VR yet?

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I got the Vive before OR dropped the price. And the only reason I got it was to me it looked more comfortable than the OR to wear for a long flight, that and it came with the controllers and all. The Vive has this Sponge pad around it and after a hour or so its gets sweaty and hot. No air flow until you lift them up. That's fine I have to lift them to take a sip of beer anyway!  Just the other day I set up Track IR again and went back to 2d just to see. While it was ok ,right after my flight I put my HMD right back on! 

[von-Luck]

Air ingress on OR is around the nose which is open.  I have worn it for multiple hours without much discomfort.  

 

von Luck

[ShoeHash]

When you first put on the Rift you'll likely set it to tight. I took off my glasses and plastered myself as close to the lens as possible. Not a good idea. I thought I was having an allergic reaction to the rubber when I took it off. My Rift zone was red lined and swollen.

Next, I put it on with my glasses on with a loose/medium loose tightness and I've been able to game for 3 hours before I have to grab a beer, peace a flower, or light a cig.

A complaint I have against the rift is that it covers my habit hole. But honestly I would have bought a Vive had I that much disposable income. It is only now I realize the rift has some excellent games and software, and both rift and vive suffer from being the first of their kind. I'm happy with the Oculus Rift for now. In 2 years, who knows?

Lots of myths about VR. I'll dispel a few here.

1. VR needs a computer that can run 4k at 90 fps. FALSE: Minimum requirements for VR are easily met. If you want top notch graphical quality, it'll still only require 2k res at 60fps.
2. The Vive/Rift is clearer. FALSE: Completely subjective. The Lenses the Rift uses are up for debate. They may change physical attributes of their lens mathematics. However, subjectively, the Rift wins on clarity.
3. If you have a Vive you can put an image of your child on a baby cam and have that transmitted to your headset so you can game and watch your baby at the same time. TRUE: Here's how https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5d3auz/how_i_watch_my_baby_while_i_play_elite_in_vr/

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Some of they guys I fly with say that OR has more of a screen door effect than the Vive if you go past a certain setting. I can run at 1.7 to 1.9 in DCS without vomit inducing lag. In BOX I have it at default I guess, and it works just fine. I have yet to see any lag or stutters. If I play on ultra or low, in VR that doesn't seem to matter. It all looks the same. I can read the gauges with any setting.

[Quax]

FOV will be a bit of an issue in this more knife fight orientated arena and it might be an idea to try adding 1 or 2 degrees for every 10 degrees of head movement, TrackIR style, to help improve checking six. 

 

 

 

Impossible. You would vomit all over the place in less than a minute.

[ShoeHash]

Some of they guys I fly with say that OR has more of a screen door effect than the Vive if you go past a certain setting. I can run at 1.7 to 1.9 in DCS without vomit inducing lag. In BOX I have it at default I guess, and it works just fine. I have yet to see any lag or stutters. If I play on ultra or low, in VR that doesn't seem to matter. It all looks the same. I can read the gauges with any setting.

You might know this, but others may not. That setting that says Pixel Density and goes from 1.0 to 2.0 is a little bit of a liar. But it's also future proofing. As I understand if you can't go past a certain resolution you can pack more pixels onto these displays. This has varied results for people. It makes the game sharper and clearer, sure, but since you're essentially bumping up from 2k to 4k it may not be necessary, and your HDMI cable may literally have trouble with the size of the signal. When true 4k headsets come out, they'll use this feature to make old games playable again.

 

EDIT: Full VR Support Confirmed Alpha.

 

"VR support turns out to be tricky not because it is complex by itself, but because this technology and API are still relatively immature - there are no beaten paths and in some parts we were moving forward almost blindly. A large chunk of time was spent on finding new ways to optimize performance to make VR experience more fluid, many improvements were made in this field. Another big task we needed to complete was adapting the user interface for VR to make it usable. For a while, we were a bit puzzled how to make optical sights (like Pe-2 lower UBT MG gunsight or tank gunner sight) function in VR realistically, and we decided to show the gunsight only for one eye while another eye should be closed (like in real life). In our opinion, Oculus Rift cv1 has slightly better lenses and more effective usage of the display matrix (pixels in front of you are placed a bit tighter, but overall field of view is narrower). On the other hand, HTC Vive has more advanced tracking tech, slightly wider FOV which feels less like looking through binoculars, much larger possible play area (not like it is useful for a flight sim though) but its lenses have visible peripheral moire effect. In short, both devices have their pros and cons and if you plan to buy one, it would be ideal to demo them both to find out which one suits you better (but be mindful of a possibility of wearing a VR unit in a public place after someone else who may have had red-eye for instance). All in all, we like how VR works in our sim, it's on par or even better than in other sims." - IL2 BOS Team.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ShoeKush

[HagarTheHorrible]

Impossible. You would vomit all over the place in less than a minute.

