smink1701 Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Now that we are in combat i've noticed the control stick (109) seems overly sensitive. It's similar in ROF and I always felt that the planes seemed a little nervous. But maybe in ROF it's appropriate since the WWI aircraft are more like kites and easily affected by wind, turbulence etc. Was hoping that BOS would be a bit smoother. Anyone else feel this way?
DD_fruitbat Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 You can alter your joystick curves now to make it less sensitive. Makes a lot of difference.
dburne Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I finally got to crank this thing up for the first time this evening - that Lagg, yep quite the nervous bird lol!
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Unless you're flying aerobatics, in RL you normally can hold the stick with your finger tips, you really don't need to go for the full grip, as control surfaces are naturally very responsive, and a firm grip will reflect in a constant juddering around, whereas holding the stick with your finger tips will dampen any shaking or over-control. So far I think this is well represented in the sim. Edited December 7, 2013 by Sternjaeger
Capt_Hook Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 The rudder seems a bit too sensitive compared to what I've experienced in a Piper and L-19, but obviously I've never been in a warbird. Using Saitek Combat Pedals. Could use a curve, and I might resort to that, but the range of motion of the real pedals perfectly equals the range of motion of the virtual, so that seems to be putting lipstick on a pig. The Saitek pedals have a fair amount of travel... Not as much as the real thing, but not that much shorter either. It's that first tiny nudge of the pedals that feels off... it produces an equivalent tiny movement of the virtual pedals, so the motion is accurately represented, but that tiny motion can produce a sudden, abrupt yaw. The response and sensitivity of the stick actually feels pretty good. I think this sim is going to sell a lot of Warthog extensions. :-)
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 don't forget that on real aircraft you have to negotiate your rudder input with the airstream resistance, perhaps that's why you might feel the rudder is too sensitive.
smink1701 Posted December 7, 2013 Author Posted December 7, 2013 Makes sense… Thanks for your feedback
Uriah Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I too felt there was much more sensitive or shaky. I thought it was just me after being away from the game for 4 days. Guess I will have to find those curves.
Thomasew Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Hi, Something has definitely gone all twitchy with the Flight Controls. I had set up my curves to 0.25 last week, and it felt very comfortable, .. and very controllable. This week I've had to max out the curves, .. and it still feels twitchy, .. and overly sensitive. Even watching the AI fly, .. the planes are twitching all over the place, .. even watching the control surfaces, they're fluttering about like crazy. However, it looks like the Flight Models have gone all twitchy, rather than the Flight Controls. It would seem that someone has been playing about with the FM. Cheers Tom
Rigsby Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Why would anyone start messing with the Flight Controls when everyone last week was raving how good they have it. Wouldn't that be a bit like shooting yourself in the foot? I really hope they don't start messing with things that have had very good feedback because you are asking for problems doing that. Edited December 7, 2013 by Rigsby 1
303_Kwiatek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Planes wobbles and swinging like the hell. Nothing realistic here. For me it is actually the biggest issue of BOS flight model. Even AI wobbles and swinging - it is clearly noticable in dogfight against AI ( no metter of 109 or LAgg). Real planes if have vertical stabilizer dont fly these way. Also slats in 109 dont work as function of AoA but rather speed which is also wrong. Rudder in all planes dont work like should - planes with full rudder dont want to change direction, rudder is very wobbly if kick quite hard it could get plane into flick roll with easy. Quick movemetns in pitch or yaw make nose swinging in all direction nothing realistic here. Im dissapointment with flight physics in BOS. Even ROF do it much better, natural and realistic. Edited December 7, 2013 by Kwiatek
Mingan Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I have also noticed this. Last week my controls felt good, now I can't hit anything because the plane is jumping all over the place. Also true for the AI.
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Unless you're flying aerobatics, in RL you normally can hold the stick with your finger tips, you really don't need to go for the full grip, as control surfaces are naturally very responsive, and a firm grip will reflect in a constant juddering around, whereas holding the stick with your finger tips will dampen any shaking or over-control. So far I think this is well represented in the sim. Dont try to compare light civil planes to heavy WW II fighters... And no...its not "well represented"... Controls in BoS are too sensitive, changing curves wont fix it. Its a bug in my opinion. FM in BoS looks now more like in arcade WT FRB than in serious sim... 7
Mirtma Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Controls in BoS are too sensitive, changing curves wont fix it. Its a bug in my opinion. +1 2
M4rgaux Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I play with linear controls and to me they are fine with either plane. I think what you want is a sensitivity control a la WT, where if you put the stick in an angle it'll take 5sec for the control surface to move... These are warbird, they are meant to be tamed.
