Need realistic Supercharge switch

[[RG]Flanker1985]

I have just tested the supercharge switch earlier and realised that it have been simplified compare to the original IL-2. There is only 1 button to switch both upper and lower volume. There are a few limitation for setting like this.

1: Sometimes during the heat of the battle, we may forget what setting was it on. And we may need to check it. But Check it need time, therefore reduce the pilot combat situation awareness.

2: To Realism focused hardcare player like me. We can't map it realistically. For example, the real supercharge control is very similar to the radiator switch. With the software, we can map it on the left axis of the Throttle Quadrant and map the water radiator and oil radiator in the middle and right axis respectively just like the real thing. But the current one button switch can do so. Therefore the old 2 button switch is better and more realistic. Hope everyone agree with me, and we can ask the developing team to re-modify it before the final release of the game.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

All I am saying is if we can have 2 button like the old IL-2, it will be much better. 1 for "next stage", and 1 for "previous stage".

Edited December 7, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[LukeFF]

 But Check it need time, therefore reduce the pilot combat situation awareness.

 

It takes half a second to look at it. Not exactly something hard to do.

Edited December 7, 2013 by LukeFF

[JtD]

Hope everyone agree with me, and we can ask the developing team to re-modify it before the final release of the game.

I agree, but I consider it just one of the many things in controls where BoS is worse than Il-2. There was no aircraft in WW2 that had a "change supercharger gear" control. Also, there were airplanes with more than two supercharger stages, where they'll have to think of something new anyway.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

It takes half a second to look at it. Not exactly something hard to do.

Half a second for me to do a head down to see the switch is enough for the enemy plane to disappear, especially if there are multiple planes. We need tactical awareness.

 

 

I agree, but I consider it just one of the many things in controls where BoS is worse than Il-2. There was no aircraft in WW2 that had a "change supercharger gear" control. Also, there were airplanes with more than two supercharger stages, where they'll have to think of something new anyway.

 

Easy, we can assign it to one of axis on the Throttle Quadrant. 0%~15% will be the first stage, 45%~55% as the second stage and the 90%~100% as the third stage.

Edited December 7, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[SYN_Vorlander]

Wow Luke,

 

For someone being so close to the development team you always have the best answers. The gents are trying to assist in the development of the alpha stage.

 

Think.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

What do you mean?? I thought this game focuses on realism.

[Scarecrow]

+1 For a different key/command for each supercharger stage plz

[=38=Tatarenko]

More particularly, I'm pretty sure there were restrictions on how often you could change. I seem to remember it was only 1x per 2 minutes in the La-5FN for example IRL. If that is the case then I hope it is modelled.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

More particularly, I'm pretty sure there were restrictions on how often you could change. I seem to remember it was only 1x per 2 minutes in the La-5FN for example IRL. If that is the case then I hope it is modelled.

 

Yes, more realism is always better and welcomed. After all we are here for a Simulation, otherwise we would have stick with the old Salamander game.

Edited December 7, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[von_Tom]

If you're going to request it please do so in the Founders forum where the developers request it.

 

Hood

[[RG]Flanker1985]

If you're going to request it please do so in the Founders forum where the developers request it.

 

Hood

 

 

You mean this place? http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/39-founders-group/

I have just been there. But for some reason, I can't post new topic there. Weird, I am a founder.

Edited December 7, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[LukeFF]

You mean this place? http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/39-founders-group/

I have just been there. But for some reason, I can't post new topic there. Weird, I am a founder.

 

There's a thread there for suggestions. Use it.

 

EDIT: Here: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2255-thread-gather-your-suggestions-current-version/

Edited December 7, 2013 by LukeFF

[[RG]Flanker1985]

Thank you, mate.

[SR-F_Winger]

I am all for more keycommands as well. Its especially essential to have on/off AND toggle buttons for people that use some sort of simpit.

This superchargersetting would make only one of many that need to be added IMHO.

[Finkeren]

I generally think it's a good idea to have the option of both a toggle key and two "+/-" keys for this sort of thing.

 

It's quite small issue though. No need to talk it up, like it's some big thing.

[Mogster]

More particularly, I'm pretty sure there were restrictions on how often you could change. I seem to remember it was only 1x per 2 minutes in the La-5FN for example IRL. If that is the case then I hope it is modelled.

 

Yes that's the sort of thing that really should be included.

 

If BOS engine modelling really is as sophisticated as the DCS planes then that sort of detail needs to be in. 

