VR sickness

[Nibbio]

Yeah, I know you fighter jocks are real men and don't even know or care about VR sickness. However my first 2 sessions in Il2 BOX VR really made me look for a barf bag accessory for my Oculus Rift.

 

Those who, like me, are looking for a solution, may be interested in the following "Introduction to and Review of Simulator Sickness Research" by the U.S. Army Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a434495.pdf

 

So far I only learned that Horatio Nelson suffered sea-sickness all his life, an that both Napoleon and Lawrence of Arabia puked from their camels.

 

On the other hand I confirm what others have said: VR is great, it really feels you are in that cramped cockpit (BTW the Macchi is particularly beautiful), gunnery is easier, standing up in the cockpit after landing (or even in flight, if the barf bag is not yet full) is a truly awesome experience, you try to touch the thing and are amazed that your hands only meet empty air...

 

Performannce: my ancient system CPU is an I7 3820, overclocked from 3.6 to 4.2 Ghz, GPU was recently upgraded to an MSI GTX 1060 3Gb. With graphics turned all the way down, SS 1.0, it seems to hold 90fps pretty well in most circumstances, if the HUD is turned off.

 

For comparison this system could hold 80-120 fps in 2D with ULTRA graphics, AAx2, sparse grid SSAAx2.

 

P.S. I am not going back to 2D ever

Edited April 20, 2017 by Nibbio

[dburne]

I tend to suffer motion sickness as well, like riding in a car and such.

 

When I first got my Rift, I had to take frequent breaks from playing - whether it be flying or any other game, as it would start to get to me. Over time I seem to have gradually adopted to it, and now it does not bother me much at all. Sometimes if I do a crazy maneuver it will start up a little again, but usually I am ok.

 

I was really concerned about then when I first ordered the Rift, but have been pleasantly surprised at how well I have adopted to it.

[OrLoK]

Ive found BoX the least nauseating of any sim so far.

It could be if just developed a tolerance over time.

If you do ever feel ill, stop and take a break. Dont push through it.

As to the macci, its such an odd plane, i love it. It feels very steampunk to me. Lovely.

Edited May 8, 2017 by OrLoK

[Nibbio]

From the report linked above:

 

Treatment

As with MS (motion sickness), the surest treatment for SS (simulator sickness) is simple adaptation. Nearly everyone will adapt to a particular simulator eventually. To aid adaptation to a new simulator, aviators should begin with brief simulator hops, flying gentle maneuvers, with subsequent hops separated by one-day intervals  (NTSC, 1988). In this context, "brief" means less than one hour, with breaks as needed. The maximum duration of any simulator session should never exceed two hours.

[Nibbio]

more interesting stuff:

 

General rules.

Avoid fatigue or sleep loss, hangover, upset stomach, head colds, ear infections, ear blockages, upper respiratory illness, medications, and alcohol.

If you have been sick recently and are not fully recovered, reschedule your simulator training.

Persons who are new to the simulator, or who have not operated it in months, are at risk.

Do not schedule simulator sessions for greater than two hours for any reason.

Use breaks, time-outs extensively.

The more nauseogenic the session, the shorter the session should be.

Aggressive, violent maneuvers, near ground level, are more nauseogenic than high, straight-and-level flight.

Adaptation is one of the most potent fixes for SS.

In order to optimize adaptation, there should be a minimum of one day between simulator sessions, and a maximum of seven days.

Begin with short sessions, using non-nauseogenic maneuvers.

Minimize rapid gain and loss in altitude; minimize abrupt or continued roll; minimize porpoising.

Fly the most provocative tasks at the end of the session.

Minimize head movement, particularly when new or dynamic maneuvers are being trained.

[TP_Silk]

While I am sure that many of the same pieces of advice apply, there is a world of difference between a headset VR situation and a full-on military grade sit-in simulator that is powered by hydraulics and such like. I suspect that much of the disconnect that causes nausea in the case of those machines will come from the the way the machine itself moves and possibly even the time it takes for the movement commands to match up with what the display is showing inside the simulator cockpit.

