tank damage

[Reaperr]

Hi to all pilots. i want to ask your'e opinion on tank damage taken, at least on my end seems they are invincible and cannot be destroyed i tray shoot with 37mm canon from German and Russian planes, i'l tray doping bombs within 15 m radius i used bombs 100kg, 250kg, 500kg, 1000kg, 1800kg and 2500kg i did tray to ram them as well and nothing destroyed them. only once i did manage destroy one out of 3 tanks when i doped two bombs together one 2500kg and 1000kg.

[Finkeren]

15m is not close enough to reliably kill a tank with anything but the largest bombs. Below 250kg it pretty much needs a direct hit and up to 1000kg you have to be within 10m to kill the tank.

 

This is perfectly within the limits known from actual tests on real life targets. Even trucks should survive bomb blast from 20-30m.

Take a look at this thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26512-quick-look-bomb-effectiveness-vs-armor/?fromsearch=1

[Finkeren]

If you can't be bothered to read through it all, here is the summary:

 

The 1997 study found (among other things) that a 1000lbs aerial bomb had zero (none what so ever) chance of destroying a tank beyond a range of just 6 meters, and the kill probability against a truck with the same bomb fell to zero at just 15m. Since it's probably safe to assume, that the durability of a WW2 tank lies somewhere between a 1997 tank and a 1997 truck, a 250kg bomb should have zero chance of killing a tank at 10-12m distance and a low probability at 5-10m distance.

 

Larger bombs will of course be lethal at longer distances, but not much longer. Doubling the weight of the bomb will not double the kill radius, much less than that.

 

In short: To kill a tank with a small bomb requires a direct hit to destroy a tank. A medium size bomb can reliably kill with a close proximity hit (out to about 1 tank-length distance) A large bomb can kill a tank a bit further away, but not much (2-4 tank-lengths)

Edited February 25, 2017 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

Tanks and other AFVs are used to this day because they work. Especially tanks are tough as nails, when it comes to surviving nearby explosions. If a large bomb goes off, pretty much the safest place you can be is inside a tank.

 

I think the sim portrays this very well. Tanks should be one of the toughest targets to destroy: They are small, they are mobile and they pretty much require a direct hit to take out.

[Fortis_Leader]

Sounds quite right. The Allies made the effort of actually looking around the battlefields after the war had moved on to verify claimed kills. Even being generous (by attributing all wrecks that could potentially have been destroyed by tactical air support) their conclusion was that not even 10% of the tanks the pilots thought they'd killed and thus claimed were actually destroyed by them (or even hit at all).

 

So yeah, tank killing being difficult sounds right. If anything it should be damned near impossible, at least as long as you don't subject your virtual life to excessive risks.

[Reaperr]

thank you all  for your'e effort and replay i do appreciate. i came to conclusion that i need to avoid tanks at all until i can get good at with dive bombing

[ShamrockOneFive]

Also keep in mind that a lot of the reports of tanks being killed during WWII were somewhat erroneous. Not because of duplicity but simply battlefield fog of war. It was discovered later that many of the air strikes on tanks hadn't actually damaged them in any significant way.

 

A couple of links for consideration:

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/04/04/ground-attack-aircraft-myth-of-the-tank-busters/

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/myth-of-combat-aircraft-destroying-tanks.27496/

 

IL-2 makes it suitably difficult to kill tanks and that seems to be about right. It's not impossible... just difficult.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

https://youtu.be/Ko9lD1FftHY

https://youtu.be/jTiFxa43Fcg

[Scojo]

If you can't be bothered to read through it all, here is the summary:

 

The 1997 study found (among other things) that a 1000lbs aerial bomb had zero (none what so ever) chance of destroying a tank beyond a range of just 6 meters, and the kill probability against a truck with the same bomb fell to zero at just 15m. Since it's probably safe to assume, that the durability of a WW2 tank lies somewhere between a 1997 tank and a 1997 truck, a 250kg bomb should have zero chance of killing a tank at 10-12m distance and a low probability at 5-10m distance.

 

Larger bombs will of course be lethal at longer distances, but not much longer. Doubling the weight of the bomb will not double the kill radius, much less than that.

