""Those 'Kanaljäger' arrived to us and thought that it was an easy game on the Russian Front."

[Pail]

A comparison of fighter combat on the Eastern and Western Fronts during World War 2.

 

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/text.html

 

I can't vouch for its accuracy but it has some interesting quotes....

 

"Hahn told me that the air combats are not easier, but instead harder than what he previously had experienced. He, who is used to merciless air combats against a skillful enemy over the English Channel, told us that he had to mobilize all his skills to fight enemies who proved to be at least as killful as the Englishmen."

 

"Those 'Kanaljäger' arrived to us and thought that it was an easy game on the Russian Front. Well, they soon learned that this was not the case," said Artur Gärtner of JG 54.

 

'Kanaljäger' sounds like it may have been an early iteration of  the term 'wehraboo'...   

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

wow!

[Pail]

Yeah that's kind of what I thought.....

 

Could this put the bias complaints to rest forever ? Probably not...

[Aap]

 

 

'Kanaljäger' sounds like it may have been an early iteration of  the term 'wehraboo'...

 

I don't know why it would sound like that to you, but "Jäger" is in German a fighter pilot and "Kanal" obviously refers to the English Channel so the term "Kanaljäger" refers to a fighter pilot that was fighting over the Channel. I don't know if the term had some kind of degrading sub-meaning, but just from the sound of it, it has nothing to do with "wehraboo".

 

What comes to the rest of the quote, then there are loads of memoirs from pilots that had experience on both fronts that say that the general pilot skill level of soviet pilots was not comparable to western pilots. Even pilots that changed sceneries more than once (like Steinhoff) that said the difference was noticeable. That is also supported by historical data of wins/losses. So if some Artur Gärtner who tells that somebody else told him something (he himself probably had no experience on western front?) does not really change that perception.

 

 

 

Could this put the bias complaints to rest forever

 

What does that have to do with any kinds of bias complaints? 

[Pail]

What does that have to do with any kinds of bias complaints?

 

Well it just sounds a bit like he was describing people who had fallen for a myth about the 'supremacy' of their technology and personnel maybe...

 

I was having a tease. Interesting to see that this assessment exists though.

 

Edit. He does appear to have interviewed a lot of veteran WW2 pilots going by the pictures of him with them. http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/veterans2.htm

Edited February 17, 2017 by Pail

[FlyingNutcase]

I had intended to have a quick scan of the article but ended up reading it fully. A very interesting read which highlights some of the factors which have brought about the general perception that the air war in the East was an easier one. Thanks for sharing!

[EAF19_Marsh]

It is something of a circumstantial piece; it also admits that plenty of EF pilots were also shot down on returning to the WF (Phillips, Lang, Wilke etc.). From his Graf / Grislawski book, the major difference seems to the concentration of aircraft over the WF which meant for skies very crowded with opponents at altitude. In the East, Russian VVS formations tended to be smaller and at lower altitude which seems to have made it easier to hit and then escape.

[JG13_opcode]

The most telling anecdote for me is the one about Hartmann's first sortie on the Western Front, meeting some Mustangs at high altitudes and them running him until he was out of fuel and possibly bailed out if I recall correctly.

 

A rude awakening for one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time.

Edited February 17, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[Pail]

 

 

It is something of a circumstantial piece

 

Yeah. I think he is being a bit of sensational. He has tried to compare things that  may or may not be entirely comparable but they serve to demonstrate a point.

[Brano]

The most telling anecdote for me is the one about Hartmann's first sortie on the Western Front, meeting some Mustangs at high altitudes and them running him until he was out of fuel and possibly bailed out if I recall correctly.

 

A rude awakening for one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time.

IIRC it was somewhere over Romania. Eastern front.Mustangs were of 15th Air Force.

[216th_Jordan]

Well does the Kanaljäger not refer to 1940 BoB and maybe 1941? Western front in 1944 surely was something quite different.

[PatrickAWlson]

Well does the Kanaljäger not refer to 1940 BoB and maybe 1941? Western front in 1944 surely was something quite different.

 

The phrase would have held true until D-Day.  Of course the type of combat changed radically from offensive (BoB) to relatively low intensity (Channel), to defense against mass bomber formations and finally a combination of tactical and strategic defense.

 

IMHO the article is loaded with unsubstantiated claims (WF vets were more likely to die because their wingmen were poor) to "look, I got a few aces to offer this opinion".  It's interesting, and I certainly do agree with the premise that air combat on the EF was not easy, but as a treatise it hardly passes scientific muster .

[Scojo]

Thanks for the share. I'm going to have to add "Stalin's Eagles" to my shelf

[mort]

The phrase would have held true until D-Day.  Of course the type of combat changed radically from offensive (BoB) to relatively low intensity (Channel), to defense against mass bomber formations and finally a combination of tactical and strategic defense.

 

IMHO the article is loaded with unsubstantiated claims (WF vets were more likely to die because their wingmen were poor) to "look, I got a few aces to offer this opinion".  It's interesting, and I certainly do agree with the premise that air combat on the EF was not easy, but as a treatise it hardly passes scientific muster .

 

I interpreted the article as something of an introduction to their six-volume "Black Cross/Red Star: Air War Over the Eastern Front" book series that, presumably, tries to substantiate those claims with more academic rigor. I believe the same author has a more recent series that updates some of the data in "Black Cross/Red Star" as well.

[PatrickAWlson]

I interpreted the article as something of an introduction to their six-volume "Black Cross/Red Star: Air War Over the Eastern Front" book series that, presumably, tries to substantiate those claims with more academic rigor. I believe the same author has a more recent series that updates some of the data in "Black Cross/Red Star" as well.

 

That makes a bit more sense.  Would be very interested in seeing the evidence behind his wingman theory.  

[LukeFF]

 

 

I believe the same author has a more recent series that updates some of the data in "Black Cross/Red Star" as well.

 

Yes, it's a series of books called "The Air Battle." They cover Barbarossa, Stalingrad, Kursk, and Bagration to Berlin. 

[Pail]

 

 

I'm going to have to add "Stalin's Eagles" to my shelf

 

I think that is a different book http://www.schifferbooks.com/stalins-eagles-an-illustrated-study-of-the-soviet-aces-of-world-war-ii-and-korea-549.html

 

 

 

Yes, it's a series of books called "The Air Battle." They cover Barbarossa, Stalingrad, Kursk, and Bagration to Berlin.

 

They look to be fairly expensive (maybe not that easy to get). https://www.amazon.com/Christer-Bergstr%C3%B6m/e/B001HMOIQM

 

Maybe Scojo's is the more realistic option unless anyone gets lucky and finds them. Keep us posted if anyone happens to find any of them.

[Scojo]

I think that is a different book http://www.schifferbooks.com/stalins-eagles-an-illustrated-study-of-the-soviet-aces-of-world-war-ii-and-korea-549.html

huh? That's Stalin's Eagles, just like I said

[Pail]

I think that is a different book http://www.schifferb...-korea-549.html

 

 

....to what everyone else is talking about.

 

Never mind , I just thought you may have been confused cos the one we were talking about was released in a couple of formats with different names.