Do plane controls seem a little nervous?

[TX-EcoDragon]

There's a reason that "real" planes have sticks that swing though approximately 24+ inches of travel on each axis and require x pounds of stick force per g, and rudder pedal pressures that may be nearly 100 pounds. In some respects, the better the sim, the less appropriate the typical desktop mounted joystick and springy plastic rudder pedals will be for controlling it. 

 

" With an extended modded Cougar and MFG pedals it's quite controllable at least"  Exactly....

Edited December 16, 2013 by TX-EcoDragon

[jaydee]

Just a  small hope for Nvidia guys havin problems !  It may be "input  lag" caused by V-Sync...Disable V-sync in Nvidia CP (for BOS) . Then try flying !...Just a suggestion !

Im having none of the above problems with the 109. I think my problem with the Lagg is the lack of Trim...Trying to keep the joystick pushed forward to maintain level is fine until the excitement  starts !..Then then rubber banding begins,because ,I am not used to flyin against a huge nose -up tendency..~S~

[DD_bongodriver]

There's a reason that "real" planes have sticks that swing though approximately 24+ inches of travel on each axis and require x pounds of stick force per g, and rudder pedal pressures that may be nearly 100 pounds. In some respects, the better the sim, the less appropriate the typical desktop mounted joystick and springy plastic rudder pedals will be for controlling it. 

 

" With an extended modded Cougar and MFG pedals it's quite controllable at least"  Exactly....

 

Well that's real genius, design a game that 99% of your user base can't use because they don't have the correct hardware.

[ImPeRaToR]

Do you have some charts and tables to go along with your claim of being 99% of the user base?

[DD_bongodriver]

Do you have some to say it isn't?

Edited December 16, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Matt]

Well, if anything, i hope they add a seperate way of handling the control inputs and don't just change it, because i'm one of those (arguably) 1% who seems to have the fitting setup for it.

[Blakhart]

Un realistic FM have nothing in common with "long" & "short" sticks". Nor pillow at all...

0.2 on pitch wont change it.

 

Even if they would do sim which is good "only" for moded stick users 24"+ is something wrong, isnt it ?

Why ?
Because 99% simmers dont have such equipment.

Because like other users said, Rise of Flight uses the same engine and flight model there is very good and realistic.

 

 

When pilot is changing position, "The Plane" start flight with new conditions, direction without going back to previous position.

In BoS plane swing his nose when pilot want to change position because plane "want" to come back to previous position.

This is main un realistic factor.

There is some inertia force as well or some feedback when plane is badly trimed but its not such "plastic" rubber move like we can see on ALL videos presented by users.

 

I cant say how 109 or Lagg flew, but after few years of aviation studies and some hours airborn I can clearly say what is un normal due to flight and physics rules.

Edited December 16, 2013 by =LG=Blakhart

[Matt]

I was talking about the sensitivity of the controls, not the wobbling behaviour that's mentioned here aswell. I consider those to be two seperate issues.

[Sternjaeger]

In BoS plane swing his nose when pilot want to change position because plane "want" to come back to previous position.

This is main un realistic factor.

There is some inertia force as well or some feedback when plane is badly trimed but its not such "plastic" rubber move like we can see on ALL videos presented by users.

 

I cant say how 109 or Lagg flew, but after few years of aviation studies and some hours airborn I can clearly say what is un normal due to flight and physics rules.

 

so what you're saying is that at the moment if you pull your stick and centralise it again once you've reached your angle of manoeuvre the aircraft will tend to go back where you started?

[DD_bongodriver]

so what you're saying is that at the moment if you pull your stick and centralise it again once you've reached your angle of manoeuvre the aircraft will tend to go back where you started?

 

Yes, that is pretty much what happens, not quite back to original position but almost, and this has nothing to do with stick curves or stick length.

[AndyHill]

Well that's real genius, design a game that 99% of your user base can't use because they don't have the correct hardware.

 

This is in fact a very important point. Because of our hardware, everyone is basically flying a different game and none of us have a realistic feel to the controls. Now the real question is what do you do IF realistic flight model resulted in something basically unflyable to most people. Of course, I don't really have knowledge to say either way if the BoS modeling is realistic or not at the moment, but this is a theoretical question I've been pondering for a while.