[JtD]

I generally think it's a good idea to have the option of both a toggle key and two "+/-" keys for this sort of thing.

I'd rather have generic "+/-/toggle(/....)" switches that can be combined with any subsystem, activated with another key, without specifically designating them. Saves a lot of of setting up. Instead of 3 keys for each system, you need one per system plus three(/...) generic ones.

Edited December 9, 2013 by JtD

[[RG]Flanker1985]

Good idea, mate.

Like I mentioned earlier, we can assign it to one of axis on the Throttle Quadrant. 0%~15% will be the first stage, 45%~55% as the second stage and the 90%~100% as the third stage.

[Sokol1]

I agree, but I consider it just one of the many things in controls where BoS is worse than Il-2. There was no aircraft in WW2 that had a "change supercharger gear" control. Also, there were airplanes with more than two supercharger stages, where they'll have to think of something new anyway.

 

This is language - and (bad?) translation - related:

 

From original LaGG-3 manual

 

65. Выключить форсаж (мотор М-105П).

 

Google translate this as "Switch off the "furious" (engine M-104II).

 

68. На высоте 3000 м с моторам М-105П и 3000 м с мотором М-105ПФ включить вторую скорость нагнетателя.

 

This as "At an altitude of 3000 meters with M-105P and 3000 m with M-105PF engage the second blower speed."

 

In Cl+D(ister) форсаж are translated as "Afterburner"... Yes in WWII planes the HUD show a big blue AFTERBURNER:ON.

 

Google this world форсаж and see what it is synonymous.

 

Since for majority gamers this "It's quite small issue though. No need to talk it up, like it's some big thing", still.

 

Sokol1

Edited December 10, 2013 by Sokol1

[JtD]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

My point is that all aircraft had switches or levers to engage or disengage supercharger gears. But no aircraft had a single button which you had to press that would engage the second supercharger stage/speed if it was off and disengage it if it was on. But this is how it is done in game right now. Not good.

[Sokol1]

Klimov M-105 engine supercharger - driven by engine crankshaft - have two speed gear.

 

 

Supercharger: Gear-driven two-speed centrifugal type compressor. Gear ratios: 7.78:1 (1st speed) 11.0:1 (2nd speed). Maximum boost for take-off: 965 mm Hg (38.00 MP), subsequent variants had 1,100 or 1,200 mm Hg. Maximum boost at altitude: 920 mm Hg (36.22 MP), subsequent variants had 1,100 mm Hg. Emergency boost (maximum 2 minutes): 1,100 mm Hg (43.30 MP) at 2,800 RPM. Critical altitude: 2,000 m (6,561 ft) at 1st speed, 4,000 m (13,123 ft) at 2nd speed.

 

So, in fact you are "changing supercharger gear".

 

Sokol1

[[RG]Flanker1985]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

My point is that all aircraft had switches or levers to engage or disengage supercharger gears. But no aircraft had a single button which you had to press that would engage the second supercharger stage/speed if it was off and disengage it if it was on. But this is how it is done in game right now. Not good.

 

 

Me too, I don't think Sokol1 understood the English we spoke.

Also, where did the afterburn coming from. I didn't see anyone mentioned afterburn.

Edited December 10, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[Oesau]

What do you mean?? I thought this game focuses on realism.

I think it's trying to strike a balance between realism and playability (to make it accessible) - it's not a hardcore sim in terms of system modeling in which the user can interact with (and that's fine).

Edited December 10, 2013 by Oesau

[Sokol1]

Me too, I don't think Sokol1 understood the English we spoke.

Also, where did the afterburn coming from. I didn't see anyone mentioned afterburn.

 

I just mention this "Afterburner" case as example of games use of bad name for functions, due languages differences (in case should by WEP).

In this, the "Recharge" in GUI already cause some "broken nails".

 

You are right in his request for two buttons for sequential functions (case of supercharger).

 

If game allow I never use "toggle" for landing gear, because if game pretend by "realistic" this dont help in notthing,

one end are with a extend and broke landing gear in flight due press G by mistake.  But you know gamers, they think

that have all functions in one key is more easy/practical/accessible.

 

The most annoyed example is radiator in old il-2: R for 2... 8, open, auto, close.

How many times one think in open the radiator and find that R press leave then in 2 position, and need cycling again...

 

Sokol1

Edited December 10, 2013 by Sokol1

[[RG]Flanker1985]

I think it's trying to strike a balance between realism and playability (to make it accessible) - it's not a hardcore sim in terms of system modeling in which the user can interact with (and that's fine).

