T-34 against Panzer 3

[hames123]

Today, I was playing in the action dogfights and tanks lobby as a German. The objective was to capture a town in no man land, with our tanks and their tanks clashing in the town. The town changed hands many times, and many tanks on both sides were destroyed. I used a Panzer 3 to help the Germans take the village, and found myself getting killed by T-34s I could not see. I opened up my commanders position and everything changed. I was able to get the drop on a few T-34s, and kill them with side hits(this is against the AI, but it would be cool to have a tank battle between many human players). I left the server with 6 T-34s killed, at the loss of 11 Mark 3s. However, while I noticed that I needed 3 shots to kill the T-34s at close range(less than 10m, it was a battle in a town) friendly vehicles in the area(Stugs and Panzer 4s) could kill them from the front at longer ranges(across the town). So, I was wondering how T-34s could be killed by various units, at what ranges, and the same for Mark 3s.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The MK. III was superseded by the Mk. IV for a reason you know.

 

The 50mm gun on the III is not as effective as the 76mm gun on the later German tanks.

[216th_Jordan]

Knock, knock.

   Who's there?

Panzer III.

   Thats not how these jokes work.

..this isn't a joke

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

T-34 vs PzKfw III:

 

 

 

PzKfw III vs T-34:

 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[von-Luck]

The MK. III was superseded by the Mk. IV for a reason you know.

 

The 50mm gun on the III is not as effective as the 76mm gun on the later German tanks.

while the Pzkw III was eventually replaced by the IV this was because the turret ring in the IV could support the larger cannon. They had comprable protection and as always its important to remember their intended rolls. IV was made for infantry support while III was envisioned as a Tank Destroyer. these rolls would later change as the Germans realized they needed bigger guns. the long barreled 50 L60 is no slouch but the 75 L43/48 was simply better vs the T34.

Edited February 14, 2017 by von-Luck

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

So, I was wondering how T-34s could be killed by various units, at what ranges, and the same for Mark 3s.

 

With the 50mm (either the short or long version) of the Panzer III you have to aim at the flat areas of the turret from the front, or engage at the sides, the longer 50mm was an improvement but still it wasn't enough to pierce the sloped hull of the T-34 reliably

 

With the improved 75mm KwK 40 of the Panzer IV you could pierce the T-34 hull up to around 1 km, and the sides pretty much at any combat range.

Edited February 14, 2017 by SuperEtendard

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

As in 'real life' history... the T-34 was big surprise and threat to the Axis. It outclassed the PzKfw III in almost every area.... except maybe in rate of fire.

[PatrickAWlson]

The long barreled 50mm was a decent AT weapon in its time.  Against the T-34 it was much less than ideal, but it was also not a doorknocker (the nickname the Germans gave to their 37mm AT gun).

 

As far as Pzkw Ivs and StuGs killing T34s - depends on which ones.  The 75mm/L43 mounted on later Stugs and then on Panzer IVf  were more than adequate to take down a T34 and a much better option than the 50mm/L60 on the Mk III.  The short barreled 75mm guns on early StuGs and Mk IVs were low velocity infantry support weapons and pretty poor as AT weapons.   So ... what kind of StuGs and Mk IVs were shooting?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Salutations,

 

As in 'real life' history... the T-34 was big surprise and threat to the Axis. It outclassed the PzKfw III in almost every area.... except maybe in rate of fire.

 

While good in hard stats, the early-mid T-34 lacked crew comfort and other "soft" features such as a dedicated commander, an all round vision cupola and most tanks didn't have radios.

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

Although historically accurate, crew comfort is meaningless to us players. I, for example, sit in a very comfortable gaming chair while playing and can communicate with others using using teamspeak or another such programs, so that isn't really applicable to us players either.

 

On the other hand... the armor ratings and its slope on the T-34 in the game along with the relative weakness of the Pz III gun against it is, more or less, correctly simulated and that 'does' actually effect our simulated experience... as it should.