 

In short: To kill a tank with a small bomb requires a direct hit to destroy a tank. A medium size bomb can reliably kill with a close proximity hit (out to about 1 tank-length distance) A large bomb can kill a tank a bit further away, but not much (2-4 tank-lengths)

If a bomb hits just outside of the range needed to destroy a tank, would the pressure wave or sound not incapacitate some or all of the crew?

 

Or does a pressure wave not translate from air to steel to air well enough to harm the crew?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Killing tanks in the sim is indeed not easy, but, it can be done, and with guns no less.

 

Always attack them from the rear.  Always.

 

My favorite weapon for this is the LaGG 3 armed with the 23mm VYa auto cannon, though the IL2 armed with the 23mm wing guns works for this as well.

 

As I said shoot from the rear of the tank and aim for the engine cover grills and hatches.  When it starts to smoke, break off and attack another tank, as after some time has elapsed, the smoking tank will catch fire and eventually explode.

 

I have also used the Pe2 with the 4 FaB 250 loadout with success.  Drop the bombs in pairs, and use a low level attack from a shallow dive.  Once I get warmed up and in the rhythm that approach will get me 2 tanks for every sortie.

[Finkeren]

If a bomb hits just outside of the range needed to destroy a tank, would the pressure wave or sound not incapacitate some or all of the crew?

 

Or does a pressure wave not translate from air to steel to air well enough to harm the crew?

 

I have never been inside a tank with hundreds of of pounds of explosives going off close by, so I can't say for sure. However, I do have a friend who used to operate a tank in the 1990s and saw action in Yugoslavia, and he has told me, that inside a tank you're really remarkably sealed off from the rest of the world. Even with some hatches open you can hardly hear gunfire from infantry right next to the tank. The study from 1997 talks about "killing" a tank in the form of either rendering it completely inoperable or incapacitating the entire crew (not the exact wording), so I guess they accounted for the "human factor" somehow in their tests. 

[JaffaCake]

I think the 23mm VYa cannon is even a little too good at killing the tanks. I could easily hit the Pz3s in the sides and kill them in a few rounds. Considering that it has 35mm penetration at 100m vs vertical 30mm wall of the tank I would expect that I'd have to be perfectly accurate and come in perfectly level to hit dead on 90 degrees - but it works even at 20 degree dives! Honestly can't complain when I fly the lagg but seems a little unrealistic

Edited February 27, 2017 by JaffaCake

[Scojo]

I have never been inside a tank with hundreds of of pounds of explosives going off close by, so I can't say for sure. However, I do have a friend who used to operate a tank in the 1990s and saw action in Yugoslavia, and he has told me, that inside a tank you're really remarkably sealed off from the rest of the world. Even with some hatches open you can hardly hear gunfire from infantry right next to the tank. The study from 1997 talks about "killing" a tank in the form of either rendering it completely inoperable or incapacitating the entire crew (not the exact wording), so I guess they accounted for the "human factor" somehow in their tests. 

That's what I assumed but I wanted to ask just out of desire to be thorough

[Roo5ter]

I asked this question on the forum and got the same responses as well.  IF the game is inaccurate when it comes to killing tanks it ain't by much.  The simulation has more arguments for being spot on than being off.  

I don't think any other flight sim has damage modeling done as well as IL2.  It's one of the big reasons that I may enjoy other flight sims but I continue to play and come back to IL2 regardless of other faults.  

[Scojo]

I think the 23mm VYa cannon is even a little too good at killing the tanks. I could easily hit the Pz3s in the sides and kill them in a few rounds. Considering that it has 35mm penetration at 100m vs vertical 30mm wall of the tank I would expect that I'd have to be perfectly accurate and come in perfectly level to hit dead on 90 degrees - but it works even at 20 degree dives! Honestly can't complain when I fly the lagg but seems a little unrealistic

I've had many instances where I have to make 2+ passes on the rear of German tanks before they get destroyed with 23mm. The only times I do get the kill in one pass firing at their rear is when I have a long approach and can hit them consistently for 2-3 seconds.

 

Are there any videos you know of that show IL-2s killing tanks in this current revision of their damage model?

 

I really want to know why everyone's so much better at it than I am lol

[216th_Peterla]

IL2 with 23mm only AP is the best weapon for it in my opinion.

Rather that the rear it's better to approach laterally with a good speed and aim for the track wheels. The underside of any tank it's more vulnerable that the upper side so the kill is easier.

As stated above, the rear part of the tank it's the most vulnerable, specially the engine hatches but offer a small area in comparison with the sides.

