tank damage

[Finkeren]

Also, there are quite a few pictures of flipped tanks from WW2, even on level ground. If not from bombs, what would have caused it?:

I'm not saying it couldn't ever happen, but it would most likely require a powerful explosion practically underneath the tank.

 

I've studied quite a few images of flipped over tanks from WW2, and nearly all of them fall into one of two categories:

 

1. The tank is lying in a hole or ditch, meaning it most likely tipped over by accident (tanks are fairly top-heavy compared to cars)

 

2. The tank is lying flipped on its head right next to a road. In this case we are often talking about a tank that was blocking a road - either left intentionally as a roadblock (in which case you'll often see that it has had its tracks removed to make it extra difficult to move out of the way) or simply broken down during a retreat and left there. The enemy would then have to quickly get it out of the way to open the road, and since an imobilized tank with its tracks dug into the ground is pretty damn hard to push, it was often easier to simply tumble it to the side and onto its back - again, tanks being top-heavy actually makes this fairly easy, using 1-2 other tanks and a couple strong steel cables - or a simple bulldozer.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Finkeren

[Scojo]

That all makes sense to me.

 

I think most of the time people really want Hollywood explosions to be real, but real explosions aren't nearly exciting or forceful.

 

For example, Hollywood hand grenades always look like giant fireballs, but the real thing is quite a let down visually and the stuff that actually kills is the shrapnel, not the pressure

[Gunsmith86]

I know one picture of a tiger 1 which was turned over by a heavy bomb. At least the crew in the turet was killed because they hit the steel inside and broke their neck

Edited March 3, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[Scojo]

I know one picture of a tiger 1 which was turned over by a heavy bomb. At least the crew in the turet was killed because they hit the steel inside and broke their neck

As said Shadow, but the people are demanding sources

[Gambit21]

Especially regarding "broke in half" I quoted the wrong person on that earlier (damn tiny phone screen)

[Finkeren]

There's a good deal of difference between a Tiger being tipped over by a close-proximity blast from a heavy bomb and a Tiger being ripped in two or "flipped over two or three times".

 

I can believe the first, but the others I'd definately need hard evidence to buy.

[Gambit21]

Yep

[Y-29.Silky]

Tanks and other AFVs are used to this day because they work. Especially tanks are tough as nails, when it comes to surviving nearby explosions. If a large bomb goes off, pretty much the safest place you can be is inside a tank.

 

I think the sim portrays this very well. Tanks should be one of the toughest targets to destroy: They are small, they are mobile and they pretty much require a direct hit to take out.

Ask the crew of this tank, knocked out by Allied bombing..

 

 

I read stories where even strafing the tank would give the crew a concussion. Though it's better than having your body ripped to pieces, the tank is still disabled.

[Gambit21]

That's fairly typical,

 

Still waiting for the 1 in ten thousand cracked in half Tiger.

[Gunsmith86]

The Tiger above is Tiger I of sPzAbt 3/503 18.7.1944

Crew: Ofw. Sachs tank was complitly turned over by bombs, two man have been killed

 

 

 

 

one more Jagdpanther destroyed by air attack near Altenkirchen

[Gambit21]

I read stories where even strafing the tank would give the crew a concussion. Though it's better than having your body ripped to pieces, the tank is still disabled.

I'd put that in the possible but extremely rare category as well, especially where a Tiger is concerned. Even taking a direct hit from a Sherman, which is orders of magnitude more energy - it generally just made a loud noise and the crew kept on. That's again a Tiger crew. Other tanks I have no idea in this regard.

[Finkeren]

I read stories where even strafing the tank would give the crew a concussion. Though it's better than having your body ripped to pieces, the tank is still disabled.

During strafing, the rounds are hitting the tank directly. Direct hits transfer the shockwaves to the crew much more efficiently.

 

Tanks are far more vulnerable to even the smallest bomb hitting it directly than it is to even very large bombs hitting just a few metres away.

