Tactics

[Wulf]

And it would have done even less, if Napoloen had captured Baku. These were different times and different types of warfare and discussion of causes and effects of Napoleonic wars could also be interesting, but let's try to stay on WWII for now. Also, I did not say that Soviet Union would capitulate, if they lost Moscow. I said it was the most important target. Are you trying to say that if Soviet Union had lost Stalingrad, they would have capitulated?

 

 

 

 

You think military works like that? If your superior officer (or Commander-in-Chief) gives you an order and you feel that it is not a good order, then you can just resign? 

Lieutenant: "Attack that hill!"

Private: "Nah, I resign."

 

 

 

 

That is what he did. Obeyed insane orders and stuck it out in the city. But if his army has no supplies, no food, no hope, no nothing, then he should just watched as they die in hunger like flies? Man, you would have been a great adjutant to the great corporal. 

 

 

You can't operate a mechanized army without fuel.  If you lose control of your own fuel reserves, (Baku) and your allies are no longer in a position to supply you either (via Iran) then what do you propose running your tanks on?  Black earth Russia was essentially already under German occupation.  Where do you think your food is coming from?  Have a look at the quantities of food supplied to the Soviets under lend lease.  Do you think that was all done for the sheer joy of giving?  When those supplies are stopped, so is your ability to wage war.

 

As previously mentioned, Stalin was considering a possible accommodation with the Germans in 1942.

 

As for Paulus.  He could have extracted his men but he dithered and lost his nerve.  In the end they still got slaughtered.  It was his failing not there's.  What a guy. 

[Aap]

You can't operate a mechanized army without fuel.  If you lose control of your own fuel reserves, (Baku) and your allies are no longer in a position to supply you either (via Iran) then what do you propose running your tanks on?

 

Do you have trouble underestanding what I have written several times? Hitler messed up the offensive towards oil fields and changed the plan so, that there were two weaker offensives at the same time. Please be so kind and point out what you don't understand about it and why you blame Paulus for the mistake that Hitler did. Other than that, Baku and Iran were not the only oil sources and supply lines for Sovet Union, but that is a different topic again. 

 

But back the original topic. Maybe you have forgotten your own point, but YOU claimed, that not getting Stalingrad was the cause of loss for Germany. Getting Stalingrad does not mean getting Baku. On the contrary, offensive on Stalingrad meant less resources for offensive towards Baku. Still follow? Now, getting Stalingrad would have cut the Volga supply route. Would have made things more difficult for the Soviets, but still made it possible to arrange a different route eastwards. Would stil have left Germany without Baku's oil. Would still mean that Soviet Union had more oil than Germany. On the other hand, if Hitler had not messed with the plan and Germany would have left Stalingrad in peace and taken Baku - no more oil for Soviet Union from Baku. More oil to Germany. Still too hard to understand?

 

As for Paulus. He could have extracted his men but he dithered and lost his nerve.

 

Again, Paulus obeyed the direct orders from his commander, corporal Hitler. That is how things generally work in military. If you have problems of understanding these basics, there is not much to discuss about.

Edited March 1, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Wulf]

Do you have trouble underestanding what I have written several times? Hitler messed up the offensive towards oil fields and changed the plan so, that there were two weaker offensives at the same time. Please be so kind and point out what you don't understand about it and why you blame Paulus for the mistake that Hitler did. Other than that, Baku and Iran were not the only oil sources and supply lines for Sovet Union, but that is a different topic again. 

 

 

Again, Paulus obeyed the direct orders from his commander, corporal Hitler. That is how things generally work in military. If you have problems of understanding these basics, there is not much to discuss about.

 

 

Okay.

[curiousGamblerr]

Uhh, can you guys argue about this in the history section? We were tryna share pictures of cranes here... =P

[Scojo]

Was dropping flaps to improve turn performance prevalent historically?

[AndyJWest]

Was dropping flaps to improve turn performance prevalent historically?

 

Probably not. But then neither were protracted furball dogfights fought out at low level by a steady stream of newcomer aircraft from both sides.

[Feathered_IV]

Was dropping flaps to improve turn performance prevalent historically?

 

None of the pilots who survived the war mentioned doing it much, if you know what I mean.

[Scojo]

Probably not. But then neither were protracted furball dogfights fought out at low level by a steady stream of newcomer aircraft from both sides.

True, but I hear some people keep saying that flaps in game can be deployed at any speeds whereas IRL they had an airspeed limit for deployment. Therefore it's a flaw in the simulation that should be corrected.

 

Also, they might have used them for turns IRL if they could be deployed at any airspeed so, once again, that indicates a simulation defect.

[DD_Arthur]

Germany essentially lost the war, when Barbarossa failed. Even members of the OKW admitted, that the war had become unwinnable, when they were pushed back from Moscow in late 1941 and it was clear, that the Soviet Union was not going to collapse.

 

This bit. Hitler understood this too.

 

Wulf is quite right in that capturing Moscow was strategically irrelevant.  In the autumn of 1941 Hitler understood better than his generals that destroying Soviet armies was more important than occupying Soviet territory.

 

After being driven back before Moscow in the winter of '41 the Wermacht would never be as strong and able as it had been to take on growing Soviet forces.  All that took place in the East afterwards was because of this.

