Rudder pedals and russian brakes

[=NVA=SunGirl]

On german planes the brakes work as usual, left brake is left and right is right. But on russian planes there is only a single brake axis, if that is assigned to either pedal then it works on russian planes but not on german ones. Is there a solution to that?

[ZachariasX]

On german planes the brakes work as usual, left brake is left and right is right. But on russian planes there is only a single brake axis, if that is assigned to either pedal then it works on russian planes but not on german ones. Is there a solution to that?

Russian planes have brakes that work differently. They are operated by a lever that you pull. Differential braking (like depressing one pedal in the German planes) is achieved by pulling the lever and when you are pressing down the rudder pedal on one side, it will result in differential btaking as well. For instance brake lever + left rudder means braking left plus left rudder.

[=NVA=SunGirl]

Russian planes have brakes that work differently. They are operated by a lever that you pull. Differential braking (like depressing one pedal in the German planes) is achieved by pulling the lever and when you are pressing down the rudder pedal on one side, it will result in differential btaking as well. For instance brake lever + left rudder means braking left plus left rudder.

I know how the brakes work, I was asking how the axis could be assigned to rudder pedals without interfering with the German planes differential brakes. Edited April 17, 2017 by =NVA=SunGirl

[ZachariasX]

I know how the brakes work, I was asking how the axis could be assigned to rudder pedals without interfering with the German planes differential brakes.

Realistically, isn't it more a lever on the flightstick? But isn't there a brake axis for russian planes specifically? That one shouldn't mess up the differential braking should you assign it on the brake as well.

[=NVA=SunGirl]

Realistically, isn't it more a lever on the flightstick? But isn't there a brake axis for russian planes specifically? That one shouldn't mess up the differential braking should you assign it on the brake as well.

There are three brake axis. brake, brake left, and brake right. Assigning brake will apply brakes on russian planes and apply both brakes on german ones, preventing differential braking.

[ZachariasX]

There are three brake axis. brake, brake left, and brake right. Assigning brake will apply brakes on russian planes and apply both brakes on german ones, preventing differential braking.

Oh, that didn't change then. I put brakes on the lever of the flightstick, analogous to its real world position. They should come up with a plane specific function then, as they have it with the trim...

[=NVA=SunGirl]

Oh, that didn't change then. I put brakes on the lever of the flightstick, analogous to its real world position. They should come up with a plane specific function then, as they have it with the trim...

What flightstick do you use? I've never heard of a stick with levers/axis on them.

[Sokol1]

I know how the brakes work, I was asking how the axis could be assigned to rudder pedals without interfering with the German planes differential brakes.

 

The detail that you are missing is that in this game "differential brakes" (Russian brake) work too for German planes - this is need for people that use only "3in1" twist stick's and not rudder pedals -  but became inconvenient for the "cheat" of fake "toe brakes" in pedal for Russian planes. 

 

So the alternative is set Russian brakes in joystick/throttle button only, not in "fake" toe brakes... or buy a VKB MCG or VirPil t50 grip with proper analog lever for "differential brakes" in Russian planes, like in real planes, e.g. Yak-1:

 

gifs upl

 

Or don't assign "toe brakes" (Left brake, Right brake) for German planes and use "Differential brakes" (Wheel brakes) for all planes, in the end the result is the same,

brake only right or left wheel: press the brake pedal for desired wheel and move the rudder bar for the same side.  

Edited April 18, 2017 by Sokol1

[ZachariasX]

Some peeps (like me) just love their toe brakes.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Even tho they are on the same pedals if they are proper pedals that is
rudders and toe/heel brakes are 2 different systems and axis within the pedals

Using rudder should not interfere with your ability to use toe brakes or heel brakes
Same goes for using toe or heel brakes should not interfere with your ability to use rudder.

Unless you are on-coordinated (like those people who can't drive a manual will struggle)

How to bind them with russian brake setup is different yes..
You want to bind Each pedal with Left right rudder and main brakes button so the game senses a brake input via toe/heel brakes instead of just rudder..

