0BMS is a sim mixed with a game. It wants you to learn the F16 as real as possible and go and have fun with it.  Il2 is a more casual game than war thunder once you master it since you don't need to level or 'grind for stuff' learn the basics, pick a plane and go nuts with the available weapons and planes online or offline. War thunder is about an infinite gear treadmill with no real point. Some mythical ladder you feel the need to climb for no reason. War thunder is a terrible piece of software for a player financially. Il2 you buy it once (or 4 times depending on the expansions) and you get all the available content. War thunder breaks you in easy add then adds systems to target your wallet and punishes you by either making you sink endless, pointless hours doing the same thing over and over in a systematic, evil, pointless cycle of time consumption before you decide your life is worth something and you buy the stuff you think you need to progress. Then when you've done that you've got more something to unlock and the time requirements double. The cash required doubles. The total cash spent turns from 10$ to 100$ to 500$. Your time played turns to thousands of hours you when you have finally got to the top of the latter you will sit back and wonder what the hell you wasted the last five years trying achieve. From my experience with this game to level 4 of planes the content actually gets worse, not better as the system fails to compensate for the better planes.

 

The lack of accessibility in a game like Il2 bos is what makes it good. You have to pay the money to get into the game. This hopefully increases the amount of people that play it because they want to rather than because its free and because its there. The payment gives it a value, a worth. You're less likely to act stupid and swear at everyone to get banned because you spent money on it. In war thunder this thing such who cares if you get banned. You didn't put money into it so it's worthless.

 

We have seen that dumbing down a game like war thunder brings in the players, but not really the right players. However. You can't really blame the players for the amount of hate and abuse flying around in a game session. The game has potential, but the development team have ideas outside of the scope of making the game good. Instead, the f2p leash gets ever tighter and more and more wallet targeting systems get implemented.

 

More people playing your game is always a good thing. Having the right development team behind that game is equally important so that people don't feel cheated when using their preferred controller method that the game has allowed them to use.

 

Accessibility in games is good. Implementing that accessibility well is another matter.

 

Fin.

Edited April 22, 2017 by deleted@30725

[unreasonable]

From BFBunny's post it seems that WT should be classified at the minimum as a Schedule II drug and it's distributors given long jail sentences for corrupting youth!

 

One other point - BoX being "designed to be more game than sim".  I think this is not right: originally the designers tried to implement more "gamey" features superimposed in what was very much a detailed sim.  Being slightly less true to life than DCS in some - but arguably not most - aspects of flying a specific aircraft does not make it less of a sim.  It is simulating different things: DCS may simulate some technical procedures better, but as a simulation of WW2 air warfare  BoS always was infinitely better. 

 

The problem was that a heavy handed transplant of stimulus-reward game mechanics into BoS did not work:  the result still required too much initial investment of money and effort for most of the WT market demographic, while annoying many old CFS veterans who then abandoned the series.  

 

Accessibility is all very well, but how, for instance, do you make learning calculus accessible?  To the extent that you can, you need simple stages and good teachers.  Generally, I think BoX has that, and those willing to invest time will learn.  For the others who refuse to make some effort - we are better off without them.

[Scojo]

I thought that hit/miss calculations were done client side: ie that the lead you use is what it should normally be, given the appearance of the target on your own screen.  So what does happen if you have high ping - as I do, so now not allowed on many servers - is that people behind you shoot you down when it appears that they are at an angle at which that should be impossible, since you are seeing their lagged position.  But at the same time, on their screen, where the hits are calculated, they are further forwards and you are further back and they have an angle.

 

At least that is what I was told about how BoX does MP.

Oh you might be right. If it's client side, then you don't have to worry about the latency.

 

I've never paid it a lot of attention and I just assumed since having client side hit detect is usually hacker friendly lol