.......and you know that because ?

 

The same might have been, and was, said about TrackIR when it first appeared. I'm not saying it would work, I just don't know, but adding a couple of extra, almost imperceptible degrees ( would you know if your viiew had changed 12 deg rather than ten ?) might be worth a try by the developers to overcome a limitation of VR. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work but at least an attempt was made to improve the situation rather than just idle speculation.

 

 

I've just picked up CAP2, while still rough around the edges, maybe the middle bit as well, I like how they've integrated VR with 2D screens for everything outside of actually flying, it just works very well.

Edited March 15, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[Gunsmith86]

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You might know this, but others may not. That setting that says Pixel Density and goes from 1.0 to 2.0 is a little bit of a liar. But it's also future proofing. As I understand if you can't go past a certain resolution you can pack more pixels onto these displays. This has varied results for people. It makes the game sharper and clearer, sure, but since you're essentially bumping up from 2k to 4k it may not be necessary, and your HDMI cable may literally have trouble with the size of the signal. When true 4k headsets come out, they'll use this feature to make old games playable

You are get it all wrong. You can't pack more pixels, this pixels density options is similar approach to produce better visual experience like supersampling or DSR do. It helps making image sharper but not by packing more pixels into display but choosing better ones which in results enhance overall image quality. Also it has nothing to do with making " signals size larger ". Edited March 15, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Look at this

http://www.starvr.com

And this - Entrim4D

 

https://www.google.pl/amp/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/3/14/11220836/samsung-etrim-4d-headphones-movement-vr-inner-ear

 

https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-to-unveil-hum-on-waffle-and-entrim-4d-experimental-c-lab-projects-at-sxsw-2016

Edited March 15, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Quax]

.......and you know that because ?

 

The same might have been, and was, said about TrackIR when it first appeared. I'm not saying it would work, I just don't know, but adding a couple of extra, almost imperceptible degrees ( would you know if your viiew had changed 12 deg rather than ten ?) might be worth a try by the developers to overcome a limitation of VR. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work but at least an attempt was made to improve the situation rather than just idle speculation.

 

 

I've just picked up CAP2, while still rough around the edges, maybe the middle bit as well, I like how they've integrated VR with 2D screens for everything outside of actually flying, it just works very well.

 

You are mixing up things. Sitting in front of a monitor (using TrackIR) your brain is still aware of sitting in your chair. You might get dissy, but you can´t get motion sickness.

With VR on your head, you fool your brain, and that´s exactly what´s the idea of it ! If now the head movement (signals of your inner ear) don´t match the signals from your eyes, you

get immidiate motion sickness. There will never be some mismatch of tracking position and view. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Quax

[dburne]

You are get it all wrong. You can't pack more pixels, this pixels density options is similar approach to produce better visual experience like supersampling or DSR do. It helps making image sharper but not by packing more pixels into display but choosing better ones which in results enhance overall image quality. Also it has nothing to do with making " signals size larger ".

 

PD is indeed basically super sampling.

I myself have found PD setting above 1.5 to have very diminishing returns. No noticeable difference (to me) versus the performance penalty.

[von-Luck]

1.5 is the sweet spot. In WT this allows me to more easily read gauges and improves my plane ID. I found in War Thunder accurate aircraft ID was made more difficult by the lower resolution requiring me to close to target for good PID.

 

von Luck

[von-Luck]

60 FPS no thank you. I fully expect an upgrade in resolution to VR however this upgrade comes with greater GPU demands. Like 4K gaming high resolution VR in gorgeous games will be exceptionally demanding and will require a flagship GPU.

