Snap views

[Chaka]

Will snap views still work in VR? I love DCS VR implementation but they have disabled saving snap views at least along the rotational axis.

 

This makes dogfighting unplayable for me as you have to twist all the way around in your seat to look behind.

 

This is a strain on my back and gets exhausting pretty quickly. Being able to use the hat switch to glance around the cockpit is still an important function in VR I think.

 

 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

thats what you are meant to do..

Putting snap views in VR is counter productive and kinda exploit..
even in normal (non vr) they bad idea

[GrendelsDad]

I can't speak for VR mode yet but I have a snap view set for my six and straight up also. Works great for tracking head on passes.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I'll test it out and see but I think it would be weird in VR to snapview. There may be people who love the VR and 3D but physically can't turn around in a chair that far. So it might be worth looking into. 

[dburne]

Sap views in VR would seem a little weird to me...

[HagarTheHorrible]

Sap views in VR would seem a little weird to me...

 

Tree-hugger.

 

Despite the limited field of view, I quite like the limitations. They may have gone the other way in terms of not being realistic but they seem to be more realistic than the no effort, owl like view you could get with TrackIR, snap or pan views.

[dburne]

Swivel seats are certainly handy for turning around as well.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Swivel seats are certainly handy for turning around as well.

I find that my right view is more restricted than my left (I'm right handed). When looking to the right I'm limited in how far I can turn with my hand still holding the joystick. I could improve it by attaching my joystick to my chair but I would still have to contend with the rudder pedals.

[Gunsmith86]

Tree-hugger.

 

Despite the limited field of view, I quite like the limitations. They may have gone the other way in terms of not being realistic but they seem to be more realistic than the no effort, owl like view you could get with TrackIR, snap or pan views.

 

I quite like the limitations too and they are not far away from being realistic.

Nachtjäger110 posted a picture showing how bad the view to the rear actually was. I get nearly the seame view to the rear with the ME 109 K from DCS.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/18801-restoration-bf109e-3-legion-condor/page-2?do=findComment&comment=310041

[BOO]

I dunno if VR can be mixed with snap views or if it can be scaled like headtrackers - if it can then the function should exist so as not to exclude people with limited mobility or similar issues.

 

If possible, it should also be available to prevent strain or injury occurring in the first place. Remember as "real" as it may all seem, a combat flight sim is played largely by a mature (ing) age group pretending to be young fit 20 year old pilots.

[von-Luck]

 

 

Swivel seats are certainly handy for turning around as well.

 

 

Swivel seat 6 checks and otherwise using your whole body to check is so much better than anything else I have tried.  At this point it's ingrained in me.  You do lose some of your ability to control your aircraft but by and large this has never bothered me.  

 

von Luck

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I tried it in VR, BOS keys for snap, pan, move head up, down, left ,right and F10 do not work. You have a button to center your view other than that you're going to have to look around.

[dburne]

I tried it in VR, BOS keys for snap, pan, move head up, down, left ,right and F10 do not work. You have a button to center your view other than that you're going to have to look around.

 

Good to hear we can assign a button to center the view, I was wondering if it would have that - very glad it does.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Yeah in pilot head controls its called Default VR view but its center view.

[Sokol1]

Curiosity, this VR allow you see "outside" of 3D cockpit structure?

[Gunsmith86]

Only in a bad Sim.

[von-Luck]

Only in a bad Sim.

I believe il2 will be the first flight SIM to restrict your head movements. Time will tell how that pan's out. This is a trickier problem than many believe.

 

von Luck

Edited April 4, 2017 by von-Luck

[Chaka]

I'm all for having as close to realistic flight sim experience as possible but in this case, I don't believe real pilots would have had to turn as far.

 

The VR headset physically restricts your viewing angle to 80 degrees compared to ~160 degrees we get in real life. Plus when you see the enemy on your six you don't look at him at the edge of your display, you try to get him in the sweet spot of focus. This requires almost a complete 180 of your head. In reality, I'm sure you could see clearly out the back of the cockpit without turning much past 90 degrees. 

[itsmecamille]

I really enjoy having to check six properly. Yes you might have to turn your head a tiny bit more than in real life, but you should be able to do it if you're taking care of yourself. Heck, even in real life I don't think that trying to have a look at small objects lost in the middle of a complex background image using your peripheral vision is a good idea - scanning the area you want to check by bringing it in your fovea sounds like the sensible thing to do.

[dburne]

I'm all for having as close to realistic flight sim experience as possible but in this case, I don't believe real pilots would have had to turn as far.

 

The VR headset physically restricts your viewing angle to 80 degrees compared to ~160 degrees we get in real life. Plus when you see the enemy on your six you don't look at him at the edge of your display, you try to get him in the sweet spot of focus. This requires almost a complete 180 of your head. In reality, I'm sure you could see clearly out the back of the cockpit without turning much past 90 degrees. 