[hames123]

The long barreled 50mm was a decent AT weapon in its time. Against the T-34 it was much less than ideal, but it was also not a doorknocker (the nickname the Germans gave to their 37mm AT gun).

 

As far as Pzkw Ivs and StuGs killing T34s - depends on which ones. The 75mm/L43 mounted on later Stugs and then on Panzer IVf were more than adequate to take down a T34 and a much better option than the 50mm/L60 on the Mk III. The short barreled 75mm guns on early StuGs and Mk IVs were low velocity infantry support weapons and pretty poor as AT weapons. So ... what kind of StuGs and Mk IVs were shooting?

Panzer IV G Early and Stug 3, I think. Not the short barrel version for both.

[Dakpilot]

 The less effective turret crew and poorer design elements is reflected by much lower rate of fire for the T-34

 

but it certainly can be an uphill battle using the panzer III in most situations

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Asgar]

The MK. III was superseded by the Mk. IV for a reason you know.

 

The 50mm gun on the III is not as effective as the 76mm gun on the later German tanks.

ok...2 questions: what are MK IIIs and MK IVs? and what German tank uses a 76mm gun except for early Marders using captured Russian Zis guns

[BlitzPig_EL]

Panzer III and IV. and I meant 75mm.

[hames123]

The Panzer 3 and 4 were the backbone of the German army, with the Mark 4 serving from the first day of the war to the last. The Panzer 3 got upgraded quite a bit in terms of armament, while the Panzer 4 got 1 big gun upgrade, from a short 75mm to a long barreled 75mm gun. The other versions of the mark 4 were mainly engine and armour upgrades. I an a bit of a tank nut myself, was just wondering why it took 3 shots to the side of a T-34 to kill it, I know the T-34 is a much better tank.

Edited February 15, 2017 by hames123

[216th_Jordan]

Its really mostly about penetration. Front armor is very strong in the 34 and it is quite hard to hit the vulnerable parts from there.

[hames123]

Yes, I don't even try to kill it from the front, I only start shooting when I am past the flank.

[Field-Ops]

Ive found shooting below the angled part of the T34 side (through the tracks and wheels) gets one shots sometimes.

[Asgar]

The Panzer 3 and 4 were the backbone of the German army, with the Mark 4 serving from the first day of the war to the last. The Panzer 3 got upgraded quite a bit in terms of armament, while the Panzer 4 got 1 big gun upgrade, from a short 75mm to a long barreled 75mm gun. The other versions of the mark 4 were mainly engine and armour upgrades. I an a bit of a tank nut myself, was just wondering why it took 3 shots to the side of a T-34 to kill it, I know the T-34 is a much better tank.

Panzer IV actually got 2 important gun upgrades 75mm L/43 with the F2 model and the 75mm L/48 with the G model

Edited February 15, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Mesha44]

There are several spots on the T-34 that might be vulnerable but I don't know how well they are modeled.

 

 

This image is from the Red Orchestra game, and is in now way how it might be in IL-2.  The weak spots in the front are the drivers hatch, which is a big target and should get you a kill on the driver and possible hit on the engine.  And the bow machinegun.  On the side the turret vision slots might be a good spot.

 

The sides (as someone mentioned above) below the track is flat armor so it will be easier to penetrate.  If you hit the ammo then it will probably burn or explode.

 

Your best bet is to aim between the 2nd and 3rd road wheel and try to hit that ammo.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Mesha44

[216th_Jordan]

A hit to the backwards part of the turret (from side or behind) is usually deadly and detonates the ammo racks.

[PatrickAWlson]

Panzer IV G Early and Stug 3, I think. Not the short barrel version for both.

 

Those tanks with the 75mm/L43 can penetrate a T-34 from any aspect.  From the side at any combat range and from the front - not sure exactly but probably easily from 1000 meters.  Combine the penetrating power with the greater mass of the 75mm shell (relative to the 50mm) and the 75mm