 

Not really. Last I heard, it's trying to make it more realistic than COD.

Also, there just isn't necessary to "strike a balance between realism and playability", because to non-realism focused players, all they have to do is simply change realism option.

 

 

I just mention this "Afterburner" case as example of games use of bad name for functions, due languages differences (in case should by WEP).

In this, the "Recharge" in GUI already cause some "broken nails".

 

You are right in his request for two buttons for sequential functions (case of supercharger).

 

If game allow I never use "toggle" for landing gear, because if game pretend by "realistic" this dont help in notthing,

one end are with a extend and broke landing gear in flight due press G by mistake.  But you know gamers, they think

that have all functions in one key is more easy/practical/accessible.

 

The most annoyed example is radiator in old il-2: R for 2... 8, open, auto, close.

How many times one think in open the radiator and find that R press leave then in 2 position, and need cycling again...

 

Sokol1

 

OK, I see.

LOL it appears I was the one who didn't understood.

Edited December 10, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[FuriousMeow]

So the previous Il-2 series had next supercharger gear and previous supercharger gear. Two key presses.

 

Right now it's a single key, to go from 1st stage to 2nd stage and then back to first stage. If another plane with 3 stages comes in, 1st stage to 2nd stage to 3rd stage and then press again to go back to 2nd stage then to 1st stage.

 

What's the big deal? If you assign it to a rotary or an axis, you still have it going 1st stage to 2nd stage to etc and back. I'd prefer the button approach.

 

If you have two keys to go next/previous, you still have to look at the lever to remember which stage you're at - the keys aren't going to magically tell you.

Edited December 10, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[[RG]Flanker1985]

Right now it's a single key, to go from 1st stage to 2nd stage and then back to first stage. If another plane with 3 stages comes in, 1st stage to 2nd stage to 3rd stage and then press again to go back to 2nd stage then to 1st stage.

 

What's the big deal? If you assign it to a rotary or an axis, you still have it going 1st stage to 2nd stage to etc and back. I'd prefer the button approach.

 

If you have two keys to go next/previous, you still have to look at the lever to remember which stage you're at - the keys aren't going to magically tell you.

 

 

Please read all reply before you make a comment, because we already addressed that issue.

We don't need to look, just by touch it.

Edited December 12, 2013 by HarbingerFlanker1985

[Matt]

 

For example, the real supercharge control is very similar to the radiator switch. With the software, we can map it on the left axis of the Throttle Quadrant and map the water radiator and oil radiator in the middle and right axis respectively just like the real thing.

 I've mapped it exactly like this on my Saitek throttle quadrant and control the supercharger with the left lever, radiators with the other two.

 

Is that not working for you?

[[RG]Flanker1985]

 I've mapped it exactly like this on my Saitek throttle quadrant and control the supercharger with the left lever, radiators with the other two.

 

Is that not working for you?

 

What do you mean? That's exactly what I have been saying. That is how it should be, of course it's working for me.

[FuriousMeow]

Please read all reply before you make a comment, because we already addressed that issue.

We don't need to look, just by touch it.

 

I did read it all, as I said - if you map it to an axis you can't tell where it's at anyway. I have radiator and mixture set to rotary knobs, I can't "touch it" and tell where it's set - I have to look at the levers/guages in the cockpit.

 

You must have some fancy HOTAS if you can touch the axis or rotary and know exactly where it's at. I have the X52Pro, I can guess where the rotary knobs are set but unless I look at the guages or cockpit levers I can't tell for certain.

[Matt]

What do you mean? That's exactly what I have been saying. That is how it should be, of course it's working for me.

 

OK, then i just don't understand this:

 

 

2: To Realism focused hardcare player like me. We can't map it realistically.

 

Because, you can map it realistically. Adding a two stage button (or next/previous supercharger setting) would make things less realistic.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

I did read it all, as I said - if you map it to an axis you can't tell where it's at anyway. I have radiator and mixture set to rotary knobs, I can't "touch it" and tell where it's set - I have to look at the levers/guages in the cockpit.

 

You must have some fancy HOTAS if you can touch the axis or rotary and know exactly where it's at. I have the X52Pro, I can guess where the rotary knobs are set but unless I look at the guages or cockpit levers I can't tell for certain.

 

What do you mean? When can touch your axis and feel it's position. For example you don't need to see your throttle to know it's position. You can feel it with your hand.

