Battle of Kuban histography

[HagarTheHorrible]

Given the obscurity, in the West, about this battle (did it involve Churchill and cigars for example?) I'm surprised there isn't a sticky'd post in the General Discussion section. I appreciate there is a "History section" but even so I expect a lot of people don't delv much beyond the main forum section headings.

 

Anyway, Wikipeadia was a bit rubbish, but this was excellent. I think it should really be sticky'd, somewhere obvious for everybody, especially casual passers by, looking to find out what it's all about.

 

https://kplanes.tumblr.com/post/108680891735/k-planes-episode-35-the-kuban-meatgrinder

 

The other two links at the bottom, for Moscow and Stalingrad should also really be sticky'd as well somewhere obvious like "General Disscusion", a quick, easy to find, background history relevant to what we're doing.

Edited April 11, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[Ribbon]

Thank you! It should be sticky thread.

Now i would like devs develop yak-9 over the yak-7

[Finkeren]

Did anyone else notice this in the article about the Spit Mk. Vb:

 

" It was unable to out dive German fighters, a tactic which other VVS fighters could regularly depend on."

 

This should raise some eyebrows on this forum.

[keeno]

Nice article!

 

I'd still pay anything for poorly received and out of date Hurricane. Much like the P40, I just love the old battered workhorse plodding on regardless.

 

I think it'd be a great addition to the line up and it was at the battle in some numbers.

 

Cheers

[Ribbon]

Did anyone else notice this in the article about the Spit Mk. Vb:

 

" It was unable to out dive German fighters, a tactic which other VVS fighters could regularly depend on."

 

This should raise some eyebrows on this forum.

Maybe when ailerons fell off!

I thought fw-190 is dive king.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Maybe it's a carb thing, cough, cough and not really a more general speed, acceleration thing.?

[Finkeren]

Maybe it's a carb thing, cough, cough and not really a more general speed, acceleration thing.?

So what you are saying is, that the Soviet planes ate too many carbs, got a bit heavy-set as a result and thus dived faster?

 

Or are you talking about gravity-fed carburetors?

[seafireliv]

Given the obscurity, in the West, about this battle (did it involve Churchill and cigars for example?) I'm surprised there isn't a sticky'd post in the General Discussion section. I appreciate there is a "History section" but even so I expect a lot of people don't delv much beyond the main forum section headings.

 

Anyway, Wikipeadia was a bit rubbish, but this was excellent. I think it should really be sticky'd, somewhere obvious for everybody, especially casual passers by, looking to find out what it's all about.

 

https://kplanes.tumblr.com/post/108680891735/k-planes-episode-35-the-kuban-meatgrinder

 

The other two links at the bottom, for Moscow and Stalingrad should also really be sticky'd as well somewhere obvious like "General Disscusion", a quick, easy to find, background history relevant to what we're doing.

Thankyou, I was trying to find some info on Kuban.

[HagarTheHorrible]

So what you are saying is, that the Soviet planes ate too many carbs, got a bit heavy-set as a result and thus dived faster?

Or are you talking about gravity-fed carburetors?

You read my mind.

 

Frightening, but then given the depth, not overly difficult. I usually find my jokes are of a singular nature (I'm the only one who gets them) so I try, really try, to keep them to myself. Doesn't always work, obviously.

[HBPencil]

Did anyone else notice this in the article about the Spit Mk. Vb:

 

" It was unable to out dive German fighters, a tactic which other VVS fighters could regularly depend on."

 

This should raise some eyebrows on this forum.

I'm curious, is it that VVS fighters could regularly out dive LW fighters that will raise eyebrows or that the Spit couldn't?

[Finkeren]

I'm curious, is it that VVS fighters could regularly out dive LW fighters that will raise eyebrows or that the Spit couldn't?

Mostly the first, but one of the later Spits did come close to breaking the sound barrier in a dive during testing, so at least in terms of max dive speed, it can't have been total rubbish.

 

Still, as Hagar pointed out: This is likely a reference to the Spit's gravity-fed carburetor.

[Asgar]

didn't the Mk V have most of those problems sorted out though?

[HagarTheHorrible]

didn't the Mk V have most of those problems sorted out though?

I'd thought so too, but who know's when I came to export, used, Spit's.

[HBPencil]

Mostly the first, but one of the later Spits did come close to breaking the sound barrier in a dive during testing, so at least in terms of max dive speed, it can't have been total rubbish.

 

Still, as Hagar pointed out: This is likely a reference to the Spit's gravity-fed carburetor.

Ahhh, ok I see. I know very little about Soviet aircraft (or LW for that matter) so I just assumed that the LW had the advantage in the dive as well.

 

As for the Spit, there's two ways of looking at it. On one hand its ultimate dive performance is good as it usually retains good elevator and rudder authority (although its roll rate is crap at high speeds) and holds the record for the highest limiting mach number of any piston aircraft (Mach 0.89 set by a PR.XI in 1944 while a PR.XIX might have reached 0.94 in 1952), even the 'do not exceed' speed in the pilot's manual for the Mk.IX fighter equates to about 0.85 (according to Jeffrey Quill in his autobio).

But those speeds required a prolonged dive from high altitude and the Spit's dive acceleration was poorer than many other western fighters (regardless of which carb or flow restrictor was fitted); so in a practical, every day sense other aircraft (like the 109 for example) would pull away in a dive.

[pilotpierre]

Great read, thanks for posting.

[HR_Zunzun]

One thing to take in to account is that terminal velocity, critical mach number and dive accelaration are three different things.

Spitfire had a good critical mach number (from the top of my head I think it was around 0.8) and terminal velocity but it lacks in dive acceleration. That is what luftwaffe planes exploited so many times. By the time the spit was getting to its maximum speed the german plane was already out of reach. On the other hand you have a plane like the Thunderbolt with a modest critical mach number (around 0.7) but with a superb accelaration (and excellent controlability at high speeds) that came out as a nasty surprise to the Luftwaffe when they tried to use the same tactics that were so suscesful against the RAF.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Well, in the Spitfires over Kuban article from lend-lease.airforce.ru website, they quote Pokryshkin talking about a testing of Spit vs P-39 vs LaGG-3 (1943 model), the LaGG and the P-39 dived together, with the Spitfire lagging behind. So at least there we have some relative relation (LaGG-3 similar to P-39). I don't know how the P-39 compares to planes like the 109 and 190 though.