Regards

[216th_Jordan]

I think the 23mm VYa cannon is even a little too good at killing the tanks. I could easily hit the Pz3s in the sides and kill them in a few rounds. Considering that it has 35mm penetration at 100m vs vertical 30mm wall of the tank I would expect that I'd have to be perfectly accurate and come in perfectly level to hit dead on 90 degrees - but it works even at 20 degree dives! Honestly can't complain when I fly the lagg but seems a little unrealistic

The cosine of 20° is 0.9397. So the thickness the round would have to penetrate at that angle would be 30mm/0.9397 = 31,93 mm.

Add the approach speed of the aircraft to the velocity of the round and that can easily be done

[hames123]

Killing tanks in the sim is indeed not easy, but, it can be done, and with guns no less.

 

Always attack them from the rear. Always.

 

My favorite weapon for this is the LaGG 3 armed with the 23mm VYa auto cannon, though the IL2 armed with the 23mm wing guns works for this as well.

 

As I said shoot from the rear of the tank and aim for the engine cover grills and hatches. When it starts to smoke, break off and attack another tank, as after some time has elapsed, the smoking tank will catch fire and eventually explode.

 

I have also used the Pe2 with the 4 FaB 250 loadout with success. Drop the bombs in pairs, and use a low level attack from a shallow dive. Once I get warmed up and in the rhythm that approach will get me 2 tanks for every sortie.

How often do you get shot down while doing this?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Just depends if Erik decides to come down and play, or stay up at altitude where it's nice and safe and he can play at being a Blonde Knight.

 

I'm more worried about the AIs that will track you down to the ends of the earth.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

The cosine of 20° is 0.9397. So the thickness the round would have to penetrate at that angle would be 30mm/0.9397 = 31,93 mm.

Add the approach speed of the aircraft to the velocity of the round and that can easily be done

 

While a good aproximation in some cases, the line of sight angle calculation isn't always correct.

 

For example, the long 50mm in the Panzer III with APCR had 149mm of penetration at 100 meters, with a line of sight approach it shouldn't have problems against T-34's front plate (45mm at 60° = 90mm LoS). However it couldn't penetrate it reliably.. as that APCR design struggled a lot against sloped armor. Against that APCR type, the T-34's front plate was around 200mm effective, because at 60° the arrow type APCR had around a 4.5X penalty multiplier.

 

Ofc this is an extreme case... but it's just to show that in regards to performance of ammo against angled armor there needs to be some extra considerations than the penetration at 0° and line of sight calculation. This LoS approach works for HEAT rounds and modern APFSDS penetrators as they aren't affected by the angle of the plate though.

 

 

[TheCheese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE1avNJkFM

[216th_Jordan]

While a good aproximation in some cases, the line of sight angle calculation isn't always correct.

 

For example, the long 50mm in the Panzer III with APCR had 149mm of penetration at 100 meters, with a line of sight approach it shouldn't have problems against T-34's front plate (45mm at 60° = 90mm LoS). However it couldn't penetrate it reliably.. as that APCR design struggled a lot against sloped armor. Against that APCR type, the T-34's front plate was around 200mm effective, because at 60° the arrow type APCR had around a 4.5X penalty multiplier.

 

Ofc this is an extreme case... but it's just to show that in regards to performance of ammo against angled armor there needs to be some extra considerations than the penetration at 0° and line of sight calculation. This LoS approach works for HEAT rounds and modern APFSDS penetrators as they aren't affected by the angle of the plate though.

 

 

 

Sure, there are angles where penetration would be very hard.I'm not an expert on armor penetration, I just wanted to show that shallow angles have little impact on cosine.

You got a lot of knowledge there I see

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Sure, there are angles where penetration would be very hard.I'm not an expert on armor penetration, I just wanted to show that shallow angles have little impact on cosine.

You got a lot of knowledge there I see

 

Not much knowledge, just the basics after spending some time in War Thunder forum's tank section    (if you know where to look / whom to read) some guys there know a lot about this stuff. Sadly the game doesn't exploit them as much as it could. Really good knowledge to have a very accurate ballistics tank sim in some community members out there.

Edited February 28, 2017 by SuperEtendard

[HR_Tumu]

on my recent test...

