Do plane controls seem a little nervous?

[Sternjaeger]

jeeez, DCS effects are SO lame..

[pilotpierre]

i find all the comments about jerkiness of the planes to blame poor joysticks you have. I will upload one video now of couple engagements and you tell me if you see any jerkiness there. It is all about the joystick you have. Plane are flying smooth and nice and I don't see any (nada, zero , null, null,0) twitching.

 

@J4Scriszeri - check your joystick. its broken.

 

here are couple of my kills

 

 

I disagree, I have a CH set up, joystick, throttle and rudder pedals that I have been using for over 10 years. Playing The original IL2 and RoF since their respective releases I have not experienced this twitchy ness before.

[HagarTheHorrible]

After a bit more stick time it's easy to say the LaGG is far more solid and stable as a shooting platform.  The flightiness of the 109 might just be the Developers attempts at differentiating between the aircraft outside of the pure performance part of the FM's, within what is possible.  It might just be a try at giving aircraft a different feel, like example "A" is a solid heavy workhorse while "B" is a high-strung flighty thoroughbred for example.  All aircraft have their quirks, this could just be BoS attempting to show that.

[AndyHill]

It doesn't necessarily mean much, I was just curious to see if the wobbly behavior would be immediately obvious and look long in a gun camera style footage, I think the answer to that is no. What should the running speed actually be, btw (I used 1/2)? Running at double speed the real footage earlier in this thread looks a bit wobbly, but also a bit fast.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I haven't flown real warbirds (or real aircraft for that matter) so I don't really know how they should behave, but a couple of things:

 

1) I'm not convinced that the flight model has changed since the last alpha, we are just noticing the wobbliness more now when we really need the accuracy.

- It's great thing to have feedback from real pilots, but if latter is true it at least deserves consideration to think if they have actually tried to shoot at moving targets in real planes (or done similar exercises). 

 

2) Controls are going to be an issue and modeling them correctly basically impossible. We are mostly handling light plastic stuff with springs, when the real planes had heavy long throw controls acting against airflow. The feel and capabilities are entirely different. I don't know if BoS models control inertia (a fairly controversial thing) and if it doesn't, how would warbirds react if you could kick the controls around as fast and easily as we do on our light sticks?

 

3) I'm probably speaking for many in saying that I want the modeling to be realistic, no matter if it means lots of woblwobl or not. 

 

Since I don't have much experience to bring into this discussion I thought I'd try a fun experiment in creating guncam footage from BoS. The results are scarily real IMRO (of course I was intentionally hamfisted with controls and shooting to emulate less perfect pilots we see lots of footage from), but that can be said of many simulators. BTW, it would be fun to have a guncam mode when we get recording stuff.

 

 

 

Looks good, it would be great to see several short clips strung together, AKA guncam footage, just showing the actual firing and several second after.  It would probably look really good.

[migmadmarine]

I have full curves set, and the aircraft still feel twitchy to me. Would probably be a lot  easier with a stick the length of the real ones... 

[wastel]

Just flying gliders in real live and never flew such unstable around the vertical and horizontal axis like we do with the 109 in BoS.

No "bouncing like a spring" around the fligth direction..even with an much much lighter an not powered airplane.

 

Personally, it feels just a bit off. Last IL2 alpha built felt better.

 

Even the AI has big problems with the FM when looking to the Lagg AI..totally unstable flight.

 

my 2 cents

wastel

[Fifi]

Some are saying FM didn't change between those 2 updates...of course it has changed!

Nobody noticed how the 109 is now pulling to the left at first on take off and how much rudder it require now to counteract?

And Lagg torque pulling to the right with the wing tendancy to roll at left when leaving ground?

Not to say the greater stall tendancy of Lagg now too, in each hard turns...but not 109 

Edited December 9, 2013 by Fifi

[HagarTheHorrible]

Some are saying FM didn't change between those 2 updates...of course it has changed!

Nobody noticed how the 109 is now pulling to the left at first on take off and how much rudder it require now to counteract?

And Lagg torque pulling to the right with the wing tendancy to roll at left when leaving ground?

Not to say the greater stall tendancy of Lagg now too, in each hard turns...but not 109 

 

 

?????????????????