Edited April 18, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[Scojo]

If you set left and right to your toe, and then wheel brakes to a button on your throttle/stick/keyboard, then you can fly both sides without interference.

 

On axis, use the toe brakes and on Russian press the wheel brakes button and press rudder right/left.

[Sokol1]

 

 

Using rudder should not interfere with your ability to use toe brakes or heel brakes

Same goes for using toe or heel brakes should not interfere with your ability to use rudder.

 

Moving rudder don't interfere in press right or left "toe brakes", nor vice-versa.

 

But if you wrong assign your Right and Left pedal axis for "Wheel brakes" you need use according, press the brake and move rudder, is how this is designed.

 

What is different in this game is: their initial target audience is casual "new players", that at the best has a joystick with "twist" rudder and not "hardcore(head) veteran" with $350/500+ Crosswind/Viper pedals.

 

So, how this 'newbie" will use "toe brakes" in their twist rudder joystick?

 

No way, but if by press a button/key for brake both wheels and "twist" the rudder make brake right or left wheel (like IRL majority of British/Italian/Russian planes) they will brake one whell in any plane, and then game became more accessible. That's the game option/design.

 

People complaining is because they want set brakes for Russian planes in a place that they never are, the tip of pedals foot rest, a fake "toe brakes", what is unrealistic (since people like talk in "realism" in flight games).

 

In games like DCS, CloD (don't know WT) you can do this because they don't has this help for easy the life of twist stick new players, so the "toe brakes" planes ignore the "wheel brakes" command and vice-versa, but not in Bo'X.

 

I have a VKB T-Rudder pedal without brakes of any kind, so in DCS P-51, Bf 109, Fw 190 I need rely on 3rd part soft (T-Link) for create "differential brakes" for this planes, but don't need this in BoS, there I just press the button for "Wheel brakes" and push the pedal for desired side, the plane do "donuts" and I can use a "high end" pedal without spent ~$150+ in "toe brakes". 

 

So the "toe brakes elite"   need lobby for game change this design for allow use their pedal brakes in a unrealistic way in Russian planes, not in help "new players" with twist stick in Luftwaffe/American planes.  

Edited April 18, 2017 by Sokol1

[Scojo]

I have no toe brakes on my rudder pedals.

 

I use two buttons on my throttle at my index finger. The left one activates left brake, the right one activates right brake.

 

When I hop in a plane with pneumatic brakes, I reassign one of those as wheel brakes and then press that in conjunction with rudder left/right to brake left or right.

 

This works the same way it did back before I had rudder pedals and was using twist stick.

Edited April 18, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[ZachariasX]

Moving rudder don't interfere in press right or left "toe brakes", nor vice-versa.

 

But if you wrong assign your Right and Left pedal axis for "Wheel brakes" you need use according, press the brake and move rudder, is how this is designed.

 

What is different in this game is: their initial target audience is casual "new players", that at the best has a joystick with "twist" rudder and not "hardcore(head) veteran" with $350/500+ Crosswind/Viper pedals.

 

So, how this 'newbie" will use "toe brakes" in their twist rudder joystick?

 

No way, but if by press a button/key for brake both wheels and "twist" the rudder make brake right or left wheel (like IRL majority of British/Italian/Russian planes) they will brake one whell in any plane, and then game became more accessible. That's the game option/design.

 

People complaining is because they want set brakes for Russian planes in a place that they never are, the tip of pedals foot rest, a fake "toe brakes", what is unrealistic (since people like talk in "realism" in flight games).

 

In games like DCS, CloD (don't know WT) you can do this because they don't has this help for easy the life of twist stick new players, so the "toe brakes" planes ignore the "wheel brakes" command and vice-versa, but not in Bo'X.

 

I have a VKB T-Rudder pedal without brakes of any kind, so in DCS P-51, Bf 109, Fw 190 I need rely on 3rd part soft (T-Link) for create "differential brakes" for this planes, but don't need this in BoS, there I just press the button for "Wheel brakes" and push the pedal for desired side, the plane do "donuts" and I can use a "high end" pedal without spent ~$150+ in "toe brakes". 