 

Stuka can kill a t-34 whit 2 shots ( 4 impact 37 mm ) im not sure... but i think if u can shot from vertical maybe one good shot can be enough.... for kv1 is another history.... need 6 shot ( around 12 impact 37 mm) for let him smoking black.... very hard.

[Willy__]

Stuka can kill a t-34 whit 2 shots ( 4 impact 37 mm ) im not sure... but i think if u can shot from vertical maybe one good shot can be enough.... for kv1 is another history.... need 6 shot ( around 12 impact 37 mm) for let him smoking black.... very hard.

 

 

Yes, you can kill a t34 with 2 trigger pull of the stuka with 37mm, but you need pay special attention to the convergence. Also its not an easy feat to do, I'm sure the average pilot we have in multiplayer will have a lot of trouble destroying T34 let alone KV1s.

 

Also, if you come in a angle its easier compared coming direct from the side -> sloped t34 armor do wonders and I find having more success hiting the turret from the side. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[Roo5ter]

It can take 5 singles to smoke a T34 and 6 for an outright explosion on the side armor.  2  x 2 37mm isnt guaranteed on sides.  Are you firing from the rear only?

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

LMAO Yes there is major issues but its seems balanced by how many targets bombers can clear from a factory (over 100 on a good run)

But yes dropping a 1t bomb within 20-30m of a tank does nothing where as in Real life
It would even pick up an M1A6 Abrams and flip it on its back slitting it in half.

Regardless of that the pressure wave would kill anyone within 60m or so

Currently looking for the Article from ww2 where a tiger 2 was hit by a single 100kg bomb (it picked up the entire tank 10ft in air crack it in half and dumped it back on its roof (like a hollywood toy tank)

[Finkeren]

But yes dropping a 1t bomb within 20-30m of a tank does nothing where as in Real life

It would even pick up an M1A6 Abrams and flip it on its back slitting it in half.

No, it won't.

 

I challenge you to find any evidence that something like this has ever happened.

 

The only way a 1000kg bomb would cause a heavy tank to flip is if it made a large crater that simply removed the earth from underneath the tank.

Regardless of that the pressure wave would kill anyone within 60m or so

)

If they are un-protected and out in the open, yes absolutely, but inside a tank? Nope.

 

My common sense also told me, that the shockwave had to be deadly to a tank crew at larger distances, but apparently people who actually study this found it to not be the case.

[Finkeren]

Currently looking for the Article from ww2 where a tiger 2 was hit by a single 100kg bomb (it picked up the entire tank 10ft in air crack it in half and dumped it back on its roof (like a hollywood toy tank)

Do go find that article, I'd quite like to read it

 

A direct hit with a 100kg bomb will absolutely kill any WW2 tank, no question. But a near miss (just 1-2m away) absolutely won't.

 

As for throwing it around like a toy, I highly doubt that, unless the bomb was buried and exploded right underneath the tank.

 

And the only way a 100kg bomb would rip a heavy tank in half was if it set off the tanks ammunition storage. Pretty much every single case where a tank lost a tirret or was torn into several pieces can be attributed to its internal ammunition exploding.

 

You seem to talk entirely out of common sense here, and I can relate, because I thought pretty much the same, when I first started to look into the subject. But apparently reality flies in the face of common sense in this case.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Finkeren

[migmadmarine]

Hans Von Luck describes a heavy tank unit in France being hit by concentrated attack by allied medium/heavy bombers at their staging area, with a couple vehicles overturned (Tigers by the sounds of it), though this was by a saturation attack by a large number of bombers.

[Finkeren]

Hans Von Luck describes a heavy tank unit in France being hit by concentrated attack by allied medium/heavy bombers at their staging area, with a couple vehicles overturned (Tigers by the sounds of it), though this was by a saturation attack by a large number of bombers.

Yeah, that was during the breakout from Caen I think.

 

Sure, get a few hundred heavy bombers in the air and have them drop their heaviest ordinance on top of a large group of tanks, and I won't be surprised if a couple of them get flipped over.

 

The very fact that it was mentioned that the tanks were flipped over should be an indication of just how rarean occurance it was.

 

What I'm objecting to is the idea, that a single one ton bomb will flip an M1 Abrams at 30m, that will never, ever happen and the tank is pretty much guaranteed to be perfectly fine afterwards.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Finkeren

[Scojo]

Hans Von Luck describes a heavy tank unit in France being hit by concentrated attack by allied medium/heavy bombers at their staging area, with a couple vehicles overturned (Tigers by the sounds of it), though this was by a saturation attack by a large number of bombers.