303_Kwiatek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Dont try to compare light civil planes to heavy WW II fighters... And no...its not "well represented"... Controls in BoS are too sensitive, changing curves wont fix it. Its a bug in my opinion. FM in BoS looks now more like in arcade WT FRB than in serious sim... Agree. One thing where BOS is shine is ground handling of planes. Unfortunately once plane get in the air the spell is broken. Actually BOS regarding flight physics (expecially behaviour planes in the air) is far behing DCS P-51, CLOD or even ROF ( where planes generally fly in more natural and realistic way) Edited December 7, 2013 by Kwiatek
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I play with linear controls and to me they are fine with either plane. I think what you want is a sensitivity control a la WT, where if you put the stick in an angle it'll take 5sec for the control surface to move... These are warbird, they are meant to be tamed. Plz check how controls work in Cliffs of Dover for compare. Then go to nearest aviation club own some plane and make few circles above the field, then make few simple diving-climbing. Belive me, its nothing to WT.
JG700_Benek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 + 1 Kwiatek & Blakhart Done a couple of bot shooting back to CLOD for now.
-JG2-SilencerBF Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) I am missing a smoothing/filtering option as we have in IL-2 1946, ROF or WT (Controllers that produce erratic output right through the range of motion can be compensated for by using the Filtering control. Under normal circumstances IL2 directly applies the current controller output to the game, but the filtering control allows you to force the game to average input over a small period of time. The more Filtering you add, the greater the period of time.) It basically makes your stick inputs smoother by delaying it a little bit. For me it specially helps with the twist stick rudder axis, if I let snap it back into center position by mistake, the whole aircrafts wobbles around the horizontal axis. With smoothing the movement gets delayed and it does not wobble, same with elevator. So this is especially helpfull if you have a cheap stick and no rudder pedals. Edited December 7, 2013 by -JG2-SilencerBF 1
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Dont try to compare light civil planes to heavy WW II fighters... And no...its not "well represented"... Controls in BoS are too sensitive, changing curves wont fix it. Its a bug in my opinion. FM in BoS looks now more like in arcade WT FRB than in serious sim... That's a bit condescending, why is it not well represented? Aerodynamic forces are the same for all aircraft, the point is about response of the controls. No matter if you're flying a Piper Cub, a T-6 or a P-51, if it's a cables and pulleys control, the controls will stiffen as airspeed increases. I think the mechanical response is well represented, what needs tweaking is the response at different airspeeds, but you can still fly any well balanced aircraft with your fingertips. These are not jets mate. Plz check how controls work in Cliffs of Dover for compare. Then go to nearest aviation club own some plane and make few circles above the field, then make few simple diving-climbing. Belive me, its nothing to WT. so now it's ok to compare it to light aircraft? I'm confused.. Edited December 7, 2013 by Sternjaeger
Klaue Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Hi, Something has definitely gone all twitchy with the Flight Controls. I had set up my curves to 0.25 last week, and it felt very comfortable, .. and very controllable. This week I've had to max out the curves, .. and it still feels twitchy, .. and overly sensitive. Even watching the AI fly, .. the planes are twitching all over the place, .. even watching the control surfaces, they're fluttering about like crazy. However, it looks like the Flight Models have gone all twitchy, rather than the Flight Controls. It would seem that someone has been playing about with the FM. Cheers Tom +1
von_Tom Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) I don't know if it's the controls that jittery or the stability of the aircraft. It always feels like I'm just along for the ride as it wobbles around the sky. The feeling in cockpit is that it wobbles far more than I've seen warbirds do at Duxford etc. They may well be jiggling about but it doesn't look it. I'll try dampening down the curves and we'll see. Other than that the game is of course WIP and probably the best place for this is on the Founders room. Hood Edited December 7, 2013 by Hood
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Gents, try simple excercise. Increase speed to more than 500 km/h, push left or right "leg". Plane immediatly reacts. ;/ Its not normal. With 500 km/h ;p Then try to make spin with 400km/h - 500km/h. Such spin have normal procedure in this game like with spin near stall speed ( less than 200 km/h ) Ask real pilots would they risk their life to try intentional spin with more than 300 km/h In real pilots try spins and recovery usually at low speed because on high its dangerous due to high forces on stick. This FM is actually really bad, but its only ~35% so I hope 1C-777 will fix it. Stern, im not a jet pilot... Turbo prop here ;p Edited December 7, 2013 by =LG=Blakhart
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Can you try and explain it a bit better please?