 

Are you serious ?   They both did this before the last update.

[Fifi]

^^^^ Was less prononced here...now have to apply almost full rudder opposite side on take off! 

Was not like that before...

[HagarTheHorrible]

^^^^ Was less prononced here...now have to apply almost full rudder opposite side on take off! 

Was not like that before...

 

 

Is this on the LaGG ?  If prop pitch isn't set fully forward it pulls like crazy.

[Blakhart]

 

 Nope it shouldn't  bounce back like it is in BOS now.  If you move nose of plane pitch up or pitch down then move stick to neutral nose should stay up or down position  ( some small oscilation could be possible) but it shouldn't back to initial position. It is terribly wrong in BOS flight model.  Thats why planes fly like they were hanging on invisible gums or springs. Not realistic at all. Other sims like DCS or CLOD got it better. Even in ROF ( which teoritiacaly had the same engine)  planes behaves much better in the air. I checked it and found ROF planes fly much more realistic in the "air"  then  in BOS.

 

Some thinks that in BOS they feel moving and living air. It is not true. Here planes just got wobling and swinging nose casued by pitch or yaw movements nothing more.   Unfortunately  there is no combat sim which i tested where there was implemented air conditions ( thermals, air mass etc.)

 

 

Just flying gliders in real live and never flew such unstable around the vertical and horizontal axis like we do with the 109 in BoS.

No "bouncing like a spring" around the fligth direction..even with an much much lighter an not powered airplane.

 

Personally, it feels just a bit off. Last IL2 alpha built felt better.

 

Even the AI has big problems with the FM when looking to the Lagg AI..totally unstable flight.

 

my 2 cents

wastel

 

 

I reduced significantly over control by tweaking curves, but fact remains that – in my opinion, considering my experience with real airplanes, my understanding of aerodynamics, stability and control, plus my basic dumbness as a pilot   – I find the present FM problematic. That said, I understand that we are talking of an alpha version, and we must allow developers all the time they need, avoiding to start heated debates right now.

 

But I see a big question stands in front of us, and that could be debated.

Most people here in the forum are vocal supporters of no-compromises simulation. I tend to agree with them, but I’m beginning to worry about the overall difficulty of this sim. The learning curve looks really steep, beginning with demanding ground handling, and I’m afraid that newcomers would feel intimidated. I hope wise steps will be taken to guarantee everyone an enjoyable experience, with appropriate options. 

 

And others .

 

+1 from me

 

Its good to see that so many real aviators and experienced simmers felt that problem too( "unstable plane", high sensitivity on controls ) .

 

Gentelman`s who think that this FM is good and "realistic", before you start to write here ask yourself a question.

 

Do "those guys" who have experience "in real" have any reasons to lie ?

 

We dont have any business with that sim.

We wont take any money from devs...

 

Only thing we care is a good realistic gameplay.

Nothing more.

[pixelshader]

Feels good to me with a t.16000 and linear input on all except for rudder. It's harder to shoot than in other games, but I knew it would be like that the first time I flew in the first early access.. in this game it actually feels like the plane is in the air, rather than gliding smoothly through a vacuum.

Edited December 9, 2013 by pixelshader

[6S.Manu]

For me it was obvious since i made first take off in BOS and get plane in the air. My first impression was that planes were flying like hanging on gums.

 

[JG700_Benek]

Guys, what do you think about  the dependence between lack of trims and the nose snaping (hanging on gums) behaviour ? Could the lack of trims be the reason ? Does any1 tried 109 and used the vertical stabilizer adjustements to trim (trim wheel moves) and compared the results. I am no expert but just a curious gamer

[DD_bongodriver]

The 109 trim does work in game.

[JG700_Benek]

AFAIK you need to map cotrols for vertical stabilizer for trim wheel to move. Not 100% sure though, just curious if trimming the AC is somehow connected to the nose snapping.

 

Best Regards

[DD_bongodriver]

AFAIK you need to map cotrols for vertical stabilizer for trim wheel to move. Not 100% sure though, just curious if trimming the AC is somehow connected to the nose snapping.

