Fw 190A-5 vs Yak-1b

[JG13_opcode]

This situation happens to me on Berloga all the time:

 

Flying a 190, check 6 to find a fighter, let's say a Yak, who's not in guns range but well saddled up with almost no angle-off.  In the 109 depending on altitude and how far back the guy is, you can gain the offensive by spiral climbing.  I have not found this to work in the 190 unless I am up very high.

 

What do?  Is the 190 pilot in this scenario screwed?

 

 

[Willy__]

Run forest, run! (Until you get enough separation for doing a 180 and forcing a head-on)

[A_radek]

Opcode, no. From my experience online, at combat engine settings, your top speed is as much as his maximum. Go to emergency and you will quickly pull away. Your top speed allows you to dictate the fight as much as the 109 climb rate does.

[JG13_opcode]

You only get like 3 minutes of emergency, though.  I never seem to pull away at combat power unless at 3500m+

Edited March 4, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[A_radek]

Above goes for at stock vanilla a-5 not the +couple hundred kilos.

[Willy__]

The 190 pilot is only screwed if the Yak get within gun range with no altitude to dive. Otherwise it is possible to pull away. Keep in mind, it will take several minutes to pull away if the yak pilot does not disengage, which lead to not so funny situations with some russian pilots chasing 190s through the entire map.

[A_radek]

That"s strange haven't measured emergency time but thought it was more than 3 mins. Rads open?

 

Edit: cowl flaps, sorry

Edited March 4, 2017 by aa_radek

[Finkeren]

Far from it. IMHO the Fw 190A5 is the best fighter in the sim.

 

Just slam the throttle fully open and close the cowl flaps, go into a shallow dive and put some distance between you. Once you are at a safe distance pull up and use your superior zoom climb to get above him. Fight him in the vertical from there. Don, ever turn with him exept for a short moment to line up a shot.

[Original_Uwe]

1.42 will last much more than 3 minutes, last time I tested the A-3 I got a little more than 6 minutes on the deck in level flight.

[Finkeren]

1.42 will last much more than 3 minutes, last time I tested the A-3 I got a little more than 6 minutes on the deck in level flight.

That's my experience as well. I think it's a typo in the specs. I normally calculate with around 5mins at emergency.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

Opcode, what did you say above is what happens in this video from 0:13? (At lower altitude)

[JG13_opcode]

 

 

Opcode, what did you say above is what happens in this video from 0:13?

 

 

Yeah, I can do that up high too, but I find down low I can't.

 

Perhaps it's just the limited area on berloga but I never seem to get away.

[Roo5ter]

One thing to keep in mind is running in a FW is pretty safe compared to many other fighters.  If you do take some hits, the Yak is pretty limited in ammo, you are already increasing separation, and the FW is quite durable and slanted from rear to front.  While that might not add up to a win, it also adds up to a survive since most people use Berloga to practice for the real deal anyways.  

Finkeren I am going to have to try your advice.  I don't really play on Berloga a ton but I should set up a key for manual cowl flaps and check it out.

[Finkeren]

When running in the Fw 190 I find it very important to be in a shallow dive (no more than a meter or two per second) and definitely not be in a climb of any sort. If you climb slowly, you will get caught be both Yaks and La-5s. When fighting in the vertical, I find it more effective to use the Fw 190s awesome zoom climb rather than the power climbs and chandelles that work well in the 109s.

[Willy__]

 

 

When running in the Fw 190 I find it very important to be in a shallow dive (no more than a meter or two per second) and definitely not be in a climb of any sort. If you climb slowly, you will get caught be both Yaks and La-5s. When fighting in the vertical, I find it more effective to use the Fw 190s awesome zoom climb rather than the power climbs and chandelles that work well in the 109s.

 

 

Yeah, go vertical and get yourself sniped by russian guns. 

[Finkeren]

 

 

Yeah, go vertical and get yourself sniped by russian guns. 

 

 

If a Soviet fighter can follow you in a zoom climb from a high start speed, then you're doing something wrong.

 

I'm not a very good pilot, and before 2.007 I absolutely sucked at flying the Fw 190, but even I can now get on top of a Yak by pulling into a zoom climb from 500+ km/h. You can pull up so much sharper than him at that speed and he has no chance of catching you in a zoom climb.

[Roo5ter]

If a Soviet fighter can follow you in a zoom climb from a high start speed, then you're doing something wrong.

 

I'm not a very good pilot, and before 2.007 I absolutely sucked at flying the Fw 190, but even I can now get on top of a Yak by pulling into a zoom climb from 500+ km/h. You can pull up so much sharper than him at that speed and he has no chance of catching you in a zoom climb.

