Game version 2.008 discussion: He 111 H-16, Fw 190 A-5, La-5 with M-82F

[Blitzen]

Well I will definitely try again.It is a fun ,involving mission as are all the others I have had the opportunity to try.Many thanks for your contributions!

( I only wish you could have designed a BIG Stuka mission for the Moscow series.I know we don't have the proper Stuka for the time period-that would probably be the Berta only available over at CloD....but with a little imagination it would be great to have the Doras operating over the Moscow map.Maybe you might consider designing a one-off ?)

A brief end-note: I did indeed try this mission again & as Juri said it would it did all work.Apparently the first time I flew I failed to notice that the railway bridge was a double span & of course you have to hit the  correct section the train will run across in order to see the train fall into the water.On the second Try I did hit the correct span & woosh off went the train...!!!

[Scojo]

I found a cool video clip of a MG151/20 round.

 

 

This gives a good impression of the destructiveness of such guns with big calibers.

And now extrapolate this to 6x20mm for the FW190A5, which means 70-80 rounds per second.

No it doesn't. I've seen fireworks put out that much pop and they don't do any damage to thin sheets of tin

multiple shots going through the aircraft metal would do more damage than the explosions those are putting out

The explosions there would only really be put to good use happening close to or in sensitive parts of the aircraft, such as the engine, fuel tank, or control surfaces. And right now, if you peg a control surface with an HE round, it's immediately gone or the rods jam. I had several sorties the other day where the first few bullets that hit me jammed one of my control surfaces or completely destroyed them, so I feel the game has them modeled pretty well.

 

I think people just expect these bullets to do lots of damage no matter where they hit, when they should be paying to attention to where their shots are really hitting

Edited March 6, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[=FEW=Hauggy]

On the He-111 H16 the leaning to gunsight function seems glitched on the dual mg 131 I get an external view and on the sides there is a similar issue.

[ACG_Invictus]

Oh wow....the SLi profile seemed to help!  I'll give it a go ONLINE tonight and see if it helps with the stuttering as well.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

On the He-111 H16 the leaning to gunsight function seems glitched on the dual mg 131 I get an external view and on the sides there is a similar issue.

 

I haven't made extensive testings, but from memory whenever you try to get into the ventral gondola when the plane is on the ground (and this is also the case with the H6) you end up with an external view of the plane. Everything is back to normal in the air normally.

[ICDP]

No it doesn't. I've seen fireworks put out that much pop and they don't do any damage to thin sheets of tin

multiple shots going through the aircraft metal would do more damage than the explosions those are putting out

The explosions there would only really be put to good use happening close to or in sensitive parts of the aircraft, such as the engine, fuel tank, or control surfaces. And right now, if you peg a control surface with an HE round, it's immediately gone or the rods jam. I had several sorties the other day where the first few bullets that hit me jammed one of my control surfaces or completely destroyed them, so I feel the game has them modeled pretty well.

 

I think people just expect these bullets to do lots of damage no matter where they hit, when they should be paying to attention to where their shots are really hitting

 

Typically HE shells had delayed fuses which meant they would use their kinetic energy to penetrate the light metal/wooden or canvas skin and detonate inside.  A HE cannon shell first penetrates the skin and explodes inside the aircraft.  One or two HE cannon shells penetrating the thin skin of a wing and exploding inside a small compartmentalised area has a devastating effect.

 

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by ICDP

[Irgendjemand]

Typically HE shells had delayed fuses which meant they would use their kinetic energy to penetrate the light metal/wooden or canvas skin and detonate inside.  A HE cannon shell first penetrates the skin and explodes inside the aircraft.  One or two HE cannon shells penetrating the thin skin of a wing and exploding inside a small compartmentalised area has a devastating effect.

 

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

So much for that

Thats just my opinion. But planes that just keep flying as if nothing happened after a hit from a 20mm is just plain unrealistic.

[Original_Uwe]

No it happened. Fabric covered hurricanes in the Battle of Britain had 20mm shells pass right through without detonation.

Furthermore you cant be sure nothing happened. You don't know what all the enemy pilot is going through in his cockpit after you land a seemingly ineffective strike.

Whats more Ive pretty much given up counting my shots online. I cant tell you how many times Ive dumped a fusillade of 20mm from my A-3 into a yak/LA/Lagg/Mig etc. only to have the aircraft jump just to the left or right of my gunsite because of the poor communication between players and server. Realllly pisses me off when I land a certain killing blow only to have the E.A. jump 90 degrees to the right by 10 feet right out of my Revi.

[Scojo]

All I was saying is just watch where your rounds hit. A shell in the main wing area or main fuselage won't do much. You'll need many rounds in those places to produce a catastrophic effect. However, as someone who gets shot a lot, those few shots in those areas do cause many problems. I may escape a fight looking like I took no damage, but I did because I have to RTB and I usually have difficulty landing.

 

Also, when those rounds do hit something critical, like wing roots, engines or compartments such as cockpit, they do a lot of really good damage. All of my flights this weekend on WoL where I was engaged by a 109 resulted in my Pe-2 on fire after just a few short hits. Another time a good burst completely removed my wing. I also had a flight where a passing fighter from my 9 o'clock pegged my cockpit and I was killed. All of these engagements were at little round expense to the LW pilot. 

 

Whenever I get hit and still make it home, it's because the rounds didn't hit anything critical. Also, on the Pe-2 and Sturmovik, it's very common to have to ditch before getting home due to coolant leaks. Those will kill your engine no matter how low you drop your engine settings afterward.

 

You may be right in saying the damage model isn't right. However I'm a firm believer that the damage model is well modeled enough that it's not a big deal at all.

 

One thing I will say isn't modeled at all that I think should be, is direct propeller damage. Bullets passing through propellers should have a chance to directly strike the prop, no? And it just never seems to happen.

[Blitzen]

(A rather late thank- you for the new tank mission & its variations included in the update! I just discovered them. )

[von-Luck]

No it doesn't. I've seen fireworks put out that much pop and they don't do any damage to thin sheets of tin

multiple shots going through the aircraft metal would do more damage than the explosions those are putting out

The explosions there would only really be put to good use happening close to or in sensitive parts of the aircraft, such as the engine, fuel tank, or control surfaces. And right now, if you peg a control surface with an HE round, it's immediately gone or the rods jam. I had several sorties the other day where the first few bullets that hit me jammed one of my control surfaces or completely destroyed them, so I feel the game has them modeled pretty well.

 

I think people just expect these bullets to do lots of damage no matter where they hit, when they should be paying to attention to where their shots are really hitting

 

First - the explosive has likely lost much of it's chemical energy over time.  Next the long burn time has diminished the total explosive power of this round due to a none standard ignition.  Badmouthing a 70 year old 20mm Mine round because it was thrown in a fire and didn't accomplish much seems awfully silly to me.  shot placement always counts however the 20mm Mine round was remarkably destructive and, very likely, the best 20mm round of it's time.  

 

von Luck