[JG700_Benek]

 

 

so what you're saying is that at the moment if you pull your stick and centralise it again once you've reached your angle of manoeuvre the aircraft will tend to go back where you started?

 

yes, Stern take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9q-YO_YNqk

Edited December 16, 2013 by CyC_Benito

[Mags]

Inspirational flying there, mate.

 

I noticed some woobliness the week we got the guns but much less now. Maybe I've gotten better and don't oversteer, I don't know. I'm at work right now, but more testing tonight before the server closes.

Have a nice day!

 

 

Did another video thingy, here's for anyone interested in checking out how the game works for me: http://youtu.be/-2WxhLSmDZg

 

I think it's pretty much agreed that the planes in BoS are more nervous than in most other simulators, I can't say much about the realism. With an extended modded Cougar and MFG pedals it's quite controllable at least. For me the plane wobbles mostly when I do quick motions with the stick, usually when trying to take quick shots at someone. Tree-slalom down low is fairly wobble-free activity.

 

[DD_bongodriver]

it's almost like the aircraft have too much inertia, pitch up and the aircraft carries on moving in the original trajectory so that when the stick is neutralised the tailplane weathercocks the nose back to original attitude.

[Sternjaeger]

mmmmh that's weird!

[AndyHill]

Yes, that is pretty much what happens, not quite back to original position but almost, and this has nothing to do with stick curves or stick length.

 

I would actually very much like to export AoA data out of the game and check out what is really happening. Am I correct in thinking that if a plane X (with normal stability) pulls a quick vertical maneuver it goes a bit like this:

 

1) The nose pulls up relatively rapidly, accumulating AoA

2) The rest of the plane's trajectory starts changing due to the airflow

3) (all sorts of things like drag, gravity and torque forces start appearing, but I don't think they are central for this comparison)

 

Now if during the maneuver, if you suddenly release the pressure on the stick, wouldn't the plane's nose drop back towards neutral aerodynamic position - rather quickly if you had lots of pull - go a bit over due to inertia (the amount of which is also an interesting factor here) and settle after a few oscillations? I think this is basically what's going on in BoS at the moment and it's also the difference when compared to for example the DCS P-51. The P-51 seems to pull less AoA, the trajectory of the plane changes more readily and after letting go of the stick the plane settles much faster due to never being that far off balance anyway.

 

Theoretically the behavior could be less pronounced in RoF with the exact same modeling due to the very low wing loading and little inertia of the light planes. Now the question of course is if this is realistic or not. Initially I thought the planes were overly wobbly, but then again, every time I get the wobbles I'm doing pretty harsh stick handling. This is also something that would be affected by the controller, with a light short throw stick it may be difficult to realize just how much force you are giving that heavier, long throw stick in the virtual plane. 

 

At this point it would be interesting to record the AoA values during maneuvering. It's already relatively simple to get such values out of DCS, so maybe I or someone more competent can take it for a flight and we'll see what kind of values we get?

[DD_bongodriver]

This is in fact a very important point. Because of our hardware, everyone is basically flying a different game and none of us have a realistic feel to the controls. Now the real question is what do you do IF realistic flight model resulted in something basically unflyable to most people. Of course, I don't really have knowledge to say either way if the BoS modeling is realistic or not at the moment, but this is a theoretical question I've been pondering for a while.

 

 

this stuff about stick length is a total nonsense, as humans we adapt to the hardware and we learn how to proportion our inputs, our desktop hardware doesn't have to have any real leverage that would be required on the real aircraft so it doesn't need to be full size.

[FlatSpinMan]

The devs must surely be aware of any concerns on this issue/non-issue.

They'll make it better, or they won't. If they don't change it and this is problematic for you as a player, adjust your control settings or your flying technique.

 

There's nothing to be gained by antagonising fellow flight sim fans, other than a brief read-only holiday.

[unreasonable]

No claim of expertise here but just trying to understand what is happening... if you are in, say, a level turn with stick back ie up elevator, and you centralize the stick, the nose must drop, right? I mean centralizing the stick from a non neutral position is an input which must change the pitch, just carrying on in a straight line is impossible?

[DD_bongodriver]

No claim of expertise here but just trying to understand what is happening... if you are in, say, a level turn with stick back ie up elevator, and you centralize the stick, the nose must drop, right? I mean centralizing the stick from a non neutral position is an input which must change the pitch, just carrying on in a straight line is impossible?