 

@Wulf; the Germans never had a mechanized army as such.  The allied airforces eventually managed to strangle oil production but much the same effect could have been achieved by levelling every blacksmiths shop in occupied Europe and halting horse-shoe production. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Flap deployment thinking will have to change however when we get to the Pacific, because some IJA and IJN aircraft used Fowler type flaps that were indeed deployed in combat to aid in maneuverability.  Also, the late war Kawanishi N1K2 "George" series were the first aircraft to have an automatic, "fly by wire" so to speak, system to deploy their combat flaps when a specific G loading was reached.  No input from the pilot was necessary, other than to turn the automatic flaps system on in the first place.

[Dakpilot]

True, but I hear some people keep saying that flaps in game can be deployed at any speeds whereas IRL they had an airspeed limit for deployment. Therefore it's a flaw in the simulation that should be corrected.

 

Also, they might have used them for turns IRL if they could be deployed at any airspeed so, once again, that indicates a simulation defect.

 

Pneumatic flaps are the ones you are hearing about being able to be deployed at any speed, as they are pushed in by airflow at high speed without damage, as has been shown in pilot's operating manuals, this is historically correct with Yak-1 and several other aircraft, and in addition to what BlitzPig_EL says, also in the pacific the Wildcat F4 used a "similar" system using flaps to increase lift and thus turn radius, this was a textbook tactic not an anecdote, Hellcat F6F also used this in an improved system

 

Flaps which are purely mechanically connected/actuated have a max speed, above which damage can happen, but there are many mentions of people - Bf-109's crop up often - using flaps in close slow turn combat, however the increased drag comes at an expense that in most situations is too costly in losing speed

 

In 1 on 1 combat, losing speed for a short period can be a gamble that pays off in the sim, in real combat at squadron strength getting slow would normally be avoided at all cost 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Scojo]

Thanks, Dak

 

 

As far as the problems that AndyJWest mentioned, obviously in continuous MP servers we have an a-historical setting. If you wan't a more historically accurate experience you either need to go with a structured MP event or SP.

 

In FNBF or SP when groups get in dogfights I definitely understand what Dak means by avoiding using flaps. In those cases it's absolutely much more beneficial to keep your speed so that if your target's wingman finds you, you can evade or pull them in a direction to get your own wingman assistance.

 

This is probably the main reason I favor flying Ground attack or bombers in continuous MP servers. I have much more fun dogfighting together as teams than going out alone.

 

Of course that changes slightly in the case of the 109s since flying those solo I can just boom n' zoom and have a pretty good survival and kill chance compared to going out in most of the Russian fighters

[Gambit21]

After Klaus's unnecessary derailment, more of you seem to have forgotten what this thread is about.

Knock it off.

 

Back on topic.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

On topic:

[Gambit21]

[Finkeren]

Fruits and vegetables it is then:

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Finkeren

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

This thread is now a high resolution innuendo thread.

[unreasonable]

This thread is nuts.

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

That's a real beaut' there, unreasonable!

[Finkeren]

That's not a beaut! That's obviously a Cartoon "W" turned upside-down.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Finkeren

[unreasonable]

Coco de mer. No wonder the Seychelles are called the honeymoon islands.....

[Fortis_Leader]

You need fuel and materiel in order to win a modern mechanized war.   If Paulus had done his job and taken Stalingrad, it would have been extremely difficult for the Soviets to bounce back without access to oil, food production, or warm water ports to plug the supply gaps through lend-lease. 

 

Stalin was a pragmatist.  He was already looking for a possible accommodation with the Nazi state in 1942.  At the time he was informed there wasn't a deal to be made.

 

If things had turned out differently at Stalingrad and Hitler ended up with all the natural and human resources of both Europe and the Soviet Union, it seems entirely likely that British and American enthusiasm for a protracted 'bloody' war between equals would have diminished significantly.  Hitler may have been 'a bit of a bad egg' but he certainly understood the economics of warfare.

 

 

Wulf, not to put too fine a point on it, but this is the second time in as many weeks that several friends I'm trying to talk into buying IL-2 BoX have sent me links to a subreddit called "S*** Wehraboos Say" where this forum is the subject of discussion.

Both times your "alternative" views on history have been the cause of these threads.

 

Would you be offended if I said writing certain things on a public forum like this might actually hurt sales?

Edited March 2, 2017 by AnthonyP

[Gambit21]

Anthony...Anthony...Anthony...'shakes head'

[Feathered_IV]

Wehraboos... I hadn't heard that name before.

[unreasonable]

I had to look it up in the Urban Dictionary, a most useful resource for us old gits.

 

The following sentence seemed most apposite in the flight sim context:

 

"The cliché of German Techwank can be a common fetish for many Wehraboos."

[Feathered_IV]

"History is written by the victors"

- some loser

[Wulf]

Wulf, not to put too fine a point on it, but this is the second time in as many weeks that several friends I'm trying to talk into buying IL-2 BoX have sent me links to a subreddit called "S*** Wehraboos Say" where this forum is the subject of discussion.

Both times your "alternative" views on history have been the cause of these threads.

 

Would you be offended if I said writing certain things on a public forum like this might actually hurt sales?

 

 

Are you okay now Anthony?  

 

I have this horrible image of you and your little 'friends' all huddled-up in your safe spaces  trying ever so hard to understand how it could be that someone doesn't share your 4th grade history teacher's view of the world.   Unfortunately 'Tony' m8, life was never meant to be easy, or so they say.  

 

If you really feel that threatened by an opposing viewpoint why don't you write one of your little memos to one of the nice moderators and ask him (or her) to remove the 'scary words' so you and your little friends can come out and play now.  

 

your buddy

 

Mr Wulf 

[Gambit21]

Get a room