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I`m talking about sensitive controls and plastic FM m8, about some bugs and unnatural plane beahve which I found during tests. There is few simple tests which can give you some information about FM. Test plane at stall speed, low speed, high speed. Test spin and stall characteristic. In every of those tests I found that planes in BoS behave like they would fly in vacuum. IMHO there is no air mass in the game. No inertia force, I think this is main problem with "sensitivity" ;/ I know that most of the forum users are extreemly happy because of BoS. I`m also one of the "happy founders" but this euphory of happines wont change my attitude to technical issues. I think you started your sim journey with WT and thats why you dont see such basic problems and you think that circling nose in plane with speed more than 400 km/h is something normal. No it isnt. Same like making a easy spin and easy recover with speed higher than 340 km/h. Try to do this in Cliffs of Dover or even in old IL-2 1946. I can bet you are good and experienced pilot in real but when you want to act like expert in this forum ( what you try to do, due to your "in real" skills ) you need to get more experience online buddy. Its not an offence, its a suggestion.
DD_bongodriver Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I believe the jist is that the rudder shouldn't behave the way it does when flying above 500 km/h Not sure about the rest. Even that doesn't make sense, the faster you are the more effect your controls have, why would anyone be using rudder at 500 km/h is the question. 2
Uriah Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I just like it much more before this weeks change. It was fun to fly. Now not so much.
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Even that doesn't make sense, the faster you are the more effect your controls have, why would anyone be using rudder at 500 km/h is the question. With 500 km/h you need more force to push rudder plus reaction of plane is slower. In BoS we have now immediate reaction on every controls in every angles.
SKG51_robtek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Even that doesn't make sense, the faster you are the more effect your controls have, why would anyone be using rudder at 500 km/h is the question. If you fly faster the controls need much more force, making such things as a steering induced wobble highly impropable. The plane gets 'stiffer'.
Creepermoss Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Agree. One thing where BOS is shine is ground handling of planes. Unfortunately once plane get in the air the spell is broken. Actually BOS regarding flight physics (expecially behaviour planes in the air) is far behing DCS P-51, CLOD or even ROF ( where planes generally fly in more natural and realistic way) Silver account has access now? And last week? Edited December 7, 2013 by [JG2]Creepermoss 1
303_Kwiatek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I just like it much more before this weeks change. It was fun to fly. Now not so much. Nothing change here. Planes wobbling and swinging nose like before update. For me planes in BOS flying like they were hanging on invisible gums. Nose is swinging and wobbling with every little pitch and rudder movements. Nothing compare to real life flying. Im flying different planes IRL also taildragers and aerobatic plane ( old fashion taildrager with retractable landing gear) and never experienced such behaviour as in BOS. P-51 DCS or even planes in CLOD behave in more natural way then these one in BOS. Only ground handling is niclely done in BOS. I wonder why there is so difference between ROF and BOS planes handling in the air casue in ROF planes fly much natural and realistic way. I always like ROF flight physics since the begining of these game becasue i got high immersion from flying it but i can't say the same about BOS unfortunatelly. They improve ground handling in BOS comparing to ROF but other hand air handling is much degraded.
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) With 500 km/h you need more force to push rudder plus reaction of plane is slower. In BoS we have now immediate reaction on every controls in every angles. this is another example that makes me wonder whether you actually ever flown a normal propeller driven aircraft: rudder control response increases with airspeed(until you reach critical compressibility): controls become slightly harder, but response is much more prompt. That's the ABC of aerodynamics. Try and do the little kids' test of putting your hand out of a car window and see how response changes as speed varies, and how much force you need to move your hand the way you want. ..and as Bongo rightly said, why would you wanna give rudder input when flying at 500 km/h anyway? Once again, I haven't had the chance to try the sim this week as my PC is dead, but the last two weeks I thought that the response was "mechanically" correct, what they need to make a decision on is how to negotiate the relationship between increased response and input strength as airspeed increases. Edited December 7, 2013 by Sternjaeger
303_Kwiatek Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Silver account has access now? And last week? Nope but friends got gold so i could try it.