He just challenged you to a duel.  Accept or Refuse.

[JG13_opcode]

 

 

I'm not a very good pilot, and before 2.007 I absolutely sucked at flying the Fw 190, but even I can now get on top of a Yak by pulling into a zoom climb from 500+ km/h. You can pull up so much sharper than him at that speed and he has no chance of catching you in a zoom climb.

 

Got track?  Would like to see. 

[Willy__]

If a Soviet fighter can follow you in a zoom climb from a high start speed, then you're doing something wrong.

 

You cant outclimb/outzoom bullets, they can and will go up there, hence the term, snipe. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[MAJ_stug41]

I just tested the a3 and was able to sustain max/max for 9 minutes before the engine gave up. This is longer than the la5 without improved engine can sustain boost to keep with, without overheating.

[Finkeren]

You cant outclimb/outzoom bullets, they can and will go up there, hence the term, snipe.

Yeah, but my point is, that he shouldn't be able to even get you in his sights until you're way out of range.

[Original_Uwe]

I just tested the a3 and was able to sustain max/max for 9 minutes before the engine gave up. This is longer than the la5 without improved engine can sustain boost to keep with, without overheating.

The LA-5 is no threat to the 190. If one gets the jump on you yes that's bad, but the same is true of even an I-16.

The 190 can easily turn inside the LA-5, accelerates better, and is faster if I recall correctly.

Honestly I've been shot down by them when I didn't see them, or spotted them too late, but if you see it coming it's nothing to really worry about.

The Yaks though, excellent aircraft. Absolutely superb fighters.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

The LA-5 is no threat to the 190.

I always get a kick out of the forums.

 

In a thread no less than a week ago there were 2 guys complaining about how completely overpowered the La-5 is compared to the 190.  Naturally they have zero time in said aircraft but it's good for a laugh to see the absolutely polar opposite opinions.

[Original_Uwe]

I always get a kick out of the forums.

In a thread no less than a week ago there were 2 guys complaining about how completely overpowered the La-5 is compared to the 190.  Naturally they have zero time in said aircraft but it's good for a laugh to see the absolutely polar opposite opinions.

Well opinions are opinions and given freely worth exactly what they cost lol.

As with any of the aircraft the pilot is the most important part, and position is critical, but head to head, even fight starting after the merge I don't see how the LA-5 poses a real threat to the 190. Comparing them as equally as possible the 190 seems to be the clear winner.

Again though I've been owned by some LA-5s. Usually when I don't see them coming or I do something stupid. If I'm on my game and do my part the 190 takes care of the rest.

Yaks though...watch out!

[Finkeren]

I agree with Uwe. In an equal energy situation, there is no reason why the Fw 190 shouldn't be able to dictate the fight.

[Guest deleted@50488]

@JAGER:  Excellent video an tactics !  Thx for sharing !

[Original_Uwe]

Hmmm that has not been my experience. Not saying you're wrong I've just never seen it.

I think players shy away from it because it's simply not as capable as the Yak-1.

[TheJay13]

I don't really agree on it being less capable. It is perfectly capable. I suspect the reason people shy away from it is that they perceive it as being more difficult to fly than the 109 which in some respects it can be, particularly in regards to discipline and tactics, but it still has the performance to beat a Yak.

[Finkeren]

I don't just think it's capable. If you keep its speed up it is arguably the single best fighter in the sim.

[Original_Uwe]

I don't just think it's capable. If you keep its speed up it is arguably the single best fighter in the sim.

Absolutely. Given a high enough speed it can turn with the yak for a short time.

I've been a 109 jockey since il2 beta back in 2000, but this 190 makes the 109 feel ancient and sluggish.

[GridiroN]

1.42 will last much more than 3 minutes, last time I tested the A-3 I got a little more than 6 minutes on the deck in level flight.

 

 

That's my experience as well. I think it's a typo in the specs. I normally calculate with around 5mins at emergency.

 

 

I just tested the a3 and was able to sustain max/max for 9 minutes before the engine gave up. This is longer than the la5 without improved engine can sustain boost to keep with, without overheating.

 

Guys, they've explained the engine emergency and combat time over teamspeak meetings before already. The time given in the map manual isn't a hard number; it's the safe time, after which the engine faces a random chance of failure every minute or so afterwards. 

 

It's 1C's solution to the inability to simulate wear and tear on engines if you use them beyond the factories suggested every day limit. 

[Original_Uwe]

Oh well that's rather brilliant, I didn't realize they were doing such random failures.

[216th_Jordan]

On thing often not taken into account is that to perform successfully in almost any plane with a big turn radius is that you need to operate in teams.