 

von Luck

[ShoeHash]

You are get it all wrong. You can't pack more pixels, this pixels density options is similar approach to produce better visual experience like supersampling or DSR do. It helps making image sharper but not by packing more pixels into display but choosing better ones which in results enhance overall image quality. Also it has nothing to do with making " signals size larger ".

I wasn't aware exactly how it worked. Thanks for the explanation. Star VR sounds cool too, but I worry when they say "location based" and not "for home use". Do you know anything about why we're moving to HDMI 2.0 for the next consumer grade eyepieces?

[Jason_Williams]

I ordered one. Initial feedback on VR tests are pretty positive so if resolution can be increased that only helps.

 

Jason

[Jason_Williams]

I'm being told that the PiMax is just 3DOF tracking, not 6DOF.

 

Jason

[Lusekofte]

I really would like to fly vr once in DCS choppers, they say its improve a great deal expirience. In this game a normal stick and throttle will make it effordless to fly vr. It is a WIN WIN situation. Increased customerbase and more populated servers

[15[Span.]/JG51Costa]

I'm being told that the PiMax is just 3DOF tracking, not 6DOF.

 

Jason

Hi Jason.

If I remember well. You can use it together with TrakIr.

Saludos

15(Span.)/JG51Costa

[Lusekofte]

Well that would not be the same, would it? OR works with 1 to 1 movement witch mean you have to turn all the way back to look back. TrackIr loose connection damn fast when turning. But you got separate tracking devices used with vr

[kissklas]

Yeah, 180 degrees would be an issue for the positional tracking with a classic 3 point constellation. Maybe it would work if you somehow had it on top of your head and had the camera pointing down on you:-p

[TheSNAFU]

I'm being told that the PiMax is just 3DOF tracking, not 6DOF

 

Jason

That would be unfortunate. From what I've read this unit addresses the biggest reason I wouldn't go to vr, the low res graphics of OR and HTS. It's apparently not true 4K but it's 2k at 60 fps which would be totally fine with me. I lock The game at 60 fps anyway and love the solid silky smoothness.

Edited March 16, 2017 by TheSNAFU

[bzc3lk]

Well that would not be the same, would it? OR works with 1 to 1 movement witch mean you have to turn all the way back to look back. TrackIr loose connection damn fast when turning. But you got separate tracking devices used with vr

You could use only the Z axis for mild zoom with your TrackIr while still using your PiMax VR  X and Y axis for 1 to 1 movement. For spotting distant aircraft i would still us the in game "binocular" zoom option.

Edited March 16, 2017 by bzc3lk

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I really would like to fly vr once in DCS choppers, they say its improve a great deal expirience. In this game a normal stick and throttle will make it effordless to fly vr. It is a WIN WIN situation. Increased customerbase and more populated servers

VR made the choppers in DCS just awesome. I had a hard time landing or judging how high I was in a low hover. VR helped a lot with flying them. I can almost fly one like a semi professional!

I'm being told that the PiMax is just 3DOF tracking, not 6DOF.

 

Jason

Well that sucks. But if the resolution is higher maybe worth a look..... Maybe 2 gen will be 6DOF. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Blackwolf

[BeastyBaiter]

The PiMax looked damned appealing to me until I saw the not 6DoF part. The ability to lean into the gunsight and look around framing is critical. Real shame too as the price is much more enticing than either OR or Vive.

[Gunsmith86]

if it is possible to use Trackir and Pimax at the same time than you could make a simple work around were Trackir is used for the missing axis. All we would need is a round object above your head that reflects so Trackir always knows were your body is

[Irgendjemand]

I'm being told that the PiMax is just 3DOF tracking, not 6DOF.

 

Jason

 

Thats the gamebreaker for me. Considered getting one for tests too. But 6DOF is a must have. To prevent Nausea and for immersion.

[Irgendjemand]

if it is possible to use Trackir and Pimax at the same time than you could make a simple work around were Trackir is used for the missing axis. All we would need is a round object above your head that reflects so Trackir always knows were your body is

Problems would be that i think you would have to use a custom software to process the needed signals from 2 diffrent devices.

The second problem would be no positional tracking when looking behind due to obstructed LEDs. A problem the DK2 suffered from.