 

In much the same way I suspect that much of the nausea when using VR headsets will be caused by slight lag in the display following head movements and by any movement at all in the display when the head is still (this is referring back to the re-centring that is reported as occurring after a collision between the virtual cockpit perspex and the player's virtual head).

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

If you do ever feel ill, stop and take a break. Dont push through it.

 

 

This can't be stressed enough. Stop before you feel too sick and take a break. If you don't you will write yourself off for an entire day.

 

Play in small amounts at first. A few minutes at a time limiting maneuvers to simple ones. Extend the time you spend in each session. Eventually you will hopefully have no, or very limited VR sickness effects.

Its like the inverse of sea sickness. You get sea sick due to feeling movement but not seeing it. In VR you see movement, but don't feel it - but the result is the same.

 

 

Speaking of 'feeling it' though, how cool is the feeling you get when you bring your plane to a stop.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Tripwire

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

I find all of this very problematic. A gaming accessory that can cause one to actually feel sick!. 

 

I get seriously seasick and even carsick when riding in the rear seat sometimes.

 

I doubt I will be able to enjoy VR unless the technology improves to the point of 'not' causing nausea.

[TP_Silk]

Thad - the best bet is probably to find a local games/gaming expo that has a VR demo booth or similar and book a 'test drive'. Those things are not too common over here in the UK, but you should be able to find something similar over there in the States.

[kissklas]

I doubt this has to do with the tech. It used to, back in the dev kit days, when the headtracking and responsiveness was horrible.

I also nearly barfed the first time I tried VR in War Thunder. Now I have no motion sickness what so ever.

 

I also got sick just by looking at a car seat. But I have found out that after getting used to VR by doing small 15-30 minute flights with moderate movements it got better and better. In the car as well.

 

So here are my tips:

Practice in free flights, and take breaks the second you start feeling something.

Also, try to also look around differently when flying. Find a target, and keep your eyes on it as the cockpit rotates around you.

Use a cloud, a tree, or an aircraft. Then as that target goes out of your view, pick another. If you let your view slide through the landscape in a turn you might get sick.

Watching the dashboard for too long can also get you sick. Just like texting in the backseat of the car. I feel sick just thinking about it:p

 

It has really helped me. I rarely get car sick anymore, and never in VR.

Edited April 20, 2017 by kissklas

[Bearfoot]

Salutations,

 

I find all of this very problematic. A gaming accessory that can cause one to actually feel sick!. 

 

I get seriously seasick and even carsick when riding in the rear seat sometimes.

 

I doubt I will be able to enjoy VR unless the technology improves to the point of 'not' causing nausea.

 

 

VR sickness has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" of the technology. In fact, VR sickness is indicative of how good the technology is at working in the brain. 

 

What causes VR sickness? 

 

The same thing that causes sea sickness: a disagreement between motion/acceleration as perceived in the brain through the eyes, and that as perceived in the vestibular system in the ears.

 

The vestibular system of the ears is a tiny biological gyro --- made up of a set of vessels lined with cilia and filled with a viscous fluid --- that sense acceleration along three independent axes. We rely on it for our sense of balance, in particular, but more generally for coordinating and measuring any movement in 3D space. 

 

When we get sea sick, what happens is that our eyes, looking around the inside of the ship, perceive no movement, but our biogyro vestibular system does (the heave and the swell of the sea results in acceleration in multiple directions). This disconnect/disagreement causes sea sickness.

 

This disagreement is also what causes VR sickness, but the "argument" is opposite: VR so convincingly simulates the visual signal of motion to the point that the brain is totally fooled (in a way that is just not possible with 2D) into thinking we are moving, but the vestibular system, on the other hand, senses no such acceleration. Hence we feel the sickness. This is inherent to the very notion of simulating a physical experience in the brain and cannot be overcome by any VR technology! The only way the "technology" can improve to avoid VR sickness is to recruit the vestibular system to the sense of motion, and the only way that can be achieved is to use a 6DOF physical motion simulator. 

 

Good news is that your brain can be quickly trained to accept the disconnect, just like people quickly gain their "sea legs".

