How to deal with canopy collisions?

[RustNeverSleeps]

I started a thread for this on the general discussion but just realized there is a VR board. I want to see where folks are on this issue.

 

In sims like DCS and Warthunder, your head is not restricted by the canopy which allows for some liberties in regards to what a pilot would be able to see in reality.  In BOS, your head collides, a THUD sound is heard, and you can't go any further. In fact the camera seems to move a bit on its own back towards the center of the cockpit (makes my stomach turn a bit). 

 

I think the idea here is sound and very important. We do need to prevent people taking advantage of too much mobility. However, the THUD, combined with what appears to be far too small hitboxes for the canopy really makes flying most of the fighters a bother. I get near constant THUDS and can really not look back to clear my six without hitting the canopy no matter what I try. 

 

I think the developers should consider fading the screen to black or grey when you stick your head out of the canopy. This achieves the purpose but not introduce camera movement that does not align with the players actual head movements (a big nono for VR for VR sickness reasons).  Thoughts? Who likes the THUD and restrictions? 

 

I know this can be turned off but in most multiplayer servers the option is turned on server side so we don't have much choice really. 

[CIA_Matabo]

Hate the 'Thud'.  It has to go.  VR is matching reality so thus the head restrictions.  We need a VR only server for IL2 so we can really put this new tech through a test. 

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Agreed, the thud is over done. But I believe they devs will listen to our feedback and can see it being smoothed pit in some fasion.

 

The bigger question is what will they do with the guy they hired to sit behind the cockpit and kick you every time you rub the virtual glass of the canopy? ;p

[Bearfoot]

Does the free movement of the head give you that much more of an unfair/unrealistic advantage than TrackIR's near-360-degree-view-with-barely-a-glance? Wonder if it might be better just to get server admins / player community to recognize this and leave the restriction off? I do not think about or do it deliberately, but it does happen accidentally, and on those occasions the sounds + disconnect between physical and simulated movement is really icky. 

[=IL2AU=chappyj]

-1 to the thud sound. 

i have no problem with the restriction on movement.

edit: ive decided i do have a problem with it. 

 

 in trackir i had far better ability to see *around* the headrest etc due to FOV adjustments etc. so this attempt to remove an unfair advantage actually doesn't address existing advantages that you could get by zooming out your fov on a 2d monitor. 

Whats more the current restrictions are more restrictive than a Real life comparison as the collision calc seems to be happening at the front of the HMD. 
The 'return to center' movement when u collide with some canopies (JU87 tailgunner i noticed it the most) is completely unnecessary and unrealistic and a vomit inducer to boot.

Edited April 14, 2017 by =WFPK=chappyj

[Nibbio]

The perception of narrow boundaries may be due to the fact that the head tracking sensor is in fact tracking the visor sitting four inches in front of our face. If this is the case a simple vector correction in the sw would solve the problem for all cockpits at once.

[dburne]

Does the free movement of the head give you that much more of an unfair/unrealistic advantage than TrackIR's near-360-degree-view-with-barely-a-glance? Wonder if it might be better just to get server admins / player community to recognize this and leave the restriction off? I do not think about or do it deliberately, but it does happen accidentally, and on those occasions the sounds + disconnect between physical and simulated movement is really icky. 

 

Agreed.

 

One would have to be incredibly and almost abnormally agile in order to be able to maintain control and dogfight in their plane whilst moving far enough to even get outside the cockpit.  After all it is 1:1 movement and very much unlike the unnatural movement of the Track IR as you mentioned.

Me personally , I disabled that restrict feature from the get go so do not have to deal with it. I never really find myself outside the canopy.

 

Maybe I am just too disciplined lol.

[marklar]

 

 

In fact the camera seems to move a bit on its own back towards the center of the cockpit (makes my stomach turn a bit). 

 

 

I've just taken Bf109 for a quick flight and this camera issue is a game breaker for me. Even when looking around to track an enemy the bloody camera moves forward, backward, left and right. It makes me sick. I tried to turn off movement restrictions in the options but there is no difference whether it's on or off. 

[dburne]

 

 

I've just taken Bf109 for a quick flight and this camera issue is a game breaker for me. Even when looking around to track an enemy the bloody camera moves forward, backward, left and right. It makes me sick. I tried to turn off movement restrictions in the options but there is no difference whether it's on or off. 

 

 

It sounds like something may be amiss there in your setup.

 

I have been flying VR with the Rift in BoS since the day it was released, and have never seen this behavior. My tracking is perfect. The only time I have seen any head movement is while the game is paused.

 

You might try resetting your sensor setup, first in Oculus and then in Steam VR. Insure your sensors are seeing the headset all around.