[Freycinet]

I only had the OR devkit 1 and have been holding off on my VR consumer version purchase until I get a better rig. I have a question for those who have been simming for a while with VR glasses:

 

I am reading that spotting planes at a distance works quite well, due to the coarse resolution and dots being bigger, but that identification of bogeys is a problem. Now my question is; can that issue be dealt with if you use a quick zoom in/zoom out? I.e. you see a distant bogey as a dot and then you quickly zoom in to i.d. him before you zoom out again.

 

 

Thats the gamebreaker for me. Considered getting one for tests too. But 6DOF is a must have. To prevent Nausea and for immersion.

Watch the video review, it goes into the 3dof and nausea questions. Edited March 16, 2017 by Freycinet

[dburne]

I am reading that spotting planes at a distance works quite well, due to the coarse resolution and dots being bigger, but that identification of bogeys is a problem. Now my question is; can that issue be dealt with if you use a quick zoom in/zoom out? I.e. you see a distant bogey as a dot and then you quickly zoom in to i.d. him before you zoom out again.

 

 

 

I have spent a fair amount of time in the Spit in DCS in the dogfight missions, and can't say I have really had a big problem. But currently only doing single player with labels, so I am sure it would be more of a problem if not.

 

The way they implemented VR Zoom works fairly well, I have it programmed to both a two way switch and a button press. Button press and hold zooms in, release zooms out. Two way switch gives me either on or off for zoom for when I want it zoomed in fixed for an amount of time. And it does help.

 

I can only compare what I see in Single Player VR to what I used to see in Single Player on my 2d monitor ( 1080p). For me, I find it easier to see the targets - of course especially when they are up closer to me. I feel like I am having better luck at dogfighting especially up close in WWII type scenarios, as I can just see the planes so much easier. On my 2d monitor I always had to wear reading glasses and still a little tough for me to see, in the Rift no need for reading glasses for me.

 

While I have only done single player for many years, heck I may even delve into MP when VR support does come to BoX.

[Irgendjemand]

Cant really talk about DCS VR. Havent used it in a while.
But if they added a VR zoom that would solve many problems. Back when I tried it, identification definately was a problem. The first solution that came to my mind was some sort of zooming in VR as well.

@Jason: Do you plan on implementing some sort of VR zoom as well?

 

Thanks

Edited March 16, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[JG27*Kornezov]

I am playing using 3D on battle of Stalingrad. The whole VR technology is based on  bad science.

I just send you a link if you think I selling you bool shit.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/14/tech/innovation/3d-one-eye/

 

Here it is another link from BBC this time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-24525501

 

The 3-D technology that's currently used in movies and VR requires two visual images, one from each eye, combining in the viewer's brain to produce 3-D's extra layer of depth. Actually believe it or not for 3D experience you do not need two images. The scientist who first discovered it is named Dr Vishwanath.

 

The problem with Vishwanath discovery is that you can have 3 D experience but you need to use only one eye. And that is cool, maybe fun but not practical for playing games or watching some videos on youtube.

So I found a way to have 3D experience using both eyes with a mind trick. The idea is to trick the mind that a flat image from a flat screen is actually a window. However a friend of mine who experienced that for the first time got scared.

The reason is that you use your brain to create depth, and once experienced you like it. And when you like it you just keep those new brain settings. I mean whenever you see a flat image with sufficient depth information your brain interprets that information as 3D image. That does not mean that you fake 3D, you only see if there is enough information as depth perspective; shadows etc. Those are just brain settings and they are reversible. Now I consider VR a skill not just a technology. I made  at home a device that costed me 1 EUR to trigger the switch from 2d to 3d at will. Probably you have those materials at home.

 

The advantage is that you do not have motion sickness. Nevertheless some persons reported mild head ache when experiencing it for the first time.

 

The visual appearance is that the screen is not a screen but a window and you perceive the 3D world through that window. You do not get images popping up from the screen. The image nevertheless is as possible as you get  representation of the world as your brain is creating the image.

 

 I spent 4 months testinng this on il2 BOS, playing quite often. I did not observe any adverse effects. I tested it even on my grandmother, we were looking sky divers on youtube.

 

Regarding the gameplay. My brain is extracting more information from the screen. Not only i see planes move but i perceive their position in space and I can predict their trajectories and react. The best benefit is in knife type scissor fight. Actually my perception is that I play a different game as the quality of the perceived picture improves.
 

The post is getting quite long and  I cannot spend more time explaining unless that subject interests anyone. Put it simple it is free 3D.

