2K vs 4K skins - what am I missing?

[TG-55Panthercules]

I finally decided to try to do a 4K skin, to see if I could tell the difference between the 4K and the old 2K ones.  So I took one of my old 2K skins, resized it to 4096x4096, and copied the color scheme/markings layers into one of the new 4K templates.

 

Everything seemed to work OK during the PhotoShop process, but TBH I couldn't really tell much difference/improvement between the old one and the new one.

 

So either my old eyes just aren't good enough to tell the difference any more, or there was something flawed with my methodology (quite possible), or there just isn't enough difference between the two to warrant the trouble.

 

So, to try to help me decide whether to keep digging into this with all my other skins, or just to be happy with the old 2K ones I have and find something better to do with my time, I thought I'd solicit advice from the community here as to whether people can tell the difference.  Thus the poll - if you can spare a minute, please vote as to which of the screenshots below you believe is the 4K skin, and which one is the 2K skin (There's no significance to the black vs white wing markings - I just did that so I could tell them apart):

 

"A" Skin:

 

 

"B" Skin:

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[Jason_Williams]

Just re-sizing really doesn't do 4K justice. Try downloading the ones done from scratch with the new templates and normal maps.

 

Jason

[SOLIDKREATE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ What Jason said. I am re drawing everything for the 110. And making all cockpit internals for the aircraft skin; not the actual cockpit.

[TG-55Panthercules]

Just re-sizing really doesn't do 4K justice. Try downloading the ones done from scratch with the new templates and normal maps.

 

Jason

 

Jason - not exactly possible since I'm talking about my own personal skins here.  I used one of the new 4K templates and bump/normal maps files someone made available (ICDP, here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28462-macchi-c202-folgore-4096x4096-4k-template-normal-map-and-ski/ ), and just used my old 2K .psd file (up-sized to 4096x4096) to copy in my custom camo and markings layers (to avoid having to re-paint those colored areas) - I'm using all the other layers of the new 4K template.  Is it really going to accomplish much to create new layers and manually repaint those colored areas in the new templates instead of duplicating those colored areas from my old 2K skin .psd files?

Edited April 15, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

2K CANNOT be Resized to a true 4K texture
(it will always be 2K in terms of Detail)
it might increase in physical size but the texture still only can have 2048x2048 pixels of detail you cannot magically make more)
2K (4.1 million pixels of information)
4K (16.7 million pixels of information)

You can only go down.
So to make 4K wing panel you need textures that are native 4K tho 8K better than downsize them.

Really the best (tho very hard and long work also lots of compression can make it look worse if bad methods used).
Would be to say take a 4K picture for each feature even a single bolt in 4K then Shrink to fit into the space and resample entire thing to only 4K,

[TG-55Panthercules]

2K CANNOT be Resized to a true 4K texture

(it will always be 2K in terms of Detail)

it might increase in physical size but the texture still only can have 2048x2048 pixels of detail you cannot magically make more)

2K (4.1 million pixels of information)

4K (16.7 million pixels of information)

 

You can only go down.

So to make 4K wing panel you need textures that are native 4K tho 8K better than downsize them.

 

Really the best (tho very hard and long work also lots of compression can make it look worse if bad methods used).

Would be to say take a 4K picture for each feature even a single bolt in 4K then Shrink to fit into the space and resample entire thing to only 4K,

 

I don't know what any of that has to do with what I'm trying to do here.  Wouldn't all of that have been done by the person who created the 4K template?  I went back in and hid all the old 2K layers I copied in, and re-painted all those layers from scratch on new layers I created in the 4K template, and still couldn't tell any difference.  Is there maybe a problem with the 4K template I used not being as good as some of the other ones?  Or are you maybe supposed to save down the .dds files from the 4K templates using different settings than we've been using for the 2K templates? (I checked my 4K skin files and they're way bigger (about 21MB) than the 2K skin files have been).

Edited April 15, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[BlackHellHound1]

I put together 3 images that show you the differences between 2K, 2K upscale and true 4K

Just to clarify. The 2K upscale is the 2K photoshop skin file upscaled and then saved as 4K. It is NOT a 2K dds file upscaled!

 

 

 

2K skin

 

2K Upscaled

 

True 4K

 

 

 

 

You can clearly see the difference between the 2K and 4K skins. But you can hardly see any difference between the 2K and 2K upscale.

If you want a 4K skin. You should also make it in 4K and not upscale 2K. Simply does not work!

 

BlackHellHound1

 

[TG-55Panthercules]

I put together 3 images that show you the differences between 2K, 2K upscale and true 4K

Just to clarify. The 2K upscale is the 2K photoshop skin file upscaled and then saved as 4K. It is NOT a 2K dds file upscaled!

 

 

 

2K skin

 

2K Upscaled

 

True 4K

 

 

 

 

You can clearly see the difference between the 2K and 4K skins. But you can hardly see any difference between the 2K and 2K upscale.

If you want a 4K skin. You should also make it in 4K and not upscale 2K. Simply does not work!

 

BlackHellHound1

 

 

I get that "If you want a 4K skin. You should also make it in 4K and not upscale 2K", but that's exactly what I did.  I didn't just upscale my old 2K skin and resave it as 4K.  The only reason I "upscaled" my old 2K skin was to get the camo/markings areas properly delineated.  Although I originally tried using those "upscaled" layers (by duplicating them into the 4K template) to avoid having to paint those areas again (the only thing those upscaled layers had on them was the colored paint - no details), I later went in and threw away those upscaled layers and created brand new layers in the 4K template and repainted those areas from scratch.  Still not seeing any significant differences between the 4K skin (done completely from a 4K template - no upscaling involved) and the old 2K skin (see 4K screenshot below):

 

 

Has anybody else used that particular 4K template (for the MC202)?  Maybe there's some issue with it?  Is there another, universally acknowledged really good 4K template I should maybe try to run another test with?