Blakhart Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Discussion with you Stern is pointless. I showed you simple examples. Strong arguments and you react only with agression. Calm down . Easy example of your agressive attitude: I said : In every of those tests I found that planes in BoS behave like they would fly in vacuum. Quote LIKE THEY WOULD fly in vacuum So I didnt said that planes fly in vacuum but of course try to use it against me erm, an aircraft can't fly in vacuum, as there's no fluid for the wing to go through. So you try to critic my knowledge and show that I dont have enough teoretical info about aviation basics... Ohh I wont play your game. I dont even want to comment rest of your accuses. I see only that you cant stand critic. Everyone have to think like you because only you have right, because you are mr. Pilot. Kwiatek also explained problem very well. Read his post caerfully. Maybe you gonna learn something. Higher speed = stable plane In BoS = high speed, nose swinging, small force on stick, high reaction. Un realistic, arcade. I dont think if I can easier explain that... Rama: Striked all personnal stuff that inevitably lead to a dispute, later namecalling, and finally topic lock. Edited December 7, 2013 by Rama 2
ACG_Kraut Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Real plane's controls actually are this sensitive, it's really about getting the feel for it and learning to be light on the controls. 1
Sternjaeger Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Discussion with you Stern is pointless. I showed you simple examples. Strong arguments and you react only with agression. Calm down . Easy example of your agressive attitude: I said : In every of those tests I found that planes in BoS behave like they would fly in vacuum. Quote LIKE THEY WOULD fly in vacuum So I didnt said that planes fly in vacuum but of course try to use it against me So you try to critic my knowledge and show that I dont have enough teoretical info about aviation basics... Ohh I wont play your game. I dont even want to comment rest of your accuses. I see only that you cant stand critic. Everyone have to think like you because only you have right, because you are mr. Pilot. Kwiatek also explained problem very well. Read his post caerfully. Maybe you gonna learn something. Higher speed = stable plane In BoS = high speed, nose swinging, small force on stick, high reaction. Un realistic, arcade. I dont think if I can easier explain that... aggression?! "LIKE THEY WOULD fly in vacuum" does not make any sense whatsoever man, stuff doesn't fly in vacuum. Either you need to use a different example, or your knowledge of aerodynamics is not as good as you think. You really need to drop this "Mr. Pilot" thing, I think it's you the one with the small man syndrome here. We are talking about plain, simple aerodynamics, I gave a you a classic empirical example that anybody can try out, I can't think of a simpler way to explain this to you. "Higher speed=stable plane" what does that mean? "In BoS = high speed, nose swinging, small force on stick, high reaction." yes, there are factor like propeller gyro effects, prop wash, lack of 3-axis trimming.. this is what a WW2 warbird should feel like, you gotta hold your controls all the time. This is not a modern turboprop or jet, and the impression I have is that you're talking with a flying experience based on that. Once again, read twice stuff before you post it, because your tone is the aggressive/offensive one: "Maybe you gonna learn something." - "because you are Mr. Pilot" - "calm down" -"I can bet you are good and experienced pilot in real but when you want to act like expert in this forum ( what you try to do, due to your "in real" skills ) you need to get more experience online buddy." Now can we go back on the original topic? If you need any clarification or further discussion, feel free to PM me. Edited December 7, 2013 by Sternjaeger
Matt Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Real plane's controls actually are this sensitive, it's really about getting the feel for it and learning to be light on the controls. I think the joystick lenght also has bit to do with it. I'm using a Warthog with 7,5 cm extension and don't notice this overly sensitive behaviour people are posting about. I guess if you use a shorter joystick, you should really rely on curves. 1
15/JG52_Genie Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Now that we are in combat i've noticed the control stick (109) seems overly sensitive. It's similar in ROF and I always felt that the planes seemed a little nervous. But maybe in ROF it's appropriate since the WWI aircraft are more like kites and easily affected by wind, turbulence etc. Was hoping that BOS would be a bit smoother. Anyone else feel this way? no its not. its your joystick beleive me I just moved from x52 (5 years old) to trustmaster warthog...and oh my god... Thrustmaster is SOOOOO smooth....
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