 

No the nose of the aircraft should not snap back to its original position at the start of the manoeuvre, it should make a slight reversal but the aircraft should largely remain in the attitude at the moment of stick neutralisation.

[JG700_Benek]

 

 

No claim of expertise here but just trying to understand what is happening... if you are in, say, a level turn with stick back ie up elevator, and you centralize the stick, the nose must drop, right? I mean centralizing the stick from a non neutral position is an input which must change the pitch, just carrying on in a straight line is impossible?

 

Thing is that when you fly straight with trimmed 109 (with stabiliser) and you push the stick forward and then release it the plane will ofc pitch down but after you center the stick it will nearly pitch up to the previous position without any control input from you.

Edited December 16, 2013 by CyC_Benito

[unreasonable]

Hmm...  seems to me that moving the stick from B to A is just as much of a control input as moving it from A to B, other things being equal, since it moves the elevator in an equal but opposite direction.

 

Personally I had noticed the bounciness as well, but only when I was flying rather slowly and trying, usually unsuccessfully, to line up a shot. Maintaining speed seemed to make the effect much less noticeable.

 

Another thought: the discussion has been mainly about pitch, but what about rudder inputs? If you use rudder to yaw and then quickly neutralize you expect the plane to return almost to its original heading. Same principle, matter of degree.

[Quax]

Some physics:

 

 

Plane flies level  with constant speed at an AoA of x degrees. The corresponding lift is a function of the AoA :   Lift(x).

 

Now you pull 4g. The Lift got to increase by 4 times:  4 * Lift(x)  =   Lift(x+y).    y is now around 4 * x  (even more, because it is no linear function )

 

Plane flies on a circle, the additional lift counters the centrifugal force.

 

If you let loose on the stick, the plane instantly flies straight on the last tangent of the circle. New AoA is x !!!    ( speed unchanged )

 

What do you get ?   A "bounce back" of the pitch by   y  degrees !  

[AndyHill]

this stuff about stick length is a total nonsense, as humans we adapt to the hardware and we learn how to proportion our inputs, our desktop hardware doesn't have to have any real leverage that would be required on the real aircraft so it doesn't need to be full size.

 

When it comes to stick feel it's not so much about controllability than it is about perception. For example when I'm trying to put the circular thing on the enemy quickly with an extended Cougar I'm doing pretty light movements with little force required, but in simulated reality (based on looking at the tracks afterwards) I'm throwing the stick around pretty harshly and probably (judging by what little experience I have on using real fighter controllers) giving it fairly substantial amounts of force. I don't see how that could not influence the perception of what the plane should do given the inputs.

 

That doesn't, however, change the fact that when compared to other similar simulators the BoS planes feel more bouncy with the same hardware. 

 

Also it's important to realize that this is an alpha stage game, but that is exactly the reason why right now right here is the perfect time and place for this discussion. If there was something fishy going on in the modeling and the devs for some reason hadn't noticed it themselves they would probably want to hear about it now rather than after release when everything has already been fine tuned around equations that might need to be changed. 

[216th_Jordan]

The physics in the video look very natural to me.

 

Mass wants to stay in the parameters it has at the moment, this is why a spinning wheel is harder to turn than when it's not spinning. 

Your comparison to ROF somewhat states that you miss the point here: WW1 planes have much less weight compared to WW2 planes, reducing AoA enormously. And AoA is the issue here, of course your plane will snap back, thats simple physics, nothing more. it would be unnatural physics if it wouldnt behave that way, although it might not be perfect either.

[PeterZvan]

What if all the people that are on each side of the disscusion and defend their oppionion as if they knew exactly what they are saying list their reference - on what they are basing their statements. Here especially real life experiance is relevant (simmilar style planes).

I know that Quax here is very qualified - it would be interesting to know what are the qualifications from Bongo and the rest.

[FlatSpinMan]

Quax and Bongo - can't be bothered with squabbling, thank you.

You're both convinced of your rectitude. No-one seems likely to change their minds.

I suggest you ignore each other.

[Matt]

Better yet, get in your real planes, get a cam and pull of some maneuvers like in BoS and then upload the videos.

 

I'm a bit surprised that real pilots can have so contradictory opinions about this.