 

The Yak-1b can take small turns, fw can not. Thats the reason so many lone emils lose against the ishak. Fly the Fw as a pair and its almost unbeatable.

[Finkeren]

That's not even necessarilly true Jordan. 109s can BnZ any Soviet fighter to kingdom come without ever having to turn, and the Fw 190 can out-maneuver a Yak, if the speed is high enough.

 

No need for team mates (though obviously working as a team always helps, regardless what plane you're flying)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Finkeren

[216th_Jordan]

Well, there is an exception to everything We might just label 109s as vertical turnfighters The 190 lacks here though and the window for it to get hit gets exponentially bigger. Also talking Co-Alt and Co-E here. 

[Finkeren]

Well, there is an exception to everything We might just label 109s as vertical turnfighters The 190 lacks here though and the window for it to get hit gets exponentially bigger. Also talking Co-Alt and Co-E here.

Sure enough. You don't engage a Yak in the Fw 190 if you are both going 300 km/h. That would be playing into his hand. You accellerate until you are at a speed, where you have the advantage, and then you take him on. If you fail the first couple of attacks, disengage and rebuild your energy.

 

It's trickier than the 109s where you can just climb, climb, climb until you're on top of him, but it definitely works.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

Guys, they've explained the engine emergency and combat time over teamspeak meetings before already. The time given in the map manual isn't a hard number; it's the safe time, after which the engine faces a random chance of failure every minute or so afterwards. 

 

It's 1C's solution to the inability to simulate wear and tear on engines if you use them beyond the factories suggested every day limit. 

 

I know that, but with the Fw 190s there seems to be an issue. The engine never, ever breaks down prior to 5mins, which is what you'd expect once in a while, if the limit is 3 mins.

 

Today I did some testing with both the A3 and A5, to see how long I could run the emergency power setting. It was on autumn map using standard loadout (100% fuel, no MG-FFs) all tests done at low altitude ~300m.

 

The A3 does 560 km/h on the deck with no overheating issues. The A5 does about the same with cowl flaps fully open, 575 km/h with 20% open (which is the best you can hope to do without overheating) and 580 km/h with flaps closed. Try beating that in an La-5F.

 

I did 10 tests on each aircraft, and I was consistently able to run on emergency power for more than 5 mins. Not once did the engine suffer damage before the 5:00 mark.

 

The point at which the engine suffered first damage varied from 5:15 to 7:58, in a large majority of cases, the engine broke between 6 and 7 minutes. There was a small tendency for the A5 to break earlier, but not enough to be significant.

 

I don't know if there is a typo in the specs or this is a modeling error (or maybe even done on purpose) but the safe limit is not 3 mins, at least not in practical terms. This is very different to how it's modeled in the Daimler-Benz engined planes, where breakdown will occur within seconds of crossing the limit.

 

Personally I think the way it's done on the Fw 190 is better. 

 

Also: There seems to be an issue in that the technochat doesn't give a warning, that you've crossed the time limit in the Fw 190, the way it does on other planes.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Finkeren

[Dr_Molem]

On thing often not taken into account is that to perform successfully in almost any plane with a big turn radius is that you need to operate in teams.

 

The Yak-1b can take small turns, fw can not. Thats the reason so many lone emils lose against the ishak. Fly the Fw as a pair and its almost unbeatable.

 

No, you don't need to be 2 FW 190 to be able to destroy a single Yak or no matter which fighter "safely", at all.

 

How to beat a better turning plane ? High Yo-Yo says hello.

 

Often folks think they need a teammate to get out of a hairy situation while they just have to understand, to learn, how to maneuver in a high wing-loading fighter, nothing else (something that is not hard when you have most of advantages in your side).

Edited March 6, 2017 by Dr_Molem

[Willy__]

 

 

-snip-

 

 

A good Yak pilot will simply evade all your shots, buying time for others VVS arrive on the scene and finish the poor focker.

[Roo5ter]

 

 

A good Yak pilot will simply evade all your shots, buying time for others VVS arrive on the scene and finish the poor focker.

 

Yes, the AC of the Yak is 16 therefore you will need high attack modifiers to even have a chance to get a good enough roll and land a hit.

 

Your point isn't entirely invalid it is simply fairly ridiculous.  Also I have a question for you on the VVS fighters coming to help.  What mechanics in the game make a fight between a FW and Yak that takes let's say 5 minutes, gives excess VVS fighters time to arrive on scene but not Luftwaffe?  Are the Luftwaffe less capable of flying towards an area to help allies than the VVS?  Just trying to understand what makes X amount of time an unequal equation in the favor of the VVS.  Hope you can clarify that for me because I truly do not understand.