 

Well technically the Rift FOV is 110 degrees, as is the Vive. I believe the Primax 4K is closer to 200 degrees, but I get where you are coming from.

But even so I am sure the actual WWII Pilots were also somewhat restricted by being strapped in their seats as well, and turning around to check six was probably not the easiest thing to do for them either.

 

But it will get better before too long a length of time, next generation VR Headsets undoubtedly will have wider FOV and sounds like maybe even eye tracking.

Edited April 5, 2017 by dburne

[von-Luck]

Pilots didn't have a swivel chair to turn around in either. Really try swiveling 6 checks are infinitely easier than people are making them out to be.

 

von Luck

[Scojo]

I say let them have snap views. Even let them possibly be able to change from 1:1 ratio (idk if that would be possible)

 

Pros:

- Helps people with mobility issues

- Helps prevent fatigue that some people may experience more than others

- The FOV in VR is smaller than IRL, so the ratio of movement might as well reflect that, and if we can change that, have snap views or let the view extend via the hat switch controls

- People without VR can use different view methods such as snapping and head tracking already lets you turn around quickly and without moving you from the controls at all, so keep the playing field level by providing the option to VR users

- If you don't like them, you don't have to use them

 

Cons:

- A little more development time and testing? Maybe?

- People without VR downplaying the need on forums about something they have no investment or extended experience in

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Curiosity, this VR allow you see "outside" of 3D cockpit structure?

There is a setting to restrict it or not for testing. I can't say what the release will be, I don't know.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I say let them have snap views. Even let them possibly be able to change from 1:1 ratio (idk if that would be possible)

 

Pros:

- Helps people with mobility issues

- Helps prevent fatigue that some people may experience more than others

- The FOV in VR is smaller than IRL, so the ratio of movement might as well reflect that, and if we can change that, have snap views or let the view extend via the hat switch controls

- People without VR can use different view methods such as snapping and head tracking already lets you turn around quickly and without moving you from the controls at all, so keep the playing field level by providing the option to VR users

- If you don't like them, you don't have to use them

 

Cons:

- A little more development time and testing? Maybe?

- People without VR downplaying the need on forums about something they have no investment or extended experience in

I wouldn't want to change from 1:1..it would make things look weird I think.

The FOV isn't that bad, just like in your car if you're looking ahead you can still see something off to the side but you have to turn to really see its the guy passing you flicking you off! :D

The only reason I could see snap views helping in VR is for people that want to enjoy the 3D VR but cant move around much. Other than that its not needed IMO and would feel weird looking forward but seeing behind you.

[dburne]

I wouldn't want to change from 1:1..it would make things look weird I think.

The FOV isn't that bad, just like in your car if you're looking ahead you can still see something off to the side but you have to turn to really see its the guy passing you flicking you off! :D

The only reason I could see snap views helping in VR is for people that want to enjoy the 3D VR but cant move around much. Other than that its not needed IMO and would feel weird looking forward but seeing behind you.

 

Pretty sure it would make me sick as all get out lol.

I am quite happy with 1:1 tracking thank you!

[HagarTheHorrible]

I believe il2 will be the first flight SIM to restrict your head movements

von Luck

No, CAP 2 does, it's just that's the canopy is so large that banging your head off it is not very likely.

 

Air combat dogfighting is a physical affair, with everything from simply checking the airspace around you, withstanding Gee forces during high speed turns, the strength to manipulate controls and physical stamina. All of these things are pretty much absent from flight sims. VR not only puts you in the cockpit but it does start to introduce an element of this physicality. Is that for everyone ? No, but it should be recognised as a step forward, adding a further challenge to how one approaches battle and tactics involved. It can't be argued that the limited FOV is not entirely realistic, but so could it be argued that the unrestricted ability to look around, even with 1-1 head tracking is also unrealistic. Sure, the challenge won't be right for everyone, and those of us with restricted physical mobility or stamina will have to decide which is more important, levelling the playing field to suite them or VR immersion, not that it will ever be an either/or, just a matter of choice. Personally I prefer the added challenge with increased immersion, is it perfect ? No way, but I want to feel like I'm sitting in that cockpit and there's not a cats chance in hell that I'm going back. Including snap views to take us back to what we have come to expect as normal would, in my view, be a retrograde step, yes it imposes limitations but, much like flying a 109 with the cockpit head armour it also introduces an extra level of challenge. For me the single biggest limitation of VR is not cables, haptic feedback, Inability to see your controls or restricted FOV but simply the low resolution and not being able to make fine judgments from subtle clues as to your opponents intentions.