 

 

OK, then i just don't understand this:

 

 

Because, you can map it realistically. Adding a two stage button (or next/previous supercharger setting) would make things less realistic.

 

I think you just don't know how to use the saitek software.

[silent_one]

Harbinger Not everyone has a Saitek or has an axis free.  I have a Cougar. It has 3 axes. which Ill be using for throttle , prop pitch and fuel mix. Anyway think about it. Not everyone is going to have any HOTAS at all so what to they get to use..... Maybe buttons. duh. lol. So instead of demanding axes for everyone why not think of asking for what buttons could be utilized to get the flexibility you want. Then consider how you can map this to your HOTAS so you can have your axes.

 

Regarding your facetious answer to Matt suggesting he doesnt know his software. I would suggest you arnt familiar with what a rotary is. Lets look at a  x 65

Stick controls include:
3 x 8-way hats
1 x 8-way thumb hat
1 x trigger
2 x buttons
2 x pinkie switches
Throttle controls include:
2 x rotaries (incorporating push button controls)
1 x mouse hat
4 x 8-way hats
1 x 2 way ‘K’ switch
1 x scroll selector
1 x 4 position mode switch

 

Note the rotaries are knobs. Not levers like the throttle itself.

 

Matt is saying that if you look at a featureless round knob ( a rotary) you cant tell its position. Which is correct. You are confusing a lever eg a throttle , with rotary eg a rotating knob. Matt is correct, you cannot intuitively know where a rotary is pointing . Unlike a lever. Your posts tone is rather condescending towards Matt . Whereas the person in ignorance was you. 

Edited December 16, 2013 by silent_one

[Jaws2002]

So the previous Il-2 series had next supercharger gear and previous supercharger gear. Two key presses.

 

Right now it's a single key, to go from 1st stage to 2nd stage and then back to first stage. If another plane with 3 stages comes in, 1st stage to 2nd stage to 3rd stage and then press again to go back to 2nd stage then to 1st stage.

What's the big deal? If you assign it to a rotary or an axis, you still have it going 1st stage to 2nd stage to etc and back. I'd prefer the button approach.

 

If you have two keys to go next/previous, you still have to look at the lever to remember which stage you're at - the keys aren't going to magically tell you.

 

 

This is a combat sim. You can't expect to always fly in the same sequence. first stage, then second then third......

The old il2 had two controls to go to "next stage" and "previous stage".  That one works ok with engines with multiple stages. as you climb you go to the next stage and when you dive you go to the previous stage. It's easy to understand. It's simple logic.

    Let's say you climb and switch gears going up, if the bad guy jumps you when you are in second of three gears and have to dive, you don't go to stage three and then to stage one. Most planes couldn't take that kind of abuse. You go to previous stage.

Simple logic.  Climbing click "next stage", diving click "previous stage".

[[RG]Flanker1985]

Harbinger Not everyone has a Saitek or has an axis free.

 

Doesn't matter in this case. It's about to give supercharge a 2 button control like before.

Even if you don't have an axis, all you need is a 2 way switch. Then you can feel it with your hand. So you don't have to look.

[FuriousMeow]

What do you mean? When can touch your axis and feel it's position. For example you don't need to see your throttle to know it's position. You can feel it with your hand.

 

Throttle yes, The rest of the axis - no. The rotary axis, can't tell where they are at since they don't have an indicators for location. The slider I can tell by looking at it, but the rest - no - you can't tell by feel.

[[RG]Flanker1985]

Throttle yes, The rest of the axis - no. The rotary axis, can't tell where they are at since they don't have an indicators for location. The slider I can tell by looking at it, but the rest - no - you can't tell by feel.

I don't think you know what am I talking about.

[AX2]

Only one Key or button is bad

Two keys or buttons is a good option.

An axis of the Throttle Quadrant is the best option.

 

But I don´t have Throttle Quadrant   ....  

Edited February 13, 2014 by Mustang

[FuriousMeow]

I don't think you know what am I talking about.

 

I have a X52 Pro, so I do. You do not know the location of the rotary axis unless it's sitting around the 50% mark or at the far extreme (0% or 100%) and you can feel it by hitting an indent or the furthest extent. The throttle is obviously easy to tell it's location. The slider on the X52 is the only thing you can tell by touch it's rough location.

 

So unless you have axis beyond the traditional X/Y and Z (throttle), then you can't feel their location.

Edited February 14, 2014 by FuriousMeow