 

So the "toe brakes elite"   need lobby for game change this design for allow use their pedal brakes in a unrealistic way in Russian planes, not in help "new players" with twist stick in Luftwaffe/American planes.  

Not really following your point. When I have an aircraft equipped with toe brakes, why shouldn't I have such on my controllers? And if the respective aircraft has "Russian brakes", like the Spitfire as well has, I just use the lever on the stick. Why should I use 3rd pary software for making differential brakes? is it so hard to figure that out for the sim itself?

 

Why shouldn't it be desireable to reproduce the input devices? Toe brakes for the Yak... well... that'd be strange. But for the Cessna, please. Is that too much to ask?

 

I just got the impression that for Russians toe brakes are unnessesary because their planes don't have them anyway, never mind the rest, because the good solution is there.

 

I find it especially daft taxiing a modern GA aircraft using the bicycle brake.

 

Then again, I deal with what I can source. And I'd pay another 150 for decent toe brakes.

[Sokol1]

Not really following your point. When I have an aircraft equipped with toe brakes, why shouldn't I have such on my controllers? 

 

Nothing prevents you assign "toe brakes" for e.g. Bf 109 if you correct assign your rudder pedal brakes axis for "Left brake" and "Right brake" in game controls options.

 

What people are trying is assign their rudder pedal left and right brake axis for "Wheel brakes" in games controls (the game allow assign up to 3 different inputs for same command) and due game design this will cause issue for Luftwaffe and other "toe brakes" planes. 

 

To make clear: "Toe brakes" in BoS controls is "Left and Right Brakes" options - "Russian brakes" is "Wheel brakes" option. Apples and oranges, can't be mixed.

 

And if the respective aircraft has "Russian brakes", like the Spitfire as well has, I just use the lever on the stick. Why should I use 3rd pary software for making differential brakes? is it so hard to figure that out for the sim itself?

 

If you use a lever (or button) in your joystick for "Russian brakes" (called "Wheel brakes" in game controls), you are done the things right  and don' need to nothing more.

 

You don't need 3rd part soft (VKB T-Link) I need for use my rudder pedal (VKB T-Rudder uniaxial) in DCS or CloD - but only for planes equipped with "toe brakes",  this soft "install" "Russian/British" brakes in BF 109, Fw 190, P-51. 

 

https://s24.postimg.org/hly2w8bdh/Brake_lever.jpg

 

What people don't realize is that IL-2 BoS has this "Russian/British" brakes installed by default in Luftwaffe, P-40, I-16 - besides their "toe brakes". See the difference?

 

 

I just got the impression that for Russians toe brakes are unnessesary because their planes don't have them anyway, never mind the rest, because the good solution is there.

 

Yes, is unnecessary and incorrect, but people want use their rudder pedal right and left brake axes for the command "Wheel brakes" with I call "fake toe brakes" and this cause issue for Luftwaffe planes, because in BoS:

 

Yak-1 - can use "Wheel brakes" but not "Toe brakes".

BF 109 - Can use "Toe Brakes (like IRL) and "Wheel brakes" - to help new players and twist stick.

 

Respect this, and will have no problems. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Sokol1

[ZachariasX]

Ok, all the better, we're on the same page. I just noticed that it is hard to find pedals with toe brakes. I like them for the simple reason that I'm used to them in GA planes and it feels weird using them on the stick. But taxiing a Yak with toe brakes is weird as well. Call it mannerism.

 

The only reason so far for me not having approached you yet for a set of pedals are those "missing" functions. I have most airtime Prepar3D using GA planes. But I guess at some point I will have to get a bit more practical. And I don't mind paying good money for good craftsmanship. (Opening and soldering Saitek stuff should be enough to cure anyone.)

[Sokol1]

I have no toe brakes on my rudder pedals.

 

I use two buttons on my throttle at my index finger. The left one activates left brake, the right one activates right brake.

 

When I hop in a plane with pneumatic brakes, I reassign one of those as wheel brakes and then press that in conjunction with rudder left/right to brake left or right.