[Chaka]

For me, this is not a realism versus enjoyment point. First and foremost these are games that are supposed to be fun to play, with as much realism up to the point that starts to degrade the enjoyment. I bought into VR mainly to increase the immersion of these already great combat sim titles. But I play for 10 minutes on a multiplayer server and I am just finished with the effort of looking around all the time. This is not just uncomfortable it has made it unplayable. Not from anything inherent with the VR itself, but with an arbitrary choice of the devs to remove a utility that is already in the game and available to all other users.

[OrLoK]

Hello there

 

VR simming *is* a very different kettle of fish compared to a Track IR or even Keyboard View simming.

 

IMHO *we* are spoiled with Track IR as a tiny movement can have us looking behind our heads whereas in VR moving is...different. I actually prefer it from a realism POV but am not sure I'd like to fly against a Track IR equipped opponent!

 

I also would like to be able to turn on and off the ability to move through the cockpit in VR, in War Thunder, it can be a useful tool.

 

Range spotting *is* an issue, but I'd rather play in low res VR than at a high res multi monitor set up. The sense of "being there" is stupendous.

 

I think new ways need to be thought of with respect to viewpoints/zooming in VR, I think It'll take some time.

 

Time to build up my neck muscles!

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Zenchess]

Aces high 3 has VR support and uses snap views and also zooming in.  The snap views are essential for viewing angles that are hard to turn to, and the zooming in helps you see enemy planes that are far away and hard to see in VR.

 

  While I'll admit that turning your head to check your 6 has a real immersion factor, I think we have to realize that the limited FOV in VR is a significant disadvantage, and you have to turn your head further to actually see in that direction.

[dburne]

Aces high 3 has VR support and uses snap views and also zooming in.  The snap views are essential for viewing angles that are hard to turn to, and the zooming in helps you see enemy planes that are far away and hard to see in VR.

 

  While I'll admit that turning your head to check your 6 has a real immersion factor, I think we have to realize that the limited FOV in VR is a significant disadvantage, and you have to turn your head further to actually see in that direction.

 

Not sure if you saw this, Jason recently commented that on his Moscow trip he had the guys implement VR Zoom while he was there.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28504-developer-diary-part-155-discussion/?p=458964

 

Don't know if that means it will be in this initial 2.009 release or not, but sounds like it will likely be coming.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I can neither confirm nor deny. But VR users will be happy.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Aces high 3 has VR support and uses snap views and also zooming in.  The snap views are essential for viewing angles that are hard to turn to, and the zooming in helps you see enemy planes that are far away and hard to see in VR.

 

  While I'll admit that turning your head to check your 6 has a real immersion factor, I think we have to realize that the limited FOV in VR is a significant disadvantage, and you have to turn your head further to actually see in that direction.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Sure the FOV is a lot less in VR than on a 2D 42' screen with Track IR set up to look back "Linda Blair" 180 at a twitch of the head.

VR puts you in the cockpit as if you were really there. You need to look around because... you are in the cockpit.

Zooming in, I get it, the resolution needs to catch up so zoom in to ID your targets. Snap views in VR? I said in another post I see why it might be helpful to some one who wants the VR effect but can't move around, but for normal use snap views just seem weird to me in VR.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Please add the capability to use snap views with VR. Now with the snap views disabled, the VR users are at a huge disadvantage compared to the snap view and/or TrackIR users.

 

Many thanks,

 

Camo

[HagarTheHorrible]

I can't see as far as I did with TrackIR (which was unrealistic anyway) but it's still further than I expected given my experience with DCS.  I can't think why that is.

Edited April 11, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[dburne]

I can't see as far as I did with TrackIR (which was unrealistic anyway) but it's still further than I expected given my experience with DCS.  I can't think why that is.

 

Seems about the same to me...

Maybe you got your neck more flexible LOL.

Edited April 11, 2017 by dburne

[HagarTheHorrible]

Seems about the same to me...

Maybe you got your neck more flexible LOL.

Must be the silk scarf and pre flight lubrication.

[CIA_Matabo]

This is not a solution, but I can look behind me in VR by looking as far right as I can, then hitting my default VR button and then looking left for the rear view.  Same can be done to look for the right rear view.  Like I said, this is not a solution, but I used it in single player.  I also noticed that trying to see the cross hairs in the gun sight is very hard to do unless you close one eye.  All of these things will get sorted out as time goes by.  Player feed back is very important.  Changes will happen.  There may have to be a VR server setup for those just using VR.  In no way can you compete with TrackIR in dogfighting at this time.

[kileab]

I do that too sometimes. It's boring, they should activate snapviews.
Even looking on the instrument panel in an I-16 is a pain in the arse.