Help Identifying/Translating Cockpit Please.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Hello All,

Just a quick question regarding a couple things in HE-111(H6) Cockpit that i am unsure of and cannot identify
(Yes i already have the link to pics of cockpits labeled saved in bookmarks)

I know its the Airspeed indicator also,
Im just curious if the RED numbers on the right of ASI are Altitude marking for Max Airspeed as a given altitude?
(As maximum possible IAS Decreases with altitude while TAS/GAS Increases with altitude)

Also above that there is the 5 yellow lights that i have never seen light up.
The only Translation i could find was SLAUROHR German for SLAVE?
(lol like i said in pic these should show me when gunners in station)


Also Curious as to what these marking on Pe-2 Gunsight are?



Thanks Muchly In Advance.

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[Psyrion]

The label in the He111 says "Staurohr". Called "Pitot Tube" in english. For measuring Airspeed I think.

[Retnek]

Staurohr = pitot tube - in this case it should be the indicator bulb for the pitot tube heating

 

Red marks at the speed indicator show the max. trustworthy speed indication at the given height in 1000 m - f.e. at 6000 m the speed is shown correctly up to 410 km/h.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Max trustworthy speed?
That does not make sense sorry..

ASI gauges should not loose accuracy with altitude only with wind direction (headwind/tail wind will add or subtract to the speed registered in pitot tube) and angle of attack of the pitot tube  (if the plane crabs very sharply you can see a lower IAS than it actually is as not all air directly flowing into pitot tude.

Unless these gauges in the HE-111 had some weird design that was never used again it does not make sense.
They are a basic pressure needle nothing more (air blows into the tube against a diaphram that applies pressure to the needle biased by a static port the pressure differential delfects the needle)
These gauges work In real life from 0-105,000FT(40,000m)

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

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[Asgar]

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[Dakpilot]

Am not going to write it myself but this is generally correct

 

"There are lots of different airspeeds out there, which work like this:

Indicated Airspeed - What you can see on the dial

Calibrated Airspeed - this is what you would see on the dial, if the system were perfect. It may have been nearly perfect before you wrapped an aeroplane around it, but because you did, and because there are small mechanical and pressure distribution errors within the system, CAS is not the same as IAS. The difference between CAS and IAS is PEC - Pressure Error Corrections, which are what are shown in the chart in the operators manual.

Most of the errors in the system will be in static pressure, rather than pitot pressure. So, this affects altitude as well, which explains the other graph in the manual. It's normal for the aviation boffins who create the graph to assume that all errors are static errors and work it out that way.

Equivalent Airspeed - this is CAS, modified for the fact that the ASI are designed on the assumption that air is incompressible. Below 10,000ft and 0.6 Mach, you can assume that air really is incompressible so EAS = CAS. Otherwise you can correct using a chart, or a whizz-wheel.

EAS is the most important number for structural engineers - it is basically a measure of how many air molecules pass the wing per second, and so defines all the structural loads.

True Airspeed - this is EAS, modified for changes in density. and is how fast you're actually going through the lump of space you (and a load of air) occupy. TAS = EAS divided by the square root of relative air density.

Groundspeed - this is TAS, corrected for wind. Also however, it's what you can read on a GPS, so most instrument calibration nowadays starts with GPS speeds and works backwards."

 

You need EAS to calculate true airspeed which is crucial for Navigating, whether those marks are for this I will leave for others, but IAS needs PEC charts to be of any use,

 

IAS gauge will work to 40,000ft but needs corrections to be of use in many circumstances

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Retnek]

Max trustworthy speed?

That does not make sense sorry..

There is no way around a sceptical mind ... thanks for the eye-opener. Never realized until today, but the red marks may show the max. speed a pilot was allowed to go by the propellers! Beyond that mark he had to use the afterburners to prevent the piston engines from over-rev! Might explain the red marks much more elegant, will have to read the manual again.

Edited February 24, 2017 by 216th_Retnek

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Max trustworthy speed?

That does not make sense sorry..

 

ASI gauges should not loose accuracy with altitude only with wind direction..

Wrong. Outside temperature is also an error factor.

 

Edit: Also, to be physically correct, wind (direction) is not the cause of error but the combined air pressure.

Edited February 24, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Scojo]

I can see the USSR emblem on the gunsight, so maybe just a manufacturer stamp that also serves as a M/N, P/N, or S/N? It looks similar to gun part stamps from the 18th-20th century, which are the only real manufacturing "emblems" I've seen on anything

[LukeFF]

I can see the USSR emblem on the gunsight, so maybe just a manufacturer stamp that also serves as a M/N, P/N, or S/N? It looks similar to gun part stamps from the 18th-20th century, which are the only real manufacturing "emblems" I've seen on anything

 

Correct, it's the stamp of the manufacturer. Similar markings can be found on M91/30 sniper scopes: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?268991-PU-sniper-scopes-1940-1945

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I was going to go with hieroglyphs explaining Khufu's commissioning of the Great Pyramids.