 

This works the same way it did back before I had rudder pedals and was using twist stick.

 

IMO - You are complicating things unnecessarily (and wasting one throttle button), can just assign one throttle button for "Wheel brakes" and nothing more.

 

In game press this button and move rudder pedal for side of curve, only the wheel of this side will be braked in ANY plane of the game, not matter if Russian, Italian, German or American.

 

Test and see the result.

 

 

 I just noticed that it is hard to find pedals with toe brakes

 

 

What? Who are lost now is me, most of commercial rudder pedals for flight games has "toe brakes".

 

CH PRO Pedal

Thrustmaster TFRP

Saitek PRO and (discontinued) Combat

MFG Crosswind

Slaw Viper

Baur (optional in basic model).

VKB RDR (discontinued)

 

Don't have "toe brakes":

 

VKB T-Rudder (use T-Link soft for simulate "British/Russian brakes")

Old (discontinued) Thrustmaster RCS and Elite

Old (discontinued) Simped (basic mode) 

Some pedals specific for helicopters, don't has spring for return to center.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Sokol1

[ZachariasX]

Availability is an issue. So far, I use Saitek, but I had to patch them up before. They won't last much longer.

 

The only ones I readily find on sale in Switzerland are the Thrustmaster ones and I'm not so fond of that plastic ware. Would be nice getting VKB quality ones for a change. So I guess Baurs Pedals with toe brake option is the only choice.

[ST_ami7b5]

Availability is an issue. So far, I use Saitek, but I had to patch them up before. They won't last much longer.

 

The only ones I readily find on sale in Switzerland are the Thrustmaster ones and I'm not so fond of that plastic ware. Would be nice getting VKB quality ones for a change. So I guess Baurs Pedals with toe brake option is the only choice.

 

The Thrustmaster pedals are not that bad, I bought them after my G940 pedals broke, an so far I am quite satisfied with them.

[Scojo]

IMO - You are complicating things unnecessarily (and wasting one throttle button), can just assign one throttle button for "Wheel brakes" and nothing more.

 

In game press this button and move rudder pedal for side of curve, only the wheel of this side will be braked in ANY plane of the game, not matter if Russian, Italian, German or American.

 

Test and see the result.

I'll give it a try, thanks

[Sokol1]

So I guess Baurs Pedals with toe brake option is the only choice.

 

Baur MS3 pedal (with "toe brakes") has good price.

[ZachariasX]

Thnx for the advice guys!

[9./JG27golani79]

MFG Crosswinds are a fine pair of pedals as well (toebrakes included) - got them a few months back and I´m really enjoying them.

Edited April 19, 2017 by 9./JG27golani79

[dburne]

MFG Crosswinds are a fine pair of pedals as well (toebrakes included) - got them a few months back and I´m really enjoying them.

 

 

 

I can second that!

 

I have been running my Crosswinds since Dec of 2015, and they are incredible.

Love these pedals, so dang smooth and customizable.

[LukeFF]

In case people don't know, there are some exceptions to the way wheel brakes work in the game:

• I-16 has differential brakes
• P-40 has differential brakes
• MC202 has a brake lever

[Bearfoot]

The detail that you are missing is that in this game "differential brakes" (Russian brake) work too for German planes - this is need for people that use only "3in1" twist stick's and not rudder pedals -  but became inconvenient for the "cheat" of fake "toe brakes" in pedal for Russian planes. 

 

So the alternative is set Russian brakes in joystick/throttle button only, not in "fake" toe brakes... or buy a VKB MCG or VirPil t50 grip with proper analog lever for "differential brakes" in Russian planes, like in real planes, e.g. Yak-1:

 

gifs upl

 

Or don't assign "toe brakes" (Left brake, Right brake) for German planes and use "Differential brakes" (Wheel brakes) for all planes, in the end the result is the same,

brake only right or left wheel: press the brake pedal for desired wheel and move the rudder bar for the same side.  

