How to fly the LAGG against the 109?

[Bando]

I get my *ss handed to me every time.

I'm not the best pilot out there, but I should be able to get some hits, but I don't.

I tried getting higher, he kills me, I tried flying low, either he outturns me in the vertical, or I fly myself into cumulus terra.

Level fighting is a no go as well.

 

So how did the Russian pilots cope with this when they were 1 on 1.

 

[BeastyBaiter]

As a general rule, they didn't. That said I seem to be doing ok with it. The 109 is much easier, but the LaGG handles better at higher speeds and has a better roll rate. If you can get the bot to enter into a descending rolling scissors with you, you'll have him. But the instant they try to start circle climbing or looping endlessly all you can really do is extend away horizontally.

[AndyHill]

In reality diving to safety was more of an option, since it was dangerous to chase after someone. If you managed to surprise someone you could get a shot, otherwise you would have a decent chance of disengaging. In simulators it doesn't usually work that way, so the situation is more difficult for the plane with less power and agility.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

109 is an energy fighter so as Hrothgar said scissor. And roll, dodge duck, dive, cry like a girl, dodge again and extend! So far from what I've seen the 109 is going to be very hard to beat comrade.

[Bando]

Ok,   At least I'm not alone then.

 

Even the AI gets the better of me, but I will keep trying.

[Sternjaeger]

"How to fly the LAGG against the 109?"

 

Eastwards, full-throttled and on the deck. 

[Jaws2002]

"How to fly the LAGG against the 109?"

 

Eastwards, full-throttled and on the deck.

 

 

That works until you get to that wall at the end of the map. LoL

[Bando]

  That's sound advice Sternjaeger.

 

Well I got the first kill by doing the scissors and after a while I finally got behind the 109. He was exploding quite nice.

Was a good feeling after being shot several times with my windscreen and indicators gone always. Isn't that strange?

In the LAGG my damage is always the breaking glass. Mind you, there was more damage, but the broken glass was always there as well.

Bit strange.

[Karost]

That works until you get to that wall at the end of the map. LoL

good tactic

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I have had a little success.  Head to head, the 109 did a climbing turn, I yo-yo'd and got an ugly deflection shot and I don't know if I hit him (seems unlikely) or what but a split-s and I started closing on him in a fairly gentle climbing turn to the right - it was like he had lost sight of me.  Can the AI lose sight?

 

A very quick burst and he decided that he was done flying for the day.

 

 

 

 

[pixelshader]

I think just pulling vertical at the headon will let you take out these ai quick. Against a real player it probably won't be so easy though 

 

[Trident_109]

Lack of trim doesn't help the LaGG either. It messes up my situational awareness and consistent maneuvers. I have to pay attention more to my climb angle, roll axis because in the heat of battle I in-verdantly climb or roll and change my intended trajectory when I don't want to. So I end up losing track of the enemy more than I'd like.

 

I have managed to shoot down a few 109s thanks to Andy and Hrothgar. I always climb to about 2000m and roll over on top of the enemy. If I miss I extend. If I'm caught in battle I'll try rolling scissors but again the stick and lack of trim make it harder than it needs to be.

 

In time we'll get trim.

 

[StG2_xgitarrist]

Try to be at least 1000 meters above your enemy when you start the engagment. That gives you a good energy advantage. Try to keep the energy andvantage as long as possible, dont give it all up in the first turn. Sometimes do some "lucky shots" with ur machineguns from greater distance with generous deflection (machinegunes can deal quit some damage).

However, I didnt fight yet against an Ace-bot. I dont know how difficult this will be.

[dkoor]

I've noticed that some of you guys fly very low.

Even with 109.

 

That's no.1 rule what NOT to do.

 

If you show up on waypoint A with 2500m altitude you'll likely be around 1k ABOVE the enemy aircraft.

Even with I-16 Rata you shouldn't have probs dealing with 109 in such scenario.

 

I was actually amazed that I couldn't find my opponent first time I flew combat mission... game said he spawned... meh but he was like 1,5k below me

[=38=Tatarenko]

I figure that with 1km alt advantage I get 2 boom zoom passes against the Messer before I lose a distinct energy advantage in the third. So I'd be looking to hit him by firing a lot more than I'm used to in Il-2 and then getting out of there after the second pass.

 

Also, we are up against novices (mainly) and I think they lose sight easily then level out.

 

Lastly, I did a head to head against a Messer (and they fire from a long way out!) but got a single bullet into the pilot. That was enough. Quite dramatic to see an otherwise undamaged aircraft plough in with the pilot slumped over.

 

OK, so as dkoor says, with a height advantage even a rata can kill a Messer quite easily. At anything like parity the Messer will eat the LaGG.

 

And I think the slow/low thing puts the LaGG at even more of a disadvantage. The Messer seems much more stable when slow. The LaGG likes doing 400.