 

Best Regards

 

That's right, yes it works in game, the aircraft trims just fine but it does not seem to have any relationship to the snapping problem.

[ll./JG77_JadeBandit]

I'm using a 3D extreme pro so by no means a high dollar joystick, but with some tweaking I've been able to get stable controls even in the Lagg. Trimmed out the 109 flies like a missile when it's at high speed. Only time I get a lot of wobble is when I'm flying near stall speed then things can get a little ruff.

[Furio]

It’s no coincidence, I believe, that all people saying: “It’s all okay” are good and experienced simmers, surely much better than me  . They are the kind of pilots that – in real life – can fly a bathtub. Quax even lengthened his stick, so he’s not exactly representative of the average player.

 

Not to be mistaken, I repeat it: this is just an Alpha, 35% version. We are talking of a work in progress, and I expect improvements in any respect. However, my feeling remains that the game (I use this term on purpose) is probably too demanding. I hope that adequate options will be implemented, so that realism is preserved for the more experienced, and enough help is guaranteed for beginners. We all want BoS to be a commercial success and no, I don’t believe beginners should transit through War Thunder first.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Furio

[15/JG52_Genie]

 

 

Only thing we care is a good realistic gameplay.

Nothing more.

 

 

You become an Ace with "only" 5 kills.

 

Not because it is easy but because it is damn hard to shoot something out of the sky. It is damn hard to keep airplane straight and non wobbly.

 

best example on the youtube (16 sec):

 

 

Now, somebody better tell him his FM is in early wobbly alpha.. :lol:

 

and one more...

 

 

The best explanation I can give to people that didnt fly a plane but like to play simulations is: imagine a plane flying on rails.. now add bumps on the road - left, right, up and down, now also add ice on the road.  This is how plane flyes thru the air.

Edited December 9, 2013 by 15/JG52_Genie

[DD_bongodriver]

You become an Ace with "only" 5 kills.

 

Not because it is easy but because it is damn hard to shoot something out of the sky. It is damn hard to keep airplane straight and non wobbly.

 

 

But that difficulty is because the person you are trying to kill is trying to survive and kill you if they get the chance, nothing to do with the aircraft being awful to control, as someone who does fly in real life I can say it does not feel at all convincing.

[Quax]

What a luck there are others:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2212-impressions-real-world-high-performance-taildragger-pilot/

[Furio]

You become an Ace with "only" 5 kills.

 

Not because it is easy but because it is damn hard to shoot something out of the sky. It is damn hard to keep airplane straight and non wobbly.

 

best example on the youtube (16 sec):

 

 

 

Now, somebody better tell him his FM is in early wobbly alpha.. :lol:

 

 

The best explanation I can give to people that didnt fly a plane but like to play simulations is: imagine a plane flying on rails.. now add bumps on the road - left, right, up and down, now also add ice on the road.  This is how plane flyes thru the air.

To become an ace, you didn’t need just to shot down five enemy planes, but you must avoid to be killed in the process. The list of dangers is long: flying in a mountain in bad weather, losing your course over desert, being shot by AA fire, experiencing engine failure on take off because of poor maintenance, etc. You can add as many more as you like: none of us will ever face these dangers.

Then.

Consider that the gun camera is placed on a wing, and most of the wobbling comes just from rolling. Look at the tracers. They come from an angle and are not that much scattered, suggesting that the plane was relatively steady.

That said, you’re a better simmer than me. But I’m paying the game as much as you, and I want that as many people as possible will buy and enjoy BoS. There’s absolutely no need to debate about realism. We all want realism. I don’t want nobody will be deprived of as much realism as possible. I just want that people with less experience can have fun.

I hope developers will take care of that.

[Fifi]

It's not the "plane controls seem a little nervous" here, but rather the "founders seem a little nervous"! 

 

[Blakhart]

Genie

 

5 kills on 109 with such effective ammo is an average score so...

 

Thx for video, we can clearly see that nose of the 109 isnt shaking so badly like in BoS now !

 

Especially when 109 pilot is correcting aim point with using rudder and stick the plane is more stable than in BoS !!!

 

Again thx!

