Shooting Skills in VR

[dburne]

I am curious on others experiences on this as well.

 

One thing I have pleasantly found, is how much better I am in my shooting in a dogfight that I ever was previousy prior to VR. I remember well getting so dang frustrated previously trying to get a bead on that plane in front of me, while trying to stay on his tail , leading him during a turning engagement.

 

Now, it seems to come much more natural to me and I have much better results with it than ever did before.

Even with the gun-sight being a little difficult ( seems to take up too much area to me) I do not have much trouble just judging and adjusting by the tracers for where I want to hit and how to lead.

 

I certainly am not saying I am an Ace now at it by any means, but I am much more comfortable and confident with it now than I ever have been before.

Of course the planes being virtually life sized now helps as well.

 

I have not tried any ground pounding yet, going to have to give that a try here soon...

Edited April 15, 2017 by dburne

[HagarTheHorrible]

I think having a good grasp of the fundamentals of deflection shooting is especially relevant in VR as I think target perception is far more realistic. It would be interesting to compare shooting with iron sights by comparison and the effect that has on success.

[Bearfoot]

Yep.

 

I think that the depth perception helps a LOT with deflection shooting as well as judging vertical lead in tail shooting, while the 1-to-1 6DOF tracking helps a LOT with situational awareness.

 

And by a "LOT", I mean like a different universe!

 

The situational awareness, especially, is not just quantitatively better, but qualitative: you can intuitively cognize where everything is in space around you and the rates that they are moving relative to you, to the point that you can track them in your head even after you lose sight of them (under nose, wing, etc.), and then turn and look exactly where they are at the right time and the right place.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

 

 

The situational awareness, especially, is not just quantitatively better, but qualitative: you can intuitively cognize where everything is in space around you and the rates that they are moving relative to you, to the point that you can track them in your head even after you lose sight of them (under nose, wing, etc.), and then turn and look exactly where they are at the right time and the right place.

 

 

It has nothing to do with VR :-)  we do it all time .... yes yours attention is focused because of separation from other distraction, some ppl can focus in front of monitor too 

[OrLoK]

My kill ratio is way up in VR.

 

For me, its like having a new accurate controller after using a poor one.

 

Im still no ace but it does feel like ive improved a lot compared to my track ir flights.

[HagarTheHorrible]

It has nothing to do with VR :-) we do it all time .... yes yours attention is focused because of separation from other distraction, some ppl can focus in front of monitor too

 

I don't think that's quite true. TrackIR and positional awareness, particularly tracking multiple objects of interest did not go hand in hand although, as with everything practice certainly helps and some people are inevitably more flexible or adaptable than others. Edited April 15, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

All I can say is that 'if' aiming and scoring hits on enemy craft can be demonstratively proven better against other non VR pilots.... there will be wild stampede of pilots to go VR.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Salutations,

 

All I can say is that 'if' aiming and scoring hits on enemy craft can be demonstratively proven better against other non VR pilots.... there will be wild stampede of pilots to go VR.

Pesonnaly i think it's more challenging but practice and applying the correct rules regarding range and offset pay dividends. If there is an advantage it is having a better understanding of the airspace around you, your relative position and the likely trajectory of your opponent. It's not all roses though, low resolution is a disadvantage, the next generation hmds (if nobody blows up Korea that is) might well be pretty perfect as to being perfectly acceptable instead of a monitor that it's not even a decision. Edited April 15, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[HagarTheHorrible]

I disagree with my previous comment,partially. Boom and zoom is easier because you can judge closure, distance and speed better and I also think snap shooting is easier because you can be more aware of your opponents trajectory, earlier.

[Bearfoot]

 

 

It has nothing to do with VR :-)  we do it all time .... yes yours attention is focused because of separation from other distraction, some ppl can focus in front of monitor too 

 

 

 It is not an attention thing

 

It is the fact that you do not need to learn to translate pixel displacements in 2D to mapping them in space in 3D inside your head. 

 

People can definitely learn to do it, and do it very well in 2D. This is a learned skill, and some people have mastered it (not me!).

 

But the fact is that you don't have to learn to do it in VR.

 

You just use the your normal intuition, which s natural, because you have been doing it that way since you were born.

 

And that makes a difference!

 

So, my (speculative) proposition is this: a TrackIR/2D ace might be at no inherent disadvantage at all at a VR newbie, can bring his/her full skills to bear to swat said newbie out of sky; but a TrackIR/2D newbie will (probably) find themselves (initially) outclassed by a VR newbie. I

[kissklas]

I think perception of depth has really improved my aim. It's easier to "feel" when the plane is at range. Earlier I often mistook the distance by a lot... I have finally started hitting things after VR came and I am super rusty as well after a long break from playing.

 

Anyone else noticed the same?

[OrLoK]

Ive noticed the same thing. Ive gone from zero kills to 1 or more per sortie if i live long enough.

 

I still think track ir players have an advantage over VR flyers though.