[marklar]

It's not my setup, it works fine in War Thunder, DCS Worlds and all other games. It's that useless "Limit VR view" option which for some reason cannot be turned off. Bf109's cockpit is very small and cramped. Every time I move my head the game moves the entire cockpit away. When I sit in Bf110 it's much better because its cockpit is bigger.

[dburne]

It's not my setup, it works fine in War Thunder, DCS Worlds and all other games. It's that useless "Limit VR view" option which for some reason cannot be turned off. Bf109's cockpit is very small and cramped. Every time I move my head the game moves the entire cockpit away. When I sit in Bf110 it's much better because its cockpit is bigger.

 

It can be turned off in the game's settings.

I disabled it first thing.

[marklar]

I disabled it as well, but for some reason does not make any difference. The game still limits my head movements.

[Sneaksie]

If you're playing on Expert difficulty, the view limits will be active regardless of this option (Expert blocks external views and other unrealistic options).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

At least now I know to not blame my mechanic for all of the canopy smudges and scratches. It's those @#$# VR guys!

[marklar]

If you're playing on Expert difficulty, the view limits will be active regardless of this option (Expert blocks external views and other unrealistic options).

 

It explains everything.

 

I don't want to speak for others but VR limitation boundaries should be expanded, at least for Bf109 (all variants). What is now is way to small and it's not comfortable for my eyes and stomach. It seems like I have only 10cm room in every direction. 

[Lensman1945]

+1 for the OP's suggestion for grey or black out. Any messing with the camera movement is uncomfortable and ruins the immersion. 

[RustNeverSleeps]

It can be turned off in the game's settings.

I disabled it first thing.

 

But unfortunately not in multiplayer as it is a server side setting.

[Gunsmith86]

I hope they remove the sound everything else i like about the canopy collisions.

[SgtCrise]

Well, let's see.

The thud needs to be toned down or just go. It's quite funny at first, but quickly gets annoying.

As far as boundaries go, having them hardcoded on expert makes flying most of the fighters impossible. Dragging entire plane with your head not only ruins the immersion, it also quickly makes me nauseaus. Bf-109, as people above mentioned suffers from this so much, even looking to the side is a pain in the ass.

Now about looking back and "unfair advantage", which is pretty much a deal breaker for me. When you want to look back IRL, you turn your head about 100-110 degrees to the side, then turn your eye all the way to the back and can see. For most people this is possible without turning your body at all. In VR, your FOV is limited by the hardware itself, not to mention that the picture is clearer in the center. Thus you are forced to turn your whole head about 170 degrees to the back, which also means turning your entire body. Not only this is uncomfortable and exhausting after a while, but in Bf-109, you constantly bang your head on the cockpit, dragging it around and getting sick, not being able to look back anyways.

 

So far, Bf-109 and Fw-190 are way too uncomfortable for me too even bother. P-40 was okay-ish, though not for checking your six.

Even He-111 suffers from this to some extent, when trying to look to the left, but it's bearable, so I think the bombers are okay.

Meanwhile TrackIR suffers from none of those problems at all, as you only move your virtual viewpoint around and don't seem to have any sort of virtual head, at least not to this extent.

To sum it up, VR so far seems to be a fun gimmick, but worthless for flying in multiplayer and/or expert, unless in a bomber.

There are also some technical problems I've encountered, like wobbling of picture past or in front (!) of spinning prop and the map blinking in and out of existance, but I blame those on my rig and not the game itself.

[RustNeverSleeps]

I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call this implementation a gimmick. It's really damn good. That's why this one issue sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

I think anybody saying it's not an issue either doesn't fly VR, or doesn't fly multiplayer in fighters because it is damn near impossible to clear your six, or even as you say tricky to look left and right sometimes.

 

Everything else is amazing!

[Gunsmith86]

I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call this implementation a gimmick. It's really damn good. That's why this one issue sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

I think anybody saying it's not an issue either doesn't fly VR, or doesn't fly multiplayer in fighters because it is damn near impossible to clear your six, or even as you say tricky to look left and right sometimes.

 

 

I think its not so much a issue with the game but more a technical limitation of the available VR devices we use. They are far from perfect for what we want to do with them.

Because of that we run into trouble such as those were it is near impossible to clear your six in some planes. To make this easier we would simple need a VR device that has a much larger field of view so we would no longer need to turn our head that far. But since these better VR devices are not available yet we have to change the way we fly and change course to clear our six or fly in groups and clear each other.

If someone thinks he can fly with VR against other people without VR now and have a fair opportunity to win than he is a fool. Until that is possible it will take at least to more years.

Use VR for fun and your monitor if you want to win after all we can use now the best of both worlds!

Edited April 14, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[dburne]

 

Use VR for fun and your monitor if you want to win after all we can use now the best of both worlds!

 

I don't think I could go back to gaming on my 2d monitor again. I tried it, and it was just not the same for me.