Edited April 20, 2017 by Bearfoot

[Bearfoot]

VR sickness is real! And it makes nobody less of a person because they have it. I posted about it here and in the DCS forums when I first got my OR, and the general consensus was:

 

(1) you will get over it!

(2) takes 2-3 weeks

(3) go gentle at first, for short periods of time, quitting when things get rough

(4) ginger

 

I can definitely attest to the veracity of (1) through (3). I tried (4), and honestly cannot tell whether it helped or not, but I can say I picked up a taste for ginger tea and gingerade, so it's all good!

 

So stick it out in the long term --- at least a couple of weeks. But don't push the individual sessions: when you feel it is too much, stop and take a break. And go gentle at first: straight and level flights, staring straight ahead. Then work in some gentle banking turns. Keep looking ahead: in the early days, looking off to the side makes things worse. Use this as a opportunity to reappreciate the beautiful scenery, maybe from the big glasshouse cockpit of a stately flying He-111! A little by little, build up the conditioning that tells your brain it is OK if your eyes and your ears (vestibular system) disagree. Eventually, you will get there. And it will not take long: within a week you will see marked improvement, and in a couple of weeks it will be mostly gone.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Hum, never got VR sick, from day one I put the HMD on and was fine for hours on end. Is that because I fly small planes IRL sometimes and I'm used to it?

 

That one post Nibbio put up said avoid alcohol. Pfft I'm drinking as I fly(not IRL)!  Fly hammered and you won't care if the VR makes you queasy!   

[dburne]

VR sickness has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" of the technology. In fact, VR sickness is indicative of how good the technology is at working in the brain. 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly!!

[Nibbio]

Hum, never got VR sick, from day one I put the HMD on and was fine for hours on end. Is that because I fly small planes IRL sometimes and I'm used to it?

 

That one post Nibbio put up said avoid alcohol. Pfft I'm drinking as I fly(not IRL)!  Fly hammered and you won't care if the VR makes you queasy!   

 

As a matter of fact, the report I quoted states that the incidence of SS (simulator sickness) was higher among experienced pilots. The report explains it by assuming that the SC (sensory conflict) is higher for those aviators with more flight hours. The total incidence of SS varied from 15 to 80% in the various groups considered.

 

As for booze, well, I find it difficult to find the little rum shot glass with the visor on. Think from now on I'll have to swig straight from the bottle

[jamesp111]

I've been pretty resilient to VR sickness, but have felt it a couple of times.

 

You will almost certainly get over it quickly:

 

Good evidence is Onward on Steam has 91% positive review but is a very challenging VR experience (much more than IL2). I think that game proved that the more challenging stuff will work fine.

[Nibbio]

Well after 4 or 5 days of adaptation VR sickness seems to be gone for good

 

now i have to look up Onward...

[VR-DriftaholiC]

Just stop immediately when you feel yourself getting even the earliest symptoms. When you feel normal again go back in. Keep at it and eventually you will become accustomed to the sensations and no longer feel ill.

[[DBS]steveiy]

I was quite sick for the first 2-3 weeks of VR.  Particularly helicopters in DCS, which made me immediately want to spew.  Now I have acclimatised and nothing is a problem.  OK, apart from getting dumped out of my plane into midair when a multiplayer mission ends in BoS, which is more about a sudden massive discontinuity than motion sickness.

 

And we (ex) sufferers are in good company - I once demo'd my VR to a professional display pilot, and she said it was really good. But she had to take it off after a while because it made her feel ill.

[OrLoK]

oh, some of the transitions in BoX are evil, like the out of bounds one.

[dburne]

I thought I was adapting pretty well to becoming more immune to the motion sickness. Flight sims - some FPS games.

Until I tried navigating myself through the ISS in 0 Gravity... whoa.

[Quax]

Hum, never got VR sick, from day one I put the HMD on and was fine for hours on end. Is that because I fly small planes IRL sometimes and I'm used to it?

 

 

I believe, as Nibbio said, the opposite. I got more than 15000 h in the air, and did feel extremely bad in the first second I pulled the plane into a g-turn. For whatever reason I have the least problems with BoX.