[SYN_Skydance]

I agree.

 

The main advantage is being able to see another aircraft in 3D space and time, which helps with hitting it by adjusting where the tracers are going. The gunsights are not usable for me. I can only see them in one eye at a time.

 

The main disadvantage (apart from the spotting) is not being able to check your six. IRL when you look over your shoulder, you can turn your head part of the way then look through the corners of your eyes to see further around. It doesn't work the same in VR.

 

Has anyone set up a snap view to "check six" in VR? In DCS I used to press the hat switch forward to look in th rear view mirror, in the Spitfire, whilst using trackIR. It gave me a steadier view. The button is still set the same when using VR and I can still use it by press the hat switch. The change of view doesn't disorientate me so I guess by pressing buttons the look over the left and right shoulders should work OK. I had my hat switch set to do this in RoF and that worked well in trackIR.

Edited April 19, 2017 by SYN_Skydance

[dburne]

I think something else that has really helped  me in both my flying and shooting skills in VR, in addition to VR itself helping them:

 

I have a Warthog joystick with a small extension - 7.5cm.  I previously had it on the right hand side of my desk, on a slide out panel.

 

With using VR, I sat that puppy right on the edge of the middle of my desk. Could not do that previously as it would have blocked my monitor.

It just seems much more natural and comfortable now.

[Felefun]

Yeah, the depth perception in VR is really a game changer when it comes to accurate aiming.

 

I have some experience with shooting with tracers from the army (50 cal/12,7 mm), and I have to say this game mimics the experience pretty well. The fact that you can see/sense the ballistic path of the projectile combined with the added perception of distance to the target really makes the difference. This becomes especially apparent when aiming at ground targets. It's just soo much easier to put the rounds accurately on target.

[HagarTheHorrible]

 This becomes especially apparent when aiming at ground targets. It's just soo much easier to put the rounds accurately on target.

 

 

.....and then avoid following them in  !!!!!

[LLv24_Zami]

You are right, shooting and especially deflection shots are much easier in VR in my experience. It`s much more natural.

[HunDread]

I noticed too that my aiming has improved from total crap to around average. ID'ing is quite more difficult though.

[kissklas]

I agree.

 

The main advantage is being able to see another aircraft in 3D space and time, which helps with hitting it by adjusting where the tracers are going. The gunsights are not usable for me. I can only see them in one eye at a time.

 

The main disadvantage (apart from the spotting) is not being able to check your six. IRL when you look over your shoulder, you can turn your head part of the way then look through the corners of your eyes to see further around. It doesn't work the same in VR.

 

Has anyone set up a snap view to "check six" in VR? In DCS I used to press the hat switch forward to look in th rear view mirror, in the Spitfire, whilst using trackIR. It gave me a steadier view. The button is still set the same when using VR and I can still use it by press the hat switch. The change of view doesn't disorientate me so I guess by pressing buttons the look over the left and right shoulders should work OK. I had my hat switch set to do this in RoF and that worked well in trackIR.

 

The gunsight gives you issues? Mine seem to work well as long as I focus through the sight and onto a distant target.

 

For checking six, get a swivel chair! It works pretty good:p 

Anyways I kinda like having the physical limitations that a pilot has. You can still get a good rear view, using the indents with windows on behind the seat that some planes have, as well as letting go of the throttle and turning the upper body with the head.

[Bearfoot]

For checking six, get a swivel chair! It works pretty good:p 

 

So, I've heard a few people suggest the swivel chair, and I did try it. But it for me it seems that the main challenge is not so much not being able to twist into position, but needing to take your feet off the rudders (and potentially as well accidental/incidental unwanted displacement of the stick) to do so. The swivel chair does not help with this? Am I missing something? Or do you folks just take your feet off rudders?

 

In any case, like you, I agree that the challenge of checking six is not a "problem" but a "feature": a better and more authentic replication of the actual limitations of the real life experience over what seems to me now like the insanely artificial and game-like TrackIR Exorcist-style rotation! 

[Nibbio]

yeah I dropped the swivel chair many years ago when I got my first rudder pedals

[Maxiku]

I'm still pretty new to flying in VR (HTC Vive) but I am loving it so far. I never got on that well with Track IR so I am delighted to be able to fly with a VR headset.

 

Well done devs!

[kissklas]

So, I've heard a few people suggest the swivel chair, and I did try it. But it for me it seems that the main challenge is not so much not being able to twist into position, but needing to take your feet off the rudders (and potentially as well accidental/incidental unwanted displacement of the stick) to do so. The swivel chair does not help with this? Am I missing something? Or do you folks just take your feet off rudders?

I have gliders on my chair and I've mounted the stick on an adjustable TV mount arm at the base of the chair. This way the stick comes with me in the turn. And the feet stays on the pedals. I turn the chair a few degrees, my upper body, and then my head. That way I reach almost all the way. Far enough to look past the seat anyways:)

[SYN_Skydance]

I can see how a swivel chair would work because you wouldn't have to swivel all that much but I would have to change my setup quite a bit because ATM my chair is on two sliders that tuck neatly under my desk with the rails sliding either side of my rudder pedals when I'm done.