The Tiger above is Tiger I of sPzAbt 3/503 18.7.1944

Crew: Ofw. Sachs tank was complitly turned over by bombs, two man have been killed

 

 

 

 

one more Jagdpanther destroyed by air attack near Altenkirchen

 

Notice, that the Tiger is lying in a crater - most likely from the very bomb that flipped it over. We are talking a very close proximity hit, within 1-2m. I can totally believe that.

 

What I can't believe is the claim made about how a 1000lb bomb going off 30m away will tumble an M1 Abrams around like a toy.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Finkeren

[Scojo]

Once again, people post pictures and give a nice story about how it was flipped over by a bomb but nothing there that actually gives credit to that statment....

 

Especially the one by the road, it could be what Ghost and Finkeren said which is tanks being flipped off the road or out of the way rather than being dragged.

 

Also no one's mentioning anything about likely bomb weights or proximity to the tank.

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

I once dropped 250kg bomb maybe ~10 meters away from a tank in multiplayer and destroyed it. I once tried also with stukas 37mm cannons do destroy T-34's attacking from a side but i didnt destroy any...for me it seems its bit harder to destroy tanks in MP, dunno if i've had just bad luck. In SP its pretty easy to destroy tanks with 37mm cannons.

[Scojo]

I once dropped 250kg bomb maybe ~10 meters away from a tank in multiplayer and destroyed it. I once tried also with stukas 37mm cannons do destroy T-34's attacking from a side but i didnt destroy any...for me it seems its bit harder to destroy tanks in MP, dunno if i've had just bad luck. In SP its pretty easy to destroy tanks with 37mm cannons.

I frequently drop 250kg bombs close enough that the crater is touching the tank but the tank doesn't get destroyed. that's easily within 10m. Do you make it a point to put the bomb behind the tank?

[Bent]

The t34 are close to impossible to destoy with the german tank gun in the panzer 4. The t34 can be hit 10-15 times and nothing happens. The other way round a single hit from the t34 is enough to kill the german. - It is an uneven match. In real life the germans had the advantage of an effective communication system, but it is not the situation in the game. The t34 also had very bad accomodation and visual problems for the crew, but apparently that is not a big problem in the game either. The t34 also had technical break downs but that is not a problem in the game either. - I think the german side in the game should have a Panther to even.

 

 

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2015/03/20/tank-clash-the-german-panther-vs-the-soviet-t-34-85/

 

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.dk/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

Edited March 5, 2017 by Bent

[Finkeren]

I think the german side in the game should have a Panther to even.

 

No. Horrible idea.

 

Introducing aircraft or vehicles into an un-historic setting purely for balance is a bad idea. Period.

 

Also: Having a Panther would not so much even things out as it would give the German side a ridiculously huge advantage.

 

If anything introducing the Pzkw IV F would be the way to go. It would balance nicely with the T-34 and be relevant for most 42-43 battles.

[hames123]

Yeah, that was during the breakout from Caen I think.

 

Sure, get a few hundred heavy bombers in the air and have them drop their heaviest ordinance on top of a large group of tanks, and I won't be surprised if a couple of them get flipped over.

 

The very fact that it was mentioned that the tanks were flipped over should be an indication of just how rarean occurance it was.

 

What I'm objecting to is the idea, that a single one ton bomb will flip an M1 Abrams at 30m, that will never, ever happen and the tank is pretty much guaranteed to be perfectly fine afterwards.

 

No tigers faced the Americans in Normandy, this famous "tigers upside down" thing occured during the British attack during operation Goodwood, towards Caen. This action drew off all the German heavy armoured units, allowing to Americans to gain ground. When the Germans realised what happened, they rushed troops South and stopped the US advance, but by then their position was bad, and the failed attack on Mortain(over 200 German AFVs destroyed by over 1000 Typhoons) finished the German army in Normandy.