[dkoor]

And I think the slow/low thing puts the LaGG at even more of a disadvantage. The Messer seems much more stable when slow. The LaGG likes doing 400.

Yep, just did a quick mission first climbed to advantageous height then dispatched the novice 109 that spawned beneath me into the dirt.

I've noticed that LaGG exhibits quite nasty behaviour if pushed hard into a maneuver.

Wing drops to one side and "swoosh" sound (of stall?) appears.

As you said, once the speed is up it doesn't have such probs.

 

I'd describe LaGG maneuverability as decent and nice overall, while handling the 109 is noticeably better especially at low speed. In all truth feels a bit more agile overall.

 

Haven't tried to test the dives, someone reported that LaGG dives better which may be interesting fact for LaGG pilots.

[Fodder]

By default both mg and cannon are bound to the trigger. I'm used to having separate buttons so I changed it. Given there are few opportunities to get the 109 in my sights I think I may change it back so I let loose with everything the Lagg has. What do you guys do?

 

I think the key to success in MP will be teamwork. For me that is the most enjoyable part of these sims

[=38=Tatarenko]

All together unless armed with a 37mm.

[=38=Tatarenko]

OK, I think we all know the drill if confronted by lower Messers or a stack of Stukas with Messer escort (dive on the Stukas and eat them!).

 

But what if we are alone and jumped by higher Messers? Die gracefully?

 

I think this is why LaGGs weren't off free hunting. I think I'd want to be in diving range of a largeish friendly AA concentration (flak hugger!).

 

The mission that concerns me is low level Sturmovik escort. The Messers will just eat us.

 

Actually, the current difficulty in spotting the enemy might make it possible to disappear in a full real server. Go for a head on then just keep going!

[BeastyBaiter]

Here's a video of me engaging a 109 with roughly equal initial energy. I did not out fly him, I simply evaded his attacks and then sniped with the MG. Gunnery FTW.

 

http://youtu.be/YKAusWflVg0

 

The video has some issues with fps and sound. It didn't compress very well for some reason. Probably just too big tbh, initial AVI was over 4GB.

[=38=Tatarenko]

That is very nice gunnery!

[dkoor]

Here's a video of me engaging a 109 with roughly equal initial energy. I did not out fly him, I simply evaded his attacks and then sniped with the MG. Gunnery FTW.

 

http://youtu.be/YKAusWflVg0

 

The video has some issues with fps and sound. It didn't compress very well for some reason. Probably just too big tbh, initial AVI was over 4GB.

Nice  .

 

Back in the 2003-2004 Badsight (guy from UBi Zoo forums) underlined gunnery as no.1 priority skill in that game.

I agreed 100%.

Your flying level doesn't have to be stellar at all, you could really be mediocre there with only one thing in mind: get higher than oppo and surprise him if you can.

You don't have to do fancy Immelmans, scissors etc. because if you do, you probably did something wrong in the first place.

 

That sound true today too. Whole purpose of playing this is to have fun and obtain excellent level of gunnery in the process... 'cos one doesn't work without the other.

 

Leave fancy style flying to Red Bull air racers.

Edited December 7, 2013 by dkoor

[JG4_Greif]

I climbed to 2000-3000m and then attacked the 109 from above. For me, it is a bit difficult to aim with the Lagg, because you cannot trim it.

 

Ignore the music, when I made the video I did not intend upload it  

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN5YPOHEwbk&feature=youtu.be

 

I tried to escape those 109 when I was out of ammunition.

[6S.Manu]

Nice  .

 

Back in the 2003-2004 Badsight (guy from UBi Zoo forums) underlined gunnery as no.1 priority skill in that game.

I agreed 100%.

Your flying level doesn't have to be stellar at all, you could really be mediocre there with only one thing in mind: get higher than oppo and surprise him if you can.

You don't have to do fancy Immelmans, scissors etc. because if you do, you probably did something wrong in the first place.

 

 

 

The most important thing in fighting was shooting, next the various tactics

in coming into a fight and last of all flying ability itself.

 

Lt. Colonel W. A. "Billy" Bishop, RAF

Probably the leading RAF Ace of WW-I

72 Victories

 

[siipperi]

I haven't had any problems with current poor AI so far. you can outspeed 109 and out turn it with lagg. AI is just stalling around. 

 

But yeah, you should force it to turn fighting where lagg might win, generally speaking there is very little chance to win 109.

[Trident_109]

Nice  .

 

Back in the 2003-2004 Badsight (guy from UBi Zoo forums) underlined gunnery as no.1 priority skill in that game.

I agreed 100%.

Your flying level doesn't have to be stellar at all, you could really be mediocre there with only one thing in mind: get higher than oppo and surprise him if you can.