Edited March 16, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[dburne]

Cant really talk about DCS VR. Havent used it in a while.

But if they added a VR zoom that would solve many problems. Back when I tried it, identification definately was a problem. The first solution that came to my mind was some sort of zooming in VR as well.

@Jason: Do you plan on implementing some sort of VR zoom as well?

 

Thanks

 

Well I am somewhat hesitant as this is a competing product forum, so hope it is ok...

 

Yes I find the VR zoom works fairly well. As I previously mentioned you can press and hold a button to zoom then release to go back to normal view, and/or assign to a two way switch where it toggles zoom on and off. As well they have a re-center VR view that can be assigned also which is handy especially if one's seated  position changes a little from the last session. I have both assigned to buttons on my Warthog.

 

In addition they added a mouse function in VR, where one can assign it then to a button, then by pressing a button you get the crosshairs, then look at the instrument you want to flip and press an assigned button on stick or throttle to flip it. Works fairly well and saves having to reach for the actual mouse. 

[LonnyEnds]

Hey all I actually picked up a used Pimax this week and so far have been pretty happy with it. It all comes down to realistic expectations with VR. I have a GTX970 and really want to upgrade to 1070+ as supersampling seems to be king for image clarity on Sims. I can confirm that the Pimax 4k is only head tracking which is less than ideal but still works (especially if you haven't tried TrackIR.

 

That being said I do plan to eventually setup the TrackIR with this to see if it works/introduces motion sickness when head movement is accelerated. (Will change person to person as I have experienced none even at lower FPS)

 

Now the million $ question for the devs/Jason is: Will we need the Steam version to play VR or will standalone work?

[TheSNAFU]

How does the 970 run the games your playing with Pimax? I have the FTW version and was thinking it may not be enough to run games at least at a solid 60fps with Primax vr. Also how is the image quality? Thanks for any info you can offer.

Edited March 17, 2017 by TheSNAFU

[LLv24_Zami]

Hey all I actually picked up a used Pimax this week and so far have been pretty happy with it. It all comes down to realistic expectations with VR. I have a

GTX970 and really want to upgrade to 1070+ as supersampling seems to be king for image clarity on Sims. I can confirm that the Pimax 4k is only head tracking which

is less than ideal but still works

(especially if you haven't tried TrackIR.

 

That being said I do plan to eventually setup the TrackIR with this to see if it

works/introduces motion sickness when head

movement is accelerated. (Will change person to person as I have experienced none even at lower FPS)

 

Now the million $ question for the

devs/Jason is: Will we need the Steam version to play VR or will standalone work?

How is the image?

Especially resolution, that is the biggest draw back of Rift.

[LonnyEnds]

I can't comment on the resolution of the Pimax vs other headsets as I haven't tried them yet. But I have only had a couple instances where SDE was noticeable but I wouldn't say that it took me out of the immersion. The first time I fired up Project Cars I was disappointed in how blurry/lack of depth of field it was. Once I started to play with supersampling there was a very noticeable difference in clarity.

 

I would suggest anyone considering the Pimax to read through their forums. What I gathered was:

 

It is not a true 4k @60hz unit as it it HDMI 1.4 aka doesn't have the bandwidth. (Although you would need a very powerful rig to get that let alone if it was 90hz)

 

In extended desktop mode it recognizes as 2560x1440 which is still higher than others.

 

For a "cheap" Chinese headset it seems to be of decent quality and it seems like overall the company is trying to improve their software/features and listening to the community. Who knows how far this will go. I would love to eventually see some sort of mod to support HDMI 2 but probably won't happen.

 

The biggest immersion killer is when my computer FPS is lower I will get some ghosting and then what looks like screen tearing when moving head. It is all a balancing act of computer vs settings and what you can live with.

 

I ended up paying $300 CAD which is the main reason I am happy with it. At full retail I could see how some would be disappointed. Once again all about reasonable expectations which going through Pimax forums should give.

 

Each headset has it's pros and cons, I do not get motion sickness in the most extreme cases and can live in VR happy at 60fps. (I will update later once I establish the "comfort" fps for me) I jumped on this because it should do me fine until CV2 or other headsets come out and there is more supporting hardware. The prospect of SLI VR could be a game changer for this headset.