[LukeFF]

There is no way around a sceptical mind ... thanks for the eye-opener. Never realized until today, but the red marks may show the max. speed a pilot was allowed to go by the propellers! Beyond that mark he had to use the afterburners to prevent the piston engines from over-rev! Might explain the red marks much more elegant, will have to read the manual again.

 

If Google Translate is reliable then "Höchstzulässige angeize km/h" simply means "maximum allowable [airspeed in] km/h."

 

[Cpt_Cool]

Correct, it's the stamp of the manufacturer. Similar markings can be found on M91/30 sniper scopes: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?268991-PU-sniper-scopes-1940-1945

 

Are you a nagant connoisseur? I dabble myself buy my little brother is nuts about it. I instantly thought about the stamps on his rifles when i saw that screenshot.

[TetraD]

The text on the Russian gunsight reads "ПБП-1" = PBP-1. That's just the gunsight model. There were also variations of this gunsight like PBP-1A, PBP-1B etc.

 

By the way, does anyone know what that currently unmodeled adjustment knob on the sight is supposed to do? I know it's not brightness, that's a different knob labeled "ПРИЦЕЛ", usually located next to the cockpit lights knob.

[Asgar]

range setting. same scope as in the Mi-8 and that's what it does in the DCS Mi-8

[Scojo]

If Google Translate is reliable then "Höchstzulässige angeize km/h" simply means "maximum allowable [airspeed in] km/h."

 

I thought this was the answer OP didn't want to hear?

[LukeFF]

Are you a nagant connoisseur? I dabble myself buy my little brother is nuts about it. I instantly thought about the stamps on his rifles when i saw that screenshot.

 

Yep, I am! I have about a half-dozen of them, including an original 1942 sniper rifle. 

 

I thought this was the answer OP didn't want to hear?

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by LukeFF

[TetraD]

range setting. same scope as in the Mi-8 and that's what it does in the DCS Mi-8

 

OK, that's what I suspected. Actually it's possible to set keys for "gunsight range adjustment" in the controls, but they don't seem to do anything.

[LukeFF]

OK, that's what I suspected. Actually it's possible to set keys for "gunsight range adjustment" in the controls, but they don't seem to do anything.

 

That key command is for the tank gunsights.

[Scojo]

Would a ranging gunsight in a plane really be that useful anyway? I rarely ever fire when straight and level lol

[Asgar]

well, it would probably be good for rockets

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Would a ranging gunsight in a plane really be that useful anyway? I rarely ever fire when straight and level lol

 

Useful enough that every large air force in the world used them (at some point) during the war.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

> Asks question

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> Explains to others how things work

 

Wait, what..? 

[edited] Chill!!

 

Seriously He responded with info that made no sense. (air speed gauges DO NOT loose accuracy with altitude.)

The info in the post was about the gauge and not what the markings meant, I never said it was not true but that it did not make sense (eg, more info needed)

 

If Google Translate is reliable then "Höchstzulässige angeize km/h" simply means "maximum allowable [airspeed in] km/h."

 

THANKS YOU VERY MUCH THIS IS EXACTLY IT, i could not read it properly to translate it.

 

MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE AIRSPEED FOR A GIVEN ALTITUDE..

(NOT Max Alt for accuracy)

 

 

The text on the Russian gunsight reads "ПБП-1" = PBP-1. That's just the gunsight model. There were also variations of this gunsight like PBP-1A, PBP-1B etc.

 

By the way, does anyone know what that currently unmodeled adjustment knob on the sight is supposed to do? I know it's not brightness, that's a different knob labeled "ПРИЦЕЛ", usually located next to the cockpit lights knob.

Thanks mate figured as much but yeah good to know.

 

Thanks to those who helped.

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage

[Aap]

ASI gauges should not loose accuracy with altitude ... These gauges work In real life from 0-105,000FT(40,000m)

Well, wikipedia thinks otherwise (Pitot-static system): "Compressibility error becomes significant at altitudes above 10,000 feet (3,000 m) and at airspeeds greater than 200 knots (370 km/h)."

 

Also, "Anzeige" means display, not [airspeed].

 

P.S. Why would it make sense to have a "max allowable airspeed" marked there? Was someone trying to use it as a dive bomber?