 

As for the gun sights (only tried Russian planes) I can only get a full circular gun site with one eye at a time. If I use both eyes, to look at the sites, the circles overlap. I know you do have to focus your eyes differently to use the sites like in the DCS Spitfire.

[dburne]

I use a swivel chair, and honestly it helps a little but not all that much. Only so far one can twist while maintaining control.

[OrLoK]

Agreed. Swivel here, but as feet on pedals and hands on...HOTAS theres very little available swivel movement one can do.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I switched back to a normal chair with a low back. I just drop the throttle, grab my desk like it's a grab handle in part of the plane and twist my body when I need to check 6.

 

My wingmen on TS were laughing at my voice change in comms as I twist around checking high 6 while talking to them as there is some effort required to do so. Apparently sounded like I started pulling some small G's hahaha.

[kissklas]

I switched back to a normal chair with a low back. I just drop the throttle, grab my desk like it's a grab handle in part of the plane and twist my body when I need to check 6.

 

My wingmen on TS were laughing at my voice change in comms as I twist around checking high 6 while talking to them as there is some effort required to do so. Apparently sounded like I started pulling some small G's hahaha.

 

Haha yeah, voice goes all strained as you turn around. I have the same thing.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Haha yeah, voice goes all strained as you turn around. I have the same thing.

Can I suggest a looser pair of trousers might help. If you doubt my words of wisdom then search out "The lion sleeps tonight" by Tight fit and all will be revealed (not sure I want to try and visualise that last bit, yuk).

[OrLoK]

You guys fly with clothes on?

[Gunsmith86]

 

You guys fly with clothes on?[/quote

Yes ofcurse without i always get the wrong joy-stick!

[HunDread]

You guys fly with clothes on?

HAHA. This was good.

 

Anyway the next day after VR support I had a trip to IKEA to get my next PC accessory. Actually I get my feet off the rudder while checking 6 in the swivel chair. Can't really check it otherwise. 

[kissklas]

Can I suggest a looser pair of trousers might help. If you doubt my words of wisdom then search out "The lion sleeps tonight" by Tight fit and all will be revealed (not sure I want to try and visualise that last bit, yuk).

I always fly wearing my spandex tights! I feel so aerodynamic...

[dburne]

You guys fly with clothes on?

 

Ok now that is a little strange....

 

I ain't tellin!

 

 

[Wolf8312]

Strange thing is I used to get more tired more quickly with track IR than I do VR, track IR just kinda used to annoy me though it was better than a monitor by miles. Personally think that turning to check a six in VR works exactly as it would in real life in a cramped cockpit you wouldn't be able to quite turn all the way around.

Edited April 22, 2017 by TheNoobleWurtha

[dburne]

Well I have made it to Level 5 so far in the Stalingrad campaign , pretty sure the AI have already advanced to level 10 LOL.

 

So I am flying a ground attack mission . My goal, to destroy a train.

The first time I tried it, a couple of 109's got on my tail - and nailed me.

Second time - AA fire got me after I crossed into enemy territory - lucky shot, torn my plane in half. Not pretty.

Third time - made it to the target.

Lined up on the train, dropped my two bombs and took a couple railroad cars out. So far so good.

Made another pass - plenty of gun ammo - took another car out with my guns. Woohoo , doing good this time.

 

Consider heading home as I was sure I would have successful mission - saw the locomotive steaming along. Got greedy.

Set up another pass, coming in at a little steep angle. Line up my gunsight on the locomotive, start firing - and yep, flew right into the ground - augh!

 

Note to self: Don't get greedy!

 

Maybe will try again in the morning when I am fresh.

Edited April 21, 2017 by dburne

[Wolf8312]

lol I always do that get greedy and flame out, you gotta try fly as you would in real life and do no more than is expected of you and avoid stupid risks but with no fear of death it's hard to control yoursel. I think it would be much better and the achievements in game would actually mean something, if each time you die all medals and achievements were taken from you, it would give a feeling of something to lose and aim for and also create tension. I hate modern dumbed down games in which no matter what you do, you progress no matter what, with nothing to lose there is no challenge and little to aim towards gaining. I've died a thousand times over but have kept all my medals, why must everything be so easy these days?

[VR-DriftaholiC]

In real flight school they do teach you to roll and pitch the plane slightly to help check your six. Just apply the same principle. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by driftaholic

[Bearfoot]

In real flight school they do teach you to roll and pitch the plane slightly to help check your six. Just apply the same principle. 

 

"Never fly straight and level in a combat zone!"

[SYN_Skydance]

In real flight school they do teach you to roll and pitch the plane slightly to help check your six. Just apply the same principle.

 

+1

I still can't get the gun sites to overlap fully. Can the distance be altered in a config file?