There was a fighter pilot, who tested BoX VR in Beta, telling the same. This is somehow against the theory, as the conflict between eyes and inner ear should be the same in all sims. But I did fly aerobatic missions

in the I16 without any bad feeling in the meantime. Stunning experience ! I can´t do aerobatics in RL due to motion sickness 

[A_radek]

That thing about real men and motionsicknes, is not connected. I've never felt any motion sickness irl. I raced bikes for many years, sailed in very large waves and not even as a kid in a roller coaster did I feel any nausea. VR has not affected me either in any way.

 

A close friend with the same background, but with a more natural talent than me for it all. Has had great difficulty adapting to VR.

 

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that his sense of balance is better than mine.

Good news is that it is getting better for him with time.

[marklar]

Ive found BoX the least nauseating of any sim so far.

 

For me it's completely opposite. I can fly in War Thunder for hours without any motion sickness but in BoX I feel it after 30min, even with stable 90fps. It's even worse if I choose the expert difficulty because of this unnatural and artificial cockpit limitations.

Edited May 9, 2017 by marklar

[TP_Silk]

For me it's completely opposite. I can fly in War Thunder for hours without any motion sickness but in BoX I feel it after 30min, even with stable 90fps. It's even worse if I choose the expert difficulty because of this unnatural and artificial cockpit limitations.

 

I don't understand this. As far as I'm aware the only limitations are the actual size of the cockpits. I know that there is a mechanic that you can turn off whereby you get 'bounced' back in slightly if trying to move your head outside the confines of the cockpit, but that's all. Do you mind explaining what you mean so that I can understand as i'm considering getting a VR set in the not-too-distant future.

[beepee]

 

 

It's even worse if I choose the expert difficulty because of this unnatural and artificial cockpit limitations.

 

Do you mean because you can not have external views in expert???

[marklar]

I don't understand this. As far as I'm aware the only limitations are the actual size of the cockpits.

 

No, they are not. At least not in Bf109. You hit the invisible wall way before the cockpit frame.

 

 

Do you mean because you can not have external views in expert???

 

No, it's not what I meant.

[TP_Silk]

I would say that is more likely an issue with your head position settings. The Bf109 in particular had an extremely small and cramped cockpit, so if one were to set ones head position too far back (for instance) then it is always going to stop before you think it should as that is exceeding the normal parameters. In effect if you move your eyes towards the back of where your head would be, then you should expect that they will still be at the back of that space when hitting the forwardmost possible position.

 

We in the computer game world are used setting things like our view settings in unrealistic but pleasing positions. It can only be expected that if real-world dimensions are enforced in something like VR that they will be more limiting.

[marklar]

 

 

so if one were to set ones head position too far back (for instance) then it is always going to stop before you think it should as that is exceeding the normal parameters.

 

 

No, you always hit the same invisible boundary regardless of your initial head position. This boundary is not fixed to the camera but to the plane. There are plenty of topics on this forum regarding this issue so it's not something I made up.

As I said earlier hitting invisible walls makes me sick so I am not going to force myself. I wouldn't give a s... about this if the head restrictions were not forced on expert difficulty servers. In single player I can always turn it off but not in multi.

 

Fortunately BoX is not the only flight sim on the market. DCS Normandy is coming soon and I still enjoy War Thunder.

[dburne]

 

 

No, you always hit the same invisible boundary regardless of your initial head position. This boundary is not fixed to the camera but to the plane. There are plenty of topics on this forum regarding this issue so it's not something I made up.

As I said earlier hitting invisible walls makes me sick so I am not going to force myself. I wouldn't give a s... about this if the head restrictions were not forced on expert difficulty servers. In single player I can always turn it off but not in multi.

 

Fortunately BoX is not the only flight sim on the market. DCS Normandy is coming soon and I still enjoy War Thunder.

 

 

They really should make this optional even in Expert Mode.

 

No one is going to gain any advantage at all from this, and it would really help folks that experience the sickness issue from hitting those boundaries.

If fly currently in SP only so always have that disabled. I sure don't gain any advantage over the AI from this.

Currently going through the campaign and would love to fly it in Expert, however this is preventing me from doing so.