Edited February 24, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Retnek]

Ok, let's try to find out what's going on. First of all the original cockpit panel:

 

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/downloads/Bilder/Geratebretter/Original/gross/He111/Gross/HE%20111%20panel%20g.JPG

 

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/downloads/Bilder/Geratebretter/Original/gross/He111/Gross/HE-6.JPG

 

(great site - http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/downloads/Bilder/Geratebretter/Original/web/new%20site/frames2/originalBretter2.htm)

 

There is written "Höchstzulässige Anzeige km/h", that's broken into it's parts:

 

Höchst = maximum

zulässige = allowed

Anzeige = indication / display of a value in km/h

 

That expression isn't explicit, it's just "maximum allowed value", not something exact like "maximum allowed airspeed". For maximum airspeed 410 to 480 km/h seem to low to me, even for the lame duck He-111. So I concluded it might have to do with a limited precision of the instrument itself, since measuring airspeed with a pitot tube over a large range of speed wasn't that easy in the 1930s.

 

 But a positive confirmation was missing and as soon as I came home I was able to check my sources, different He-111 handbooks. It became a bit strange.

 

First Handbook of the He-111 P, Sept. 1938, p 31:

 

 

Translation:

 

Allowed maximum speed for selected flight conditions:

 

480 km/h in gliding flight / volplane from 0 to 3000 m height

455 km/h ...

430 ...

405 ...

 

pay attention to the plate at the air-speed-indicator

 

  - maximum values given for gliding flight (= Gleitflug) ... really? For what? And the max. speed for this quite rare flight situation is indicated in such a prominent way? Strange.

  I never read the expression "Gleitflug" was used in another sense than no-engine or engine-off gliding. Hm, very strange, next short handbook, He-111 for H-, P- and D-models, June 1940, p 60:

 

 

That's clear - translated:

 

The allowed maximum airspeed in different heights is given at the air-speed-indicator.

 

The red markers on the plate are maximum speed values. But again: those values are quite slow, even for the He-111 ...

 

To shorten it, I checked another four He-111-manuals: all of them mention the red markers as max. allowed airspeed marks for a gliding-flight. The He-111 never was used as a dive-bomber, maybe her characteristics during a fast glide became dangerous and it was important not to exceed those speeds given? Don't ask me, it's still a mystery to me.

 

 

Check the doc's yourself:

 

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Thank you for the great info.

It is as i suspected "Max allowable speed for given altitude just like Almost all planes have nowadays (new ones on a moving scale)
Aka Coffin Corner

 

Coffin corner (also known as the aerodynamic ceiling or Q corner) is the region of flight where a fast fixed-wing aircraft's stall speed is near the critical Mach number, at a given gross weight and G-force loading.

 

 

For altitudes that most aircraft fly the temperature of the air (and the speed of sound) decreases with increasing altitude so, at a given Mach, true airspeed is lower at higher altitudes.

Re by the gauge the plane would suffer brake ups from structual limits @ 410km/h While @ or above 6,000m
Where as the normal limit is 560kph @ Sea level
 

Edited February 25, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[Retnek]

Re by the gauge the plane would suffer brake ups from structual limits @ 410km/h While @ or above 6,000m

Where as the normal limit is 560kph @ Sea level

 

That's not the point imho - at least if I take the majority of the handbooks literally - max. speed for one selected flight situation "Gleitflug". The key word is "Gleitflug" = gliding flight / volplane. The first editions of those handbooks were written in peace time, by people deeply in love with rules and precision, thousands of soldiers read it, a grave error wouldn't have survived several editions of a handbook.

 

So there are two approaches for me:

 

- The word "Gleitflug" in this case had a meaning of "flight with no left-or-right and up-or-down movement, straightforward flight". Then the red marks show the max. allowed indicated airspeed. In this sense it is used in one handbook at least, the markers are placed at a very prominent place and I don't find any values for maximum airspeed given elsewhere in the handbook. Three points for the "max. indicated airspeed hypothesis"

 

- We have to take it literally, it was marked just for the situation "gliding flight". Most of the handbooks present it that way and the ambiguous description "maximum allowed value" is not a clear statement. There were distinct expressions in German for "max. allowed (indicated) airspeed" I would expect at such a prominent place.

 

From lot's of reports we know the 111 was able to go much faster than 600 km/h without suffering structural damage. But the plane was build as a horizontal bomber, susceptible against g-stress. I remember several reports pulling her abruptly out of a (emergency) dive wrecked the structure of the plane so much they had to scrap it after successful landing. Any fatal structural failure in that case would have left no witness to tell us ...

 

So my best guess just by evidence: the red marks show the max. allowed airspeed in a sense of maximum recommended airspeed. The values were chosen with caution to keep a reserve for quick load changes since the planes structure allowed no high g-loads.

[Jade_Monkey]

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