Many bombs is the key here....

 

I've tried in vain for a while now in game to destroy tanks with single bomb drops and I have a very hard time doing it even with 1000kg bombs.

 

What I've found is that bomb drops of 2-4, even with only 50kg bombs, is the way to go. This is because you're much more likely to get one of those bombs on the tank.

 

Yesterday I killed a tank with only 2 50kg bombs in one drop.

 

I also feel like dropping before the tank and counting on the bounce to drive them into the tank is a good way to go as it increases the chance of a hit as well, but I haven't tested it extensively yet.

 

Therefore, I think the sim is working well enough in that area

[Scojo]

Currently looking for the Article from ww2 where a tiger 2 was hit by a single 100kg bomb (it picked up the entire tank 10ft in air crack it in half and dumped it back on its roof (like a hollywood toy tank)

Maybe it was hit by a single 100kg bomb, but how many were dropped to achieve that one hit?

 

If planes could really reliably drop only one or even a handful of 100kg bomb to get a tiger tank to flip, tanks would have been much less valuable.

 

Post Korea war, tanks almost became useless because of guided munitions and were only saved by the exceptional ability for reactive armor to allow the tank to survive a direct hit from a small guided warhead. Since tanks weren't that in danger previously it's pretty easy to reason out that tanks were very hard to hit and destroy by aircraft before that point.

 

We also know by tank numbers and reported kills from ground and air forces that the large majority of tank kills in WWII were not made by aircraft.

 

Plus, especially in the case of the tiger tank due to its fuel consumption, destroying tanks' supporting convoys was extremely effective in slowing them down, if not rendering them useless.

Edited March 3, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[HR_Tumu]

I try aim to engine... most vertical i can.

 

I made some recordings , im trying upload to youtbe, nothing expectacular, a pair of videos ( 2 or 4 min lenght ) , but my conexion  its horrible.

 

On those videos i manage to kill some tanks in 2 trigger 37mm , tanks are on movement and i fail some shots , most of kills need 3 attempts... but in good conditions 2 are enough

 

Im not consider to me a skilled stuka pilot... but is true i practice to much , ground attack with il2.

 

Anyway no anybody say its easy, i only say it´s possible.

 

the Next weapon i have to test is a bf 110 whit 37mm, stuka its very slow but i can aim easy whit him, i like.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by RedEye_Tumu

[LukeFF]

 

 

Currently looking for the Article from ww2 where a tiger 2 was hit by a single 100kg bomb (it picked up the entire tank 10ft in air crack it in half and dumped it back on its roof (like a hollywood toy tank)

 

Cracked it in half?  Lol yes, do show us this article.  

[Scojo]

I took the liberty to do a quick google search for "articles":

 

2,600 Allied bombers dropped 7,500 tons of bombs along a four-mile front.... Heavy Tiger tanks were flipped over by the blast or half-buried in huge craters

 

A guy claiming to work with munitions professionally says "you have to hit within meters with a 250 kg bomb"

 

From the book "Hell Hawks" : "Fetzer was wary of the delay fuses on the thousand-pounders... He gave his boss plenty of spacing and dove, putting the panzer at the center of his gunsight... 'My second bomb went off behind another Tiger tank'... 'It flipped that tank over three or four times!'

 

1000lbs ~= 450kg

 

Disclaimer: I'm not picking a side here, just providing some articles since they were wanted

[HR_Tumu]

[Finkeren]

The last one sounds like usual combat pilot bravado. A 1000lbs bomb "flipping a Tiger over 3 or 4 times"... naaaah, not gonna happen. I'm prepared to dismiss that one out of hand.

[Scojo]

It's too bad Mythbusters is off the air. This would be a fun myth for them to try

Also, there are quite a few pictures of flipped tanks from WW2, even on level ground. If not from bombs, what would have caused it?

If men can do it, so can bombs!

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It's too bad Mythbusters is off the air. This would be a fun myth for them to try

Also, there are quite a few pictures of flipped tanks from WW2, even on level ground. If not from bombs, what would have caused it?

If men can do it, so can bombs!

 

Bulldozers.

 

They're really underappreciated for the significant logistical role they played in the war.