Edited May 9, 2017 by dburne

[OrLoK]

agreed, fingers crossed the devs take pity on us

 

If it's an *easy* fix I wouldnt be surprised if we see it soon!

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

It should be an option just like the GPS indicator on the map.

 

My only issue with head restrictions right now is the limited forward movement towards the gunsight which stops well before it feels it should, and the extra 5cm on the front of your face that seems to bump other windows (goggles)?

 

The obvious movement restrictions in planes like the Ju88 also need to go.

 

But... The restrictions can't be removed completely because of the few that ruin it for everyone else.

 

VR early adopters are most likely those after immersion, and won't abuse game mechanics to simulate the WW2 experience.

 

Remember the days before wind restrictions pushed your head back inside the plane? We had some well known players flying with their head out the window. Now days we have snap views used to gain a huge ability to perfectly check 6 even though it would not be possible in reality. These guys already have TrackIR, yet still exploit game mechanics to make it easier for themselves changing the dynamics of WW2 air combat in the process.

 

Its the win at all costs crowd that is the reason we can't have nice things.

[BP_Lizard]

So, how long did it take for you guys to get over VR sickness (those who initially experienced it)? I have thw Vive since Monday and have been playing little at a time, dizzy afterward.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

If you really wanted to play without sickness and play well.

Best would be to have the VR on you 16-18 hours a day and only have it not running when you need to eat.

So your body adapts to the VR as normal and real world as VR.




Obviously im freaking joking.
 

[Nibbio]

BP_Lizard it took me about a week. Just stop when you feel dizzy, rest a while, and repeat when you feel better. You'll notice gradual improvements and then finally adapt.

[dburne]

So, how long did it take for you guys to get over VR sickness (those who initially experienced it)? I have thw Vive since Monday and have been playing little at a time, dizzy afterward.

 

It probably took me about two weeks or so playing a little off and on each day.

 

I can still get it a little in certain games, but nothing too bad any more.

[BP_Lizard]

Thanks, guys. I'll do baby steps and do short sightseeing flights for now.

 

 

If you really wanted to play without sickness and play well.

Best would be to have the VR on you 16-18 hours a day and only have it not running when you need to eat.

So your body adapts to the VR as normal and real world as VR.

Obviously im freaking joking.

 

Hahahaha! "Shock and Awe," just like Gen Schwarzkopf said.

[Quax]

 

 

No, you always hit the same invisible boundary regardless of your initial head position. This boundary is not fixed to the camera but to the plane. There are plenty of topics on this forum regarding this issue so it's not something I made up.

As I said earlier hitting invisible walls makes me sick so I am not going to force myself. I wouldn't give a s... about this if the head restrictions were not forced on expert difficulty servers. In single player I can always turn it off but not in multi.

 

Fortunately BoX is not the only flight sim on the market. DCS Normandy is coming soon and I still enjoy War Thunder.

 

 

The boundaries should be relaxed a good portion.It would be enough, if you are not able to place your head completely outside the cockpit. I don't see the need to bang against invisible walls inside the cockpit as well.

It helps me nonetheless to reset the best possible head position to avoid the bangs (which make me feel bad as well). F.e. I lean back a bit before saving, so I don't bang against the back when turning the head.

But calling War Thunder a flight sim doesn't help the topic 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Quax

[Highwayman]

See this post I made on the Gametrix Jetseat thread, this drastically increased the time I could spend in VR without any side effects: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28664-devs-any-plans-make-game-compatible-gametrix-jetseat/?p=470803

[bertram_wooster]

Hello guys, 

 

I got an Oculus Rift and started playing BoS with it. I probably played roughly an hour and a half on the first evening. I felt a bit sick when doing extreme manoeuvers, but otherwise was fine. The next morning, I am feeling a bit dizzy, but it is no big deal.
However, I also tried a simracing game in VR (Project Cars 2) and it is FAR worse than flying a plane. I had nausea after a few minutes of playing, even when not speeding much. I found this article about how to fight motion sickness in racing sims and think the explanation is interesting. Have you gotten rid of head shake in iL2 games?