 

 

 

Quaq

 

What a luck there are others:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2212-impressions-real-world-high-performance-taildragger-pilot/

 

 

Opinion of that guy is precious, really, but he didnt said too much about flight model while airborn...

Conclusion, that topic has nothing to "swinging nose" and unnatural oscilation.

 

 

 

 

Plus

Quax, there is no need to attack Furio. He just know "how it is" in real. Thats why he is defending his point of view. Instead of arguing Quax plz share with us your experience from real and/or from sims.

Forgive me but I dont know your nickname m8.

Never saw you in old il2 community, you used different nickname or you are offline player ???

 

In real aviation experts are usually experienced pilots, engineers, etc.

Sim world is a bit different, virtual aviation expert dont need to be real pilot !! )

Equal chances for all, which is very good in my opinion !

I personally know a lot of experienced and very good virtual pilots who never flew real plane but they have theoretical knowledge and virtual experience.

 

Their voice and opinion is for me also a "voice of expert" even they dont have IR experience nor proper education/studies.

So their voice is some kind of a strong argument for me /us.

 

Other voices are like a dust on wind, because forum is for all, and "all" can post different things which shouldnt be treated serious .

Edited December 9, 2013 by =LG=Blakhart

[FlatSpinMan]

Look, this is all pretty subjective and is in any case about the early FM of an Alpha stage release. People have explained their impressions and thoughts, now let's just wait and see what's coming down the pipeline next update.

, and leave off getting into personal spats.

[15/JG52_Genie]

Consider that the gun camera is placed on a wing, and most of the wobbling comes just from rolling. Look at the tracers. They come from an angle and are not that much scattered, suggesting that the plane was relatively steady.

 

are we watching the same guncamera as I posted? You can clearly see the wobbling and how tracers are all over the place because his nose is not stable.

also.. if you do a little search of straffing planes mostly what you will see that they are making circles with bullets in the sea or the ground. clearly showing wobbling of the plane.

[303_Kwiatek]

Geni you miss real life small nose oscilations and move whole plane in the mass of air   with springing nose of BOS planes. You most think that if nose is springing and wobbling like the hell it is good beacause thats behave plane in the air?  Planes is moving as a whole in the mass of  air ( expecially in thermal air) - not springing and wobbling nose like in BOS. Totally absurd.  In real life there is small nose oscilations beacause of prop effects on plane ( expecially at lower speeds and high RPMs) but nose of plane should not sprigning like in BOS now.

 

In DCS P-51, CLOD or even ROF still nose of plane got some oscialation but there is no springing and swinging nose like in BOS. Thats why these other sims feel more much more realistic to me.

 

 

Some nice videos how planes should fly in the air:

 

 

 

Watch at plane PZL 104 Wilga which tow a glider - how plane is moving in thermal mass of air - all plane is moving in air mass  - no nose wobling

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Nobody seems to have appreciated that there may be a world of difference between flying an aircraft and then trying to fly an aircraft with the object of shooting down another aircraft.

 

It seemed as if everyone agreed that the 109 was pretty close to perfect (maybe I exaggerate) when it first came out, nobody said anything about noses bobbing around, it is only since weapons were introduced that anyone has found a problem.  For all of the experience of even the most adventurous and skilled pilots who might frequent these forums I doubt any have tried to shoot another aircraft down.  For all we know it might be the same in real life as it is in the sim, unless you are actually trying to shoot another aircraft down many of the finer points raised might also not be obvious until you have to try ?

Edited December 9, 2013 by HagarTheHorrible

[Furio]

are we watching the same guncamera as I posted? You can clearly see the wobbling and how tracers are all over the place because his nose is not stable.

also.. if you do a little search of straffing planes mostly what you will see that they are making circles with bullets in the sea or the ground. clearly showing wobbling of the plane.

Yes, we are. I’m not saying that the plane is perfectly stable. I’m just commenting at the severity of the wobbling motion. To me, it looks not severe, but I can be mistaken, of course.

As I understand it, the posts could be grouped into three points of view.

 

There is wobbling, but this is realistic. Fighter planes are difficult to fly.

 

There is an excessive wobbling and it is not realistic.

 

There is no wobbling at all. The problem is in our joysticks and our inexperience.