 

Probably a good thing then that I only fly SP at this time, I am more into SP campaigns than anything - always have been.

 

Though I may give MP a try someday but that may be a ways off...

[=IL2AU=chappyj]

Vr overall is well implemented its just the decisions around cockpit restriction. Camera re-center and thud noise that are not quite right.

The looking back with narrow fov is the hardwares own limitation and not the developers fault or problem. But it can certainly be helped with the above changes around head restrictions in the cockpit.

 

Personally I think just remove the collider restriction is the easiest option from a dev standpoint but if they really do insist on it for 'fairness' (arguably not any advantage imo) then expand it to slightly larger than cockpit dimensions and remove the thud and camera re-center at the very least

[TG-55Panthercules]

Well, I don't really play MP much (yet), and I don't have VR (yet), so I'm sure my comments will be discounted by some, but this seems pretty simple to me.  Whether I'm looking around using a mouse, trackball, hat switch, TIR or VR, if I'm supposed to be inside a closed cockpit then there should be limitations on where/how far my virtual head can go before it hits the surrounding cockpit enclosure.  In a perfect world, of course, those limits should be the same for every type of look-around methodology/device.  The question is not (IMHO, despite what some posters seem to think) whether it's easier to turn your virtual head to check six with a TIR than with a VR because you don't have to twist your neck as far - heck, if I use a hat switch/snap/pan view to look backwards I don't have to twist my neck at all.  The point is that however I turn my virtual head around (hat switch, TIR, VR, whatever), once I'm looking backward (or leaning sideways or whatever) I should see basically the same view regardless of what looking device/method I'm using.  

 

Although I haven't actually tested it yet (though now I'm curious and will have to do this sometime), I assume that if I try to stand up with my TIR and my canopy closed I'll hit my virtual head on the top of the canopy and not be allowed to stick my head up above the canopy.  If that's the case, then that ought to happen with VR as well - seems self-evident to me at least.

 

If for some reason, despite the good intentions and best efforts of the devs to date, the current implementation of the VR head movement limits is more constrictive than the limits for the other look-around methods, then that would seem to be a legitimate point for the VR crowd to raise and ask (nicely) to be addressed if possible by retaining the basic concept of the head movement limits but tweaking them somewhat to allow VR to achieve the same sort of head movement possibilities as the other methods.  I think that's all that many of the posters are suggesting, though it's hard to tell sometimes because of all the drama that tends to break out in these threads from time to time.

[Thad]

I'd just like to share from personal experience... banging ones head against the canopy does NOT improve ones flying ability.

[VRtrout]

I think the developers should consider fading the screen to black or grey when you stick your head out of the canopy. This achieves the purpose but not introduce camera movement that does not align with the players actual head movements (a big nono for VR for VR sickness reasons). 

This is the solution.   Every other VR game that I can think of that prevents players clipping through things to cheat uses fade to black/grey as a solution.  Onward, rec room, Obduction, The Gallery, ect.    Back a year ago earlier VR games experimented with floating the world under you as a method of re-aligning and it did not stick since it made people sick.  

 

The default VR view in the cockpit should be 100% fixed in place unless the player re-centers it manually.  Currently the plane shifts around when paused, not good for the stomach.  And if you play on a restricted view server the players view should fade to black when clipping outside of the canopy rather than the bonk and forced re-center people are complaining about.

Edited April 18, 2017 by VRtrout

[OrLoK]

Id prefer a fade rather than the "slide" effect.

 

apart from this, the VR implementation is epic.

Edited April 18, 2017 by OrLoK

[HagarTheHorrible]

Is the limit for head movement set by the supposed cockpit boundaries, more or less, or by the amount of travel from the centred head position ?

[RustNeverSleeps]

Is the limit for head movement set by the supposed cockpit boundaries, more or less, or by the amount of travel from the centred head position ?

 

 

Good question and it is unclear at this time as far as I know. The boundaries don't seem to align entirely with the cockpits. That or our virtual heads are really a bit too large so we hit it on things when we are still quite a ways away. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Good question and it is unclear at this time as far as I know. The boundaries don't seem to align entirely with the cockpits. That or our virtual heads are really a bit too large so we hit it on things when we are still quite a ways away.

 

The way to check would be to adjust head position when in 2D, on a monitor, maybe to extremes of travel for testing purposes, and then checking restrictions. At the moment I get a thud every time I look sideways in the 111, as my head hits the headrest, but if I lean forward slightly and look left/right then that stops.

[Felefun]

The VR experience in this sim is simply outstanding, but I can't STAND the  "Limit VR view" implementation as is.

 

I like to fly with expert settings, so this setting is apparently forced on when I do.