[Finkeren]

I'm a bit surprised that real pilots can have so contradictory opinions about this.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

 

The physics are what they are, but personal experience is entirely subjective and can often override even verifiable facts. (not claiming that I know whom, if any of them, have the facts on their side)

Edited December 16, 2013 by Finkeren

[Quax]

I am pulling more than 2 g. The "bounce back"  should be around 3 degrees:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVaZH_VMq24&feature=youtu.be

 

 

 

 

The physics are what they are, but personal experience is entirely subjective and can often override even verifiable facts. (not claiming that I know whom, if any of them, have the facts on their side)

 

 

 

Nobody flies the real plane like the simulator. In RL you increase the pressure and you release it in a way your body can cope with it. So there will be no bounce back. It only happens, when the small joystick is moved "instantly".

When I fly the BoS planes, like I would do it in RL, there is no bounce back at all.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Quax

[Panzerlang]

I am pulling more than 2 g. The "bounce back"  should be around 3 degrees:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVaZH_VMq24&feature=youtu.be

 

Are you completely letting go of the stick suddenly or feeding it gently back to neutral?

[Furio]

What if all the people that are on each side of the disscusion and defend their oppionion as if they knew exactly what they are saying list their reference - on what they are basing their statements. Here especially real life experiance is relevant (simmilar style planes).

I know that Quax here is very qualified - it would be interesting to know what are the qualifications from Bongo and the rest.

Sorry, no, I’m not defending my “opinion”.

 

I’m just reporting a fact: the game as it is (in Alpha version, I’m pretty aware of this) is uncomfortable for me.

There is no argument by anyone or video by Quax (excellent pilot) than can alter this simple fact. I’m not asking other forum members to acknowledge I’m right and they’re wrong. I’m saying everyone who would want to listen: this Alpha is not working for me.

 

I’m a private pilot with experience with a variety of light planes, from 65 to 300 hp., tail wheel included, so I don’t need lessons in physics or demonstrations of piloting technique, thank you all.

 

I am a 777/1c customer, have stick and pedals of average quality (I believe: Saitek pro) and I think many future customer will have similar hardware, surely better talent than me with simulators and perhaps less experience than me with real airplanes. I believe I have the right to ask for a more fun game, and I’m sure developers will do their best to cope with this wish.

 

If the debate goes ahead this way, this is my last contribution to this thread. Thank you.

[216th_Jordan]

Well physics and input hardware are two different things... 

 

I don't see why input could not be tweaked to fit also normal joysticks.

[Finkeren]

[=AVG=Zombie]

I played with the sensitivity and deadzones for a couple of hours now and it is really not very fun with all of the bouncing around, for those of you who have figured out how to get the planes to fly smooth take a screen shot of your settings would ya. Iv'e got a x52 pro and have been flying in sims forever, and yes i fly ROF occasionaly too so I understand it should be close to the same dynamics, but it's not for ME............ seems maybe it is something with the x52 joysticks? just a thought.

[dburne]

Sorry, no, I’m not defending my “opinion”.

 

I’m just reporting a fact: the game as it is (in Alpha version, I’m pretty aware of this) is uncomfortable for me.

 

 

I have to think this will all get tweaked to make it smoother before all is said and done, probably at some point during this alpha phase.

I highly doubt they will leave it as is, no matter about what is realistic or not.

[unreasonable]

I have to think this will all get tweaked to make it smoother before all is said and done, probably at some point during this alpha phase.

I highly doubt they will leave it as is, no matter about what is realistic or not.

 

If the devs think that their FMs are correct, if they are going to make it "smoother" I for one hope that it will be via a "smoothed" FM option in the realism menu rather than changing the core code.  Otherwise I fear it will be too easy for those of us who like to sweat a bit.  Of course, if the devs believe they have made errors of physics or fact, they should correct them.

[Sternjaeger]

..guys, don't you feel you're sort of going around in circles now? 

 

I guess the best thing to do would be to see if Jason or someone among the devs could shed some light on this issue that is allegedly affecting some of us?

[=AVG=Zombie]

Im pretty sure everyone wants to hear something from the dev's about this issue, may be why we are posting?

[FlatSpinMan]

Leave the petty BS out of it guys. I've told you once, I'll hand out some brief bans tomorrow morning.

State your case, disagree if you wish, but then leave it at that. The way some people keep dragging things out adds nothing to the debate, annoys other members, and serves only to score 'self-aggrandizement' points. It's a waste of everyone's time.