 

Some videos have been posted to support all three positions, demonstrating that even our eyes can disagree. My suggestion is: let the developers go ahead with their excellent work. We are talking of an Alpha, as is always worth remembering. In the end, I think there is a method to disperse subjectivity. A test pilot with a decent joystick can perform a routine assessment of control and stability, with repeatable measurements. I know: stick force cannot be measured, and stick displacement will be small and difficult to measure. What’s more: WWII era fighters had usually less stability than is today considered acceptable, but some conclusion could be drawn. There’s any test pilot out there?

[DD_Arthur]

Feels no different to me.

 

Agree.  Feels no different to me either.  When I first tried to shoot down the Lagg with the '109 I thought  "Aha!  Somethings changed"  but yesterday evening I spent flying the '109 in formation with an a.i. wingman again and there were no wobbles as I was precise and smooth.  Getting a gunnery solution is different.  It's tough.    The dm undoubtedly needs work though as just about any hit on the fuselage means instant smoke/fluid loss.

 

I think we're going to have to get used to this flight model.  Its not on rails.  I seem to recall I could'nt hit a cow in a corridor for my first week in RoF but you learn.

[DD_bongodriver]

It may not feel different, it hasn't necessarily changed, it's only being noticed now we are trying for firing solutions, it may have been wrong from the start.

[Mogster]

I like the fact that current recent sims have flight models with a more dynamic feel. DCS AFM, ROF and BOS all feel light I'm flying, IL2, FS and CloD have that on rails feel pure tabulated flight models seem to have. 

 

This is the problem with releasing an alpha for people to play with. People expect the finished product and its hard to separate valid well thought out comments about the FM from comments more related to problems caused by sim experience, PC hardware or input hardware. When a thread like this starts they ring a bell with people new to flight sims who are struggling to get off the ground. Ahhh, that's it then, I can't get off the ground after 5 minutes of trying because the flight model's shit, that must be it then, I'll post agreement in this thread....

 

Comments about the way the AI handles the planes are only valid for ROF and BOS. In other sims the AI uses a completely different flight model to the player.  

 

I think we can only really compare DCS with BOS when we have the same planes in each sim.

[Kaenzdhi]

I didnt' notice any change. Perfect for me

[=AVG=Zombie]

I did notice a lot of difference this week, for one the 109 was pulling up like the Lagg and both seemed to be overly sensitive, had to play with the deadzones a considerable amount of time. Was not like that the previous weeks. Something definitely changed. Ive been flying IL2 since the 1.22 servers on ubi.com and believe when i say that something was different. 

[Sternjaeger]

This is the problem with releasing an alpha for people to play with. People expect the finished product and its hard to separate valid well thought out comments about the FM from comments more related to problems caused by sim experience, PC hardware or input hardware. When a thread like this starts they ring a bell with people new to flight sims who are struggling to get off the ground. Ahhh, that's it then, I can't get off the ground after 5 minutes of trying because the flight model's shit, that must be it then, I'll post agreement in this thread....

 

yeah, but what really annoys me is the pontificating of what's right and wrong on an alpha, which even if it's in alpha stage already has by far the best FM and physics ever seen in a WW2 simulation.

[AndyJWest]

Regarding 'wobble', I think what we are mostly referring to is 'short-period pitch oscillation' - something that all fixed wing aircraft except some fly-by-wire types will exhibit to some extent. See this Wikipedia article for an explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics_(fixed-wing_aircraft) There may also be a similar oscillation in yaw, while gyroscopic precession and propeller P-factor will tend to cause pitch-yaw interactions. As to whether the oscillation is excessive and/or insufficiently damped, without access to data for the real aircraft (which may not even exist) it would be hard to say for sure.

[Quax]

I guess it is just overcontrolling (pilot induced oscillation) because of lack of training with joystick in connection with a real FM. I don´t have any wobble (pitch oscillation) on my side. Can´t be the FM.

 

PS: it was the same with ROF the first months. After that nobody talked about it anymore. FM didn´t change there as well.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Quax

[DD_bongodriver]

it must be the FM because many people with real life experience as well as years of flight siming have highlighted an issue.

Edited December 9, 2013 by DD_bongodriver