 

The biggest problem for me is that I have the habit of leaning forward a bit to get my head turned around enough to check six. This causes the view limitation to kick in even though there should be plenty of room in the virtual cockpit. This makes me very dizzy. This bug is also apparent when leaning in to the gunsight. For example: The view limitation starts kicking in approx 30-40 cm before the edge of the gunsight in the virtual Bf109 cockpit. 

 

I also dont understand the rationale behind the limit being forced on in expert settings. I think people who argument about the supposedly competitive advantage in VR from not having such a limit simply haven't tried VR yet. Sure, I might be able to stick my head a few cm out of the cockpit glass, but my view is still obstructed by the wings, nose, tailplane and headrest. To be able to take advantage of the lack of such limitations I would have to let go of my controls, get up from my chair and move around in the room. Not very easy to do in a dogfight  

Edited April 19, 2017 by Felefun

[marklar]

This is exactly what I've been trying to explain for the last 5 days but it seems like I am talking to a wall.

 

I do fly in VR in War Thunder a lot. It's not on the same level in terms of simulation but the idea is pretty the same. I sit in a cockpit and fight other players online. No one have a problem with the fact that there is no limitation with my head movements. I've never seen someone complaining about it on the official forum. The true is, I always keep my virtual head inside and I believe other VR players do the same. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by marklar

[HagarTheHorrible]

The VR experience in this sim is simply outstanding, but I can't STAND the  "Limit VR view" implementation as is.

 

I like to fly with expert settings, so this setting is apparently forced on when I do.

 

The biggest problem for me is that I have the habit of leaning forward a bit to get my head turned around enough to check six. This causes the view limitation to kick in even though there should be plenty of room in the virtual cockpit. This makes me very dizzy. This bug is also apparent when leaning in to the gunsight. For example: The view limitation starts kicking in approx 30-40 cm before the edge of the gunsight in the virtual Bf109 cockpit. 

 

I also dont understand the rationale behind the limit being forced on in expert settings. I think people who argument about the supposedly competitive advantage in VR from not having such a limit simply haven't tried VR yet. Sure, I might be able to stick my head a few cm out of the cockpit glass, but my view is still obstructed by the wings, nose, tailplane and headrest. To be able to take advantage of the lack of such limitations I would have to let go of my controls, get up from my chair and move around in the room. Not very easy to do in a dogfight  

If this has something to do with the cockpit moving when you lean forward and hit the front "wall" then look at my post about "centring view". Adjust your view in monitor mode with the appropriate keys , save with F10 and start VR again.

[Felefun]

Thanks, I'll try that.

 

I only play single player, and right now this issue is stopping me from enjoying the campaigns on expert settings in VR.

 

A bit frustrating that I can't find a way to customize my difficulty settings so I can play the campaigns with complex engine management and VR at the same time without the need for a vomit bag.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Felefun

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

If this has something to do with the cockpit moving when you lean forward and hit the front "wall" then look at my post about "centring view". Adjust your view in monitor mode with the appropriate keys , save with F10 and start VR again.

Does this move the "wall" forward?

 

My other complaint is the bottom wall, really evident in the ju88.

[TP_Silk]

One thing that many people forget about in cases like these is the fact that on the human head the eyes are generally situated about (not exactly of course) half way up the head, not at the top of it. We tend to forget that our foreheads and crown exist as we generally view the face as the majority of the head. I know I didn't explain that well.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that those fighter cockpits were small - really cramped. We simmers have got used to being able to move a little too freely around those cockpits in the past, so when VR suddenly adjusts for the correct proportions of the cockpits and the size of the average human head (including a generally leather flying helmet), we somehow feel more restricted.

 

I absolutely agree about any form of 'return to centre' being totally undesirable though. I am very susceptible to motion sickness and would find this unbearable.

[OrLoK]

Id rather clip than have the cockpit slide to centre me. Its very nauseating and i have good vr legs

[dburne]

I deal with it easy, I just don't use the option.

 

 

 

I guess someday if I ever decide to get into MP, I will have to then - but not until.

[OrLoK]

Its firmly off for me but dissuades me from MP as even in SP can rear its head a little

[Slugga]

"There are also some technical problems I've encountered, like wobbling of picture past or in front (!) of spinning prop and the map blinking in and out of existance, but I blame those on my rig and not the game itself."

 

this is dude to ASW/ATW kicking in, only happens on my Oculus and when i get locked at 45FPS.. I have tried forcing it off, but it seems that when it dips below the threshold it then takes a bit to get back up. I dont get this on my vive at all. 

How ever both setups seem to only be giving max utilization of my 1080 to about 60% and hovers closer to 40%.. cpu is are 20-30% seems off.. could be me only. I did also have my raid play up on me about a week later so who knows. (how ever, i'm not the only one that has seen this)

 

If anyone wants to have a look and see if they see the same?