You don't have to do fancy Immelmans, scissors etc. because if you do, you probably did something wrong in the first place.

 

That sound true today too. Whole purpose of playing this is to have fun and obtain excellent level of gunnery in the process... 'cos one doesn't work without the other.

 

Leave fancy style flying to Red Bull air racers.

All well and good, and I agree, but there is no element of surprise with how the missions are currently set up. It's like two boxers coming out to spar from their own corner.

[DD_fruitbat]

I personally find gunnery in this game very easy.

[Sternjaeger]

I personally find gunnery in this game very easy.

 

haven't tested it yet myself, but looks like the effectiveness of ammunition is a bit on the generous side, it probably still needs some good tweaking, but it looks promising nonetheless!

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I have found the AI seems to struggle if you make it a 2 circle fight - at least the 109 AI does.  I have not found a need to go 2 circle against a LaGG!

[Georgio]

Just went up against two 109's in the Lagg and shot them both down.

I find you have to play the patient game, so fly under them and side-slip when they dive down and just patiently build up your alt until they make a mistake and then shoot them down.

Took me an hour to take them both and each time I saved my ammo until I had a certain kill then unloaded both cannons and mg's.

Both blew apart with one burst.

[WindyCityZeke]

Yes, getting an altitude advantage with the Lagg and then doing a slow circle, either dive on the 109s when they get low on smack or dive early and extend again.  Just shot down 3 109s (my first) and could have had a couple more (at least one more) with better gunnery.  As mentioned in this tread, it is hard to aim the Lagg without trim.  Gotta keep your energy up with a Lagg tough, if you get slow, it's like flying a cement truck (not that I've actually flown a cement truck and would know).

 

I love how different these two planes feel!

[Bando]

I found that my biggest problem is to keep the enemy in sight.

When I toggled the Icon thingy, it became a lot more simple to shoot the 109 down with the Lagg.

Switching it off again, and I lost sight of the EA.

Losing sight = losing fight = true.

They are hard to spot without the icons switched on.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I found that my biggest problem is to keep the enemy in sight.

When I toggled the Icon thingy, it became a lot more simple to shoot the 109 down with the Lagg.

Switching it off again, and I lost sight of the EA.

Losing sight = losing fight = true.

They are hard to spot without the icons switched on.

 

I was laughing about that - as often as the canopy gets broken, I am surprised it has all those scratches in it.  They must come that way from the factory.

[TheCheese]

I dunno what kinda flying you'd call this, but I found I didn't really need to use any tactics in particular to get the 109, simply push the LaGG to its limits in the turns

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wymq0Inn0

Edited December 8, 2013 by TheCheese

[Wolger]

I use flaps agressively to force the 109 to turn fight.

 

Definitely it's so much easier to shoot down LaGG in 109.

[II./JG27_Rich]

For what it was made out of the Lagg 3 was a good aeroplane. The 109 F 4 was one of the best fighters in WWII in it's time period and maybe the best. So the Red Air Force is up against a heck of an enemy. Better aeroplanes will come though.

Edited December 8, 2013 by II./JG27_Rich

[Fifi]

I use flaps agressively to force the 109 to turn fight.

 

  109 is not stalling at all here in turn fight vs the AI Lagg!

Just keep above 300 Km/h and be easy on stick, you can follow the Lagg everywhere staying in his 6...without flaps at all!

It remains so easy...i'm wondering...

[dkoor]

 

Hehe what do you know, actual WW2 aces underlined it as well...

 

Not trying to be a smartarse, of course hundreds of our virtual deaths taught us the harsh lesson...

Those guys had to learn this IRL which makes things incomparably harder.

[6S.Manu]

Hehe what do you know, actual WW2 aces underlined it as well...

 

Not trying to be a smartarse, of course hundreds of our virtual deaths taught us the harsh lesson...

Those guys had to learn this IRL which makes things incomparably harder.

 

You know, I worked hard to improve my handling skill, until I was a really good 1v1 pilot, but then I learned how the real combat is and so I totally suck in flying skill more than before.

Fighting as snipers is safer than being assault soldiers.

 

[Volkoff]

"How to fly the LAGG against the 109?"

 

Eastwards, full-throttled and on the deck. 

 

+1 

 

Bando,

 

Yes, We are all going to get shot down, now and again and again, using the LaGG-3 against the BF-109 F-4. Use the LaGG-3 as a bomber interceptor and avoid the BF-109 at all costs, but if you want to stand around and fight a BF-109, and stand a fair chance against BF-109s, you want to start your BF-109 hunt with something more like this:

 

 

The Yak-1 Series 69 will be able to escort the LaGG-3 Series 29 and hopefully bring about a near one to one kill to death rate, Yak-1 vs BF-109, in the process.

 

MJ

Edited December 8, 2013 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA