stationary engine cooling much too effective

[19//Moach]

according to a number of sources, it was very common for this kind of airplane to be incapable of sustaining even idle power while stopped on the ground - these engines would often boil over if left running without enough airflow through the radiators - such airflow could not be obtained at lower than takeoff speeds

 

 

ingame however, it is almost impossible to overheat on the ground - most planes will instead overcool, even with the radiators closed on a hot day (>0°C) - at idle, all planes will cool down under conditions which contradict many an account and a number of operating manuals

 

the P40, most obviously - has a massively overpowered cooling system, which makes it effectively impervious to overheating simply by having the cowl flaps open by as little as 20% -- without combat/emergency power, one may even fly with cowls closed depending on the weather - and most absurd, one can also high-idle it while stationary, cowls closed and have it cool down

 

this is completely opposite of historical behavior, where the P40 had about 5 minutes of "tolerance" before it had to fly, or shut down, else it would overheat from idling still despite the flaps being completely open

 

the IL2 also contradicts the flight manual on the ground, being unable to reach, let alone sustain minimum allowed temperatures for takeoff (rads closed) at any power setting that the brakes can manage - it is thus impossible to follow the correct takeoff procedure without trespassing low-temp limitations

 

in CloD, albeit somewhat buggy, this behavior is generally well depicted, as is expected particularly of the spitfire - this can be a very educational experience for a first timer and/or the complacent expert

 

 

it should not be difficult to correct this - but it is very well obvious - cooling is unrealistically effective at non-flying speeds all across the board, on any of our planes

 

 

 

source (il2): http://www.allworldwars.com/IL-2-Illustrated-Flight-Manual.html

source (p40):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rki8tnsLodQ

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by 19//Moach

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Totally Agree. The 109 also wasn't to be run for long Periods on the Ground after Warmup due to insufficient Cooling. Ingame the Radiators don't open an Inch even in Summer. 

 

I can cool it down to 30°C in Autumn with open Rads and 800rpm

Edited March 5, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

30*C would actually dmg the engine if that was the coolant temp

but yes engines seem to run very cool for most part compared to some cases i have heard
even some new planes struggle if they must taxi longer than a few minutes on ground in heat they overheat

[YSoMadTovarisch]

This leads me to believe that the cooling effect of airflow is barely modeled, if at all.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

i would be shocked if it was not modeled properly as everything else modeled pretty darn well.

From complex damage system for plane itself
Eg, 109 crack a wing on taxi ground loop then 20 minutes later when you dive past 500kph in the 109 the wing snaps off right along the barely visible hairline crack
 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Aircrafts with air cooled engines are modeled more realitsicly than others in this regard. The Ju 52 for istance will do about 5-10min at idle before having all engines dying due to overheating. The La-5 also does overheat quickly if not treated properly.

 

Might be worth testing some of the other planes/engines to figure out which specific ones seem faulty.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yeah,

 

the 109 can be flown in a step climb, near Vso, full flaps down, engine in combat power, and the temps stay more or less static...

 

Would really like to see this addressed too...

Edited March 6, 2017 by jcomm

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm wondering if the radiators on water cooled aircraft are "seeing" winter map temps at all times on all maps?

[unreasonable]

I'm wondering if the radiators on water cooled aircraft are "seeing" winter map temps at all times on all maps?

 

I am sure this is not the problem: recently flying Juri's Yak campaign it was quite obvious that while I had to be careful about overheating on the summer map during a sustained climb, even with fully open radiators, once the snow came there was no longer an issue.

 

Probably the radiators and oil coolers are just modeled as too efficient especially while not flying.  Perhaps Han will be able to give an answer if someone can come up with a sufficiently clear question?

[Blutaar]

I agree wee need a new heat model.

 

Engines are to resistent agianst heat but not all, russian ones for example overheat way to late, 15°c overheat before destruction timer starts for the M105-PF, now take a 190A5, we only have Oil temperature gauge and in manual we have an max Oil intake value at 85°c but destruction timer starts at between 70-75°c, not really consistent.

My guess is that its not the Oil that overheats but the cylinderheads like in the La5 but we have no gauge for that so Oil and Cylinderhead should be kind of linked together like in RL i assume, if the cylinderhead temp is not linked to the oil temp in some way, how should a 190 driver know when the cylinders overheat, does he feels it and if so, how do we model that.

If i fly the A5 from manuals only i would have destroyed every BMW 801 engine because of the oil temp gauge showing me im way under max oil temps but the techno safes lives, it magically tells me im overheating so i can open the cowls, imagine you play without techno, that would be funny to read reactions.

 

Another topic is, why the Yak1b water rads are so effective in aerodynamics, they look like a damn airbreak or splitflaps, at 50% you just lose 2kmh topspeed compared to the official 530kmh topspeed listed in the manual, even if it gets realistic heat parameters it will go 528kmh forever at 100°c water temp, the tiny oilradiator is less areodynmic then the speedbreak water radiator it seems, have to test it again to be sure but not today.

This may not be a problem now because of performance differences in the current planeset and i can understand that patriotic russians dont like that but if you want a ballanced game go to WT, there you have russian wonderplanes nicely tiered against older opposition fighters, but that is not what i paid for as i pre purchased BoS and it was clear that thats not what the devs wanted.

 

I only talk about relative performance, all non russian planes are pretty much restricted now because of ridiculous engine limitations, thats why nobody wanted a damn 109G4, its not worth to have 1.42 ata in the g4 if you can have a g2, hope we get an g2 1.42 ata unlock/modification like the La5.

 

Im sure there are some people now triggered and see a luftwhiner, its just feelings right, anyway it fits good in this thread, everybody should now and everybody can test it themselves im not making something up here, i notice this for quite some time now and i thought it must be ok because nobody cares but i think its time to talk about it, thx OP for this topic and i hope this thread stays polite and that we get some fixes in the near future.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Ishtaru

[LukeFF]

 

 

i hope this thread stays polite

 

The thread was polite until you felt the need to interject claims of national bias & intentional balancing.  

[Blutaar]

Ah why did i know exactly that you wrote some negatives about my post just by looking at who has posted after me, the holy defender of IL2 BoX, im waiting for your friends joining you, maybe its the way i write, sry that english is not my native language as you can clearly see.

 

So pointing something out is not welcomed, i guess i have to apologise then, so my deepest apologies to you and your kind to spoke out something forbidden, it might never happen again from me, i feel kind of poisining this thread, thx for pointing out, guess im not welcome here so i better stop posting.

Im glad that people like you have not enough influence to this great game so we can have good updates like the 190 FM update, guess you where one of them who allways told us "just feelings and emotions blah blah blah", glad you be part of this community.

 

For the rest, i really feel sry if my post feels offensive and maybe im not right at everything, im just a normal guy who likes WW2 planes or planes in general so pls spare me for saying what i think has to be said.

I will not participate in this thread anymore, after this post i am just a silent listener like i was for years and hope other people can bring the devs to changing stuff that seems not right like they done for years, thank you for that, i really mean that.

 

Thx LukeFF for the feeling i have done something wrong, keep going.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I only talk about relative performance, all non russian planes are pretty much restricted now because of ridiculous engine limitations

Have you ever flown a P-40?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

at 50% you just lose 2kmh topspeed compared to the official 530kmh topspeed listed in the manual

 

Devs said that the Yak-1B's top speed parameter IRL was measured with radiators open to a certain degree (35% for oil and 50% for water if i'm correct), so it's the max speed under those conditions, not the absolute max speed the plane can achieve (which would be closing more the radiators)

Edited March 6, 2017 by SuperEtendard

[19//Moach]

this is not a thread about engine limits in flight - all comments to that end are off topic and may be disregarded

 

 

back to the original subject - the issue being pointed out is the excessive capability of engines to remain cool on the ground and how this opposes published operating procedures (which we would like being able to follow) and perhaps how it possibly extends to overcooling issues in the air as well

 

there is no call for debate on the high temperature (let alone power) limits here, this is about the generally opposite problem - so please, back to topic before this gets locked and I gotta make my point all over again

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

This opens the issue of Warming up the engines from Cold as well. Because right now you can't really without giving a ton of Revs. 

[19//Moach]

This opens the issue of Warming up the engines from Cold as well. Because right now you can't really without giving a ton of Revs. 

 

exactly - which is another good point to remember, this makes that kinda startup very inconvenient

 

additionally, the main reason to warm up an engine of this sort is oil viscosity -- at lower temps, the oil is too thick, leading to improper flow across components and excessive pressures, particularly at high RPM

 

most engines have strict guidelines on how to go about warming it up after start, including limits on what RPMs can be used before reaching a given minimum temperature

 

in extreme cases, the cold and overly thick oil pressure can rise high enough to blow a gasket, though the main concern is of damage over time, which will reduce the engine's life expectancy and/or cause need for maintenance rather sooner than usual

 

 

as far as I've observed, the oil pressure gauge in the sim is merely decorative - it does not vary according to temperatures and/or rpm much at all, nor is it any good to indicate engine malfunction - even when oil is found on components not normally lubricated throughout the plane (i.e. the windshield)

 

IRL - the oil pressure gauge is the first place your focus goes to once the engine starts turning - if no pressure within a few seconds, it is imperative to shut it down before it does so by itself, then never to start up again...

 

 

in CloD, this is somewhat comically modelled (in a funny way, not necessarily an issue) - and the engine will cough and sputter in protest when revved up before reaching proper temps... that doesn't actually happen to a real engine if you do that - but it is nevertheless not a thing that one should do anyways, unless you want your mechanic to become rather less friendly towards yourself

 

 

 

A2A Simulations does a beautiful job of simulating the effect of oil temperatures on their warbirds - it is by far the best representation of this kind of engine I've ever had the joy of experiencing in a sim -- here's a video of what happens in such a situation, as seen on their formidable Mustang addon for FSX:  https://youtu.be/x8bWBhyTFj0?t=612

Edited March 7, 2017 by 19//Moach

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Tested this yesterday with a couple of aircraft (La-5, Fw 190 A-3, Ju 87, Ju 52) on the Moscow autum map running fully open and closed radiators at idle. For some reason none of them showed overheating tendencies at any setting (the Ju 87 would actually continue to cool down further with fully closed rads!) while the La-5 and Ju 52 would only start to overheat with fully closed radiators at a rate of 2°C / min (which seems quite low).

 

Don't know if it's an issue with the quick mission builder settings or the aircraft, but either way this seems very wrong.

 

Edit: We're not nessecarily talking about radiator effectiveness but also the heat emission of engines at idle setting.

Edited March 7, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[303_Kwiatek]

Yeah,

 

the 109 can be flown in a step climb, near Vso, full flaps down, engine in combat power, and the temps stay more or less static...

 

Would really like to see this addressed too...

Not true recently flying F4 in winter condition spiraling climb with Yaks at slow speed i experienced frequenlty overheating

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Just quickly people
Regarding "winter weather conditions" NOT all winter maps are near the same temps just coze there is snow does not mean its really cold

Maps in IL2 have snow from 0*C (not really cold and barely freezing)
Right down to -40*C (True cold winter map)

On the latter at altitudes of 5,000m you already looking @ -50*C

[unreasonable]

Just quickly people

Regarding "winter weather conditions" NOT all winter maps are near the same temps just coze there is snow does not mean its really cold

 

Maps in IL2 have snow from 0*C (not really cold and barely freezing)

Right down to -40*C (True cold winter map)

 

On the latter at altitudes of 5,000m you already looking @ -50*C

 

You are Canadian perhaps, or Finnish?

 

Zero C may not be "really cold" but it is still about 30 degrees C below the maximum temperature of the summer maps at mid-day. That is a huge difference.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Also freezing is not depending on temperature only but also outside pressure (GA guidline for danger of icing is +5 to -5 °C).

 

Winter conditions are not really relevant for comparing engine heat buildup in standard atmosphere settings though which I'd like to come back to.

[unreasonable]

I agree - if the calculations are wrong for standard atmosphere they will be wrong all the time.

 

I would note, however, that the Bf109 G2 manual states that running the engine at idle is the method used to cool down the engine if the coolant outflow temperature goes above 110*C in the run up.

 

To get Han to have a look at this you need to be as specific as possible - find a documented case where ground idling will cause overheating according to a manual or test report and replicate it in an edited mission. 

[19//Moach]

I agree - if the calculations are wrong for standard atmosphere they will be wrong all the time.

 

I would note, however, that the Bf109 G2 manual states that running the engine at idle is the method used to cool down the engine if the coolant outflow temperature goes above 110*C in the run up.

 

To get Han to have a look at this you need to be as specific as possible - find a documented case where ground idling will cause overheating according to a manual or test report and replicate it in an edited mission. 

 

 

it has been posted on the start of the thread - the manual for the IL2 lists warm-up procedures that cannot be followed (especially not in winter temperatures) - and the P40 video has the instructor make it abundantly clear that it will overheat if one does not takeoff quickly - though ours will overcool, even in summer weather

 

I'm not sure about the 109, but this seems to be a tendency across all planes (some more than others, for any unknowable amount of reasons)

 

 

it would be ideal indeed to have very specialized data for each plane and how warm-up relates to outside conditions... but this is extremely difficult to come across - so let us not defer improving this behavior to a satisfactory approximation because of that, since "better data" will almost always remain a thing that's largely more desired than available

Edited March 7, 2017 by 19//Moach