 

The problem with the assignment of a button to brakes and then using left/right rudder is that the button gives you full brakes at a press, right? So it is either full brake or no brake. You can use analog differential rudder to distribute the braking pressure, I guess, but the brake pressure is always maximum? So the only way to control the braking force is the "tap tap tap" dance --- i.e. quick, brief press-and-release of brake button. Is this actually how it worked in the real world? Or, in real life, was the brake pressure is analog, and could be regulated depending on how hard the handle was squeezed? That is everything from slight pressure on brake to full pressure?

[metalnwood]

The whole thing is a compromis.

 

     Making something work on all aircraft for a newbie with a twist stick which in itself is not realistic at all but if it's an argument thats positive then surely so is the argument that you can use your pedals in all aircraft for those with toe brakes.  Not realistic but the same as a twist stick, giving options to people with the equipment they have.

 

     I have wondered why I had no brakes in the yak, now I know why  I had them mapped for the toe brakes.   I knew that I wouldnt have the option of right toe = right brake on the yak but I did think it would give me the associated wheel brake for the yak.  Which it doesnt.

 

     I am new to BOS, only just got it but there seem to be a number of controls that have multiple mappings  for different/similar functions depending on what aircraft you are flying.   Why can't brakes have the same? Or if that is deemed too much of a hassle then there is always the possibility that if 'wheel brake' is mapped to something and there is no mapping to the left or right brake then 'wheel brake' is always used regardless of aircraft eg the case of a twist stick.   If in a german plane and either of the left/right brakes are mapped they take preference.   Also, as dburne points out above, analog is nice for brakes and I happen to have it on my pedals and no where else conveniently for that function.

 

     That does not seem complicated to me and I don't see how satisfying everyone can hurt.  We can't aim for a realistic situation for everyone all the time.

Edited April 23, 2017 by metalnwood

[Sokol1]

The problem with the assignment of a button to brakes and then using left/right rudder is that the button gives you full brakes at a press, right? So it is either full brake or no brake. You can use analog differential rudder to distribute the braking pressure, I guess, but the brake pressure is always maximum? So the only way to control the braking force is the "tap tap tap" dance --- i.e. quick, brief press-and-release of brake button. Is this actually how it worked in the real world? Or, in real life, was the brake pressure is analog, and could be regulated depending on how hard the handle was squeezed? That is everything from slight pressure on brake to full pressure?

 

The "British/Russian" lever brake system (anyone know the right name for this?) work with compressed air, not hydraulic lines like in "tip toe brakes".

 

So are air reservoir with example 250 Lbs of pressure and a valve under the lever that allow this pressure reach the brake cylinder.

 

Is possible control this pressure transfer, example send only 120 lbs instead 250 lbs like in hydraulic system to reach half brake force instead full?

 

See the brake lever valve under this Yak-1 drawing (right, bottom):

 

 

This looks that work more as "ON/OFF" that proportional like in "tip toe brakes".

 

See this Hurricane taxi, although not much visible is possible see that pilot use brake lever by pressing and releasing, pressing and releasing... not pressing and hold like in hydraulic "tip toe brake" system.

 

 

But in flight games world people want "exploit" the things as much possible.

 

And in Bo'X has the benefit that when you move rudder bar the brake pressure in one and other wheel is proportional to this movement, allowing 70% of brake force in one wheel and 30% in another, in the above Yak-1 system this is not possible, when you move rudder bar, the non braked wheel has this valve open to vent the pressure to atmosphere, is 0 or 100.

 

 

• I-16 has differential brakes
•  
• MC202 has a brake lever

 

"Differential brakes" is not brake right of left wheel individually?

 

Both "tip toe brakes" and "lever brake" system of game allow do this, each in their particular way, but in the end brake one or other wheel, or both.

 

 

 

Making something work on all aircraft for a newbie with a twist stick which in itself is not realistic at all but if it's an argument thats positive then surely so is the argument that you can use your pedals in all aircraft for those with toe brakes.  Not realistic but the same as a twist stick, giving options to people with the equipment they have.