 

The Germans should get the Panther for BOK,in fact, they could be some pretty amazing battles with it(imagine 50 Panthers attacking a line of Soviet AT guns, with a tank spawn for players to spawn at. The entire mission could revolve around a single objective, meaninf that there would be less people flying around randomly and more over the battlefield. It would be great for the Russians, with Il2s attacking the tanks, and great for the Germans, with FW190s chasing the Il2s all over the battlefield). Almost every German tank had to fear the allied tanks, as most were Mark 4s, and the winner would be whoever hit first. Even Tigers had to watch out, as the death of Micheal Wittman showed(4 Tigers, including that of the famous tank ace, all destroyed in less than a minute by Shermans and Sherman Fireflys).

Edited March 6, 2017 by hames123

[LukeFF]

When the Germans realised what happened, they rushed troops South and stopped the US advance, but by then their position was bad, and the failed attack on Mortain(over 200 German AFVs destroyed by over 1000 Typhoons) finished the German army in Normandy.

 

That has been shown to be patently false:

 

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/09/21/air-power-at-the-battlefront/

 

The claims made by the Allied fighter-bomber pilots for the period 7 – 10 August are impressive, and are shown below:

 

 

Yet these claims are misleading and cannot be substantiated. During 12 – 20 August the Mortain battle area was examined by two separate British ORS teams; No. 2 ORS and ORS 2nd TAF. No German vehicles were missed by the investigation as the areas was not extensive; moreover the area was examined from an observation aircraft at low level with no further vehicles discovered. The destruction attributed to various weapons can be tabulated as shown in the following table, which is a compilation of both the RAF and Army reports:

 

 

This shows that a total of only 46 German tanks and self-propelled guns were actually found in the battle area, and of these only nine were considered to have been destroyed by air weapons.

 

It was not possible to discriminate between victims of British and American aircraft as the latter had also fired some 600 rockets. Many of the ‘unknown causes’ were found some distance from any sign of air attack – such as cannon and machine gun strikes on the ground and rocket or bomb craters – and could not be considered as possible air victims. An obvious question is whether the Germans had been able to recover any of their tanks. The presence of a German tank recovery vehicle would seem to confirm they had but, while it is likely that some tanks were recovered, this can hardly be an adequate explanation for the discrepancy between air claims and the destruction found. Armoured and motor vehicles destroyed by air weapons were invariably burnt out, and for recovery purposes damaged and abandoned vehicles had priority over such. German prisoners, many of whom were questioned on this subject, consistently stated that burnt out tanks were never salvaged. In effect, a tank hit by a rocket or bomb was not worth recovering and the ORS should have found what was left of it.

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by LukeFF

[StG77_Kondor]

When the Germans realised what happened, they rushed troops South and stopped the US advance, but by then their position was bad, and the failed attack on Mortain(over 200 German AFVs destroyed by over 1000 Typhoons) finished the German army in Normandy.

I know I'm deviating from the topic at hand. But the over '200' number has been proven false with regards to Mortain. The real killing field was the closing of the Falaise pocket in the weeks after. Tank losses in Mortain were under 100 tanks. With the majority of them actually knocked out by ground fire. The over-claiming of allied air power in Normandy was something that allied intelligence realized immediately at the start of the campaign - going through towns and roads captured but not seeing the 'hundreds' of disabled and destroyed tanks that should be there. Majority of the time pilots just missed, or if they scored a hit - that vehicle was previously knocked out/destroyed. The effect on German morale notwithstanding (limiting day time movement, inefficient supply, etc) the actual score sheet for the allied air forces in Normandy didn't match the results seen on the ground - not until Falaise. 

Beat me to it Luke .

[hames123]

Not tanks, AFVs, mainly halftracks and armoured cars, I do know it is exceptionally hard to kill a tank with a stick of unguided rockets. However, while many were not destroyed, most tanks suffered damage that made them mission kills, such a abandonment by crew, immobilisation, and having their gun knocked out.