Edited July 1, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[OrLoK]

Excuse my slightly OT question, but is there any point for me to use a 4k skin in VR?

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Excuse my slightly OT question, but is there any point for me to use a 4k skin in VR?

 

It is a 300% higher resolution of the plane's skin.

Edited April 15, 2017 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[BlackHellHound1]

 

 

It is a 300% higher resolution of the plane's skin.

 

 

It is 400% mate... it is 4 times the resolution.

 

But to add to the 4K over 2K discussion. In simple general camouflage patterns, you won't see that much difference. You will see the difference in small detail.

Panel lines, letters, emblems, rivets, screws and other small detail is much more accurate. It is there that you see the differences. Not in blurry camouflage patterns.

 

To see this for yourself, take a look at the small detail on your plane and zoom in a little. You will see how much sharper 4K really is!

 

BlackHellHound1

 

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

 

 

It is 400% mate... it is 4 times the resolution.

 

 

Ahh, no it's 300% higher (as in percent increase)

 

(2048 X 2048) = 4,194,304

4096 X 4096) =  16,777,216

 

16,777,216 - 4,194,304 = 12,582,912 / 4,194,304 = 3.0 X 100 = 300%

Edited April 15, 2017 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[OrLoK]

It is a 300% higher resolution of the plane's skin.

I understand that, but will it become evident in VR  rather than on screen (im assuming yes but one never knows (especially with my hangover))

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

OrLoK, this guy had the same question and he seemed to think it made a big difference in VR.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28695-vr-and-new-skinstextures-question-anyone/

[TG-55Panthercules]

 

 

It is 400% mate... it is 4 times the resolution.

 

But to add to the 4K over 2K discussion. In simple general camouflage patterns, you won't see that much difference. You will see the difference in small detail.

Panel lines, letters, emblems, rivets, screws and other small detail is much more accurate. It is there that you see the differences. Not in blurry camouflage patterns.

 

To see this for yourself, take a look at the small detail on your plane and zoom in a little. You will see how much sharper 4K really is!

 

BlackHellHound1

 

 

 

 

Thanks - that confirms what I was thinking - it looks like the differences are going to be much too subtle to be worth the extra effort, at least for my old eyes.  If I have to zoom in closer than that and stare intently at my wing to really notice the difference, then it's nothing I'm ever going to see since I'm gonna be spending all my time scanning the ground for targets and the sky for enemies.  Glad you youngsters can see the difference (or at least some of you can - lots of wrong answers to the poll question above ), but it looks like I'll just stick with my old skins and spend the extra time trying to learn to fly more of these birds.

[OrLoK]

OrLoK, this guy had the same question and he seemed to think it made a big difference in VR.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28695-vr-and-new-skinstextures-question-anyone/

Thanks! sorry for interrupting the thread

[ICDP]

To the OP.  For me it is easy to see the difference in game and I am 49 with correctional lenses

 

Your screenshots do not do justice to how it actually looks in game due to resizing and jpg compression loss.  Though image A is the 4K skin.

 

As BHH states, it's the better details such as sharper panels and rivets along with stenciling that makes 4K better.  I do understand what you meant by saying you only resized the camo and markings layers but without full size no loss images it's hard to see the actual difference.  Even when I post full 2460x1440 res screenshots they don't do the in game 4K look justice IMHO.

 

Though even with jpeg compression loss and resizing from my native 4k, the differences are very noticeable.

 

 

[TG-55Panthercules]

OK - since there was some resizing/jpegging of the screenshots in the previous tests, I thought I'd just post a couple of un-touched screenshots for comparison:

 

One:

2017_4_15__23_27_7.bmp

 

Two:

2017_4_15__23_24_39.bmp

 

I know an awful lot of work had to go into creating these 4K templates and stuff, but I'm still not seeing enough of a difference.  But again, I'm glad some people can, and I'm glad there are folks willing to spend the time and share their efforts to try to make a great game even better.

 

[edit] had to resize images smaller to upload here since Photobucket broke links to original screenshots.

Edited July 1, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

ALSO PLEASE NOTE...

YOU CAN ONLY SEE 4K SKINS INGAME IF YOU ARE RUNNING ON ULTRA QUALITY PRESET
HIGH/MEDIUM - 2K
LOW seems to be about 1K)

But yes where use you will see a difference on VR with 4K skins.
You can even see the difference in VR if you running the game @ 1024 x 768 (on ultra preset)
The Texture detail is evident at any resolution

[BlackHellHound1]

YOU CAN ONLY SEE 4K SKINS INGAME IF YOU ARE RUNNING ON ULTRA QUALITY PRESET

HIGH/MEDIUM - 2K

LOW seems to be about 1K)

 

This is not completely correct. 

On ultra, high and balanced you will see 4K as 4K without any loss of detail. Only when you go to the Low setting is the level of detail reduced to 2K!

See pictures below!

 

Take a close look at the letters on the wing. They are clearly of the same quality.

 

 

 

This top picture is taken with the ultra preset. Which I usually run.

 

 

This second picture is the same skin on the balanced preset.