 

Maybe this was not planed as "newbie help" - but is very welcomed for twist stick people and realistic* tuned with "casual player market" - is just a RoF engine legacy, as (most) WW1 planes has no "tip toe brakes", but "lever brake".

 

* And talking in "realism", is realistic assign Russian planes brakes (exclude i16) in "tip toe brakes" on rudder pedal?

 

If no one try do this, zero problems.

 

Anyway the market now has joystick grips with proper (analog) "brake lever", target for "realistic hardcore" segment players and not newbies: 

 

https://virpil.com/en/shop/grips/vpc-mangoost-50-grip-vpc

Edited April 23, 2017 by Sokol1

[Bearfoot]

The "British/Russian" lever brake system (anyone know the right name for this?) work with compressed air, not hydraulic lines like in "tip toe brakes".

 

So are air reservoir with example 250 Lbs of pressure and a valve under the lever that allow this pressure reach the brake cylinder.

 

Is possible control this pressure transfer, example send only 120 lbs instead 250 lbs like in hydraulic system to reach half brake force instead full?

 

See the brake lever valve under this Yak-1 drawing (right, bottom):

 

This looks that work more as "ON/OFF" that proportional like in "tip toe brakes".

 

See this Hurricane taxi, although not much visible is possible see that pilot use brake lever by pressing and releasing, pressing and releasing... not pressing and hold like in hydraulic "tip toe brake" system.

 

 

But in flight games world people want "exploit" the things as much possible.

 

And in Bo'X has the benefit that when you move rudder bar the brake pressure in one and other wheel is proportional to this movement, allowing 70% of brake force in one wheel and 30% in another, in the above Yak-1 system this is not possible, when you move rudder bar, the non braked wheel has this valve open to vent the pressure to atmosphere, is 0 or 100.

 

 

Thanks!

[Warpig]

The detail that you are missing is that in this game "differential brakes" (Russian brake) work too for German planes - this is need for people that use only "3in1" twist stick's and not rudder pedals -  but became inconvenient for the "cheat" of fake "toe brakes" in pedal for Russian planes. 

 

Or don't assign "toe brakes" (Left brake, Right brake) for German planes and use "Differential brakes" (Wheel brakes) for all planes, in the end the result is the same,

brake only right or left wheel: press the brake pedal for desired wheel and move the rudder bar for the same side.  

I'm a T-Rudder user. Do I have to leave the Left brake and right brake bindings blank for the German planes to brake differential like the Russians?

[Sokol1]

Yes, you don't have "tip-toe brakes" in T-Rudder, so leave game controls options for "Right wheel brakes" and "Left wheel brakes" black and just assign a joy/throttle button for "Wheel brakes" (can use some spare axis, if are practical to use as brake).

 

Press that button, move the rudder.

 

Voila, "differential brakes" for all planes.

 

Don't need use that T-Link software in BoS/BoM, only for DCSW, CloD...etc.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Sokol1

[Warpig]

Yes, you don't have "tip-toe brakes" in T-Rudder, so leave game controls options for "Right wheel brakes" and "Left wheel brakes" black and just assign a joy/throttle button for "Wheel brakes" (can use some spare axis, if are practical to use as brake).

 

Press that button, move the rudder.

 

Voila, "differential brakes" for all planes.

 

Don't need use that T-Link software in BoS/BoM, only for DCSW, CloD...etc.

Thank you.

 

I just setup IL-2 yesterday after not touching it in months. (wasted too much time on other games....). I was expecting the differential behavior, remembering from past discussions, and it didn't seem to be working for me. Looking forward to trying this out.

 

[Sokol1]

Think this video explain this well:

 

 

IL-2 BoS "Wheel brakes" - set for joystick button 1 (trigger), see in VKB Button Test green light.

Press this joy button = both wheels braked.

VKB T-Rudder movement determine what wheel will be braked, see in DView.

 

Notice that if button is pressed and hold, rudder moved to right, the wheel in this side is braked, but holding the button and moving the rudder for left the brake force is transferred do left wheel (and vice versa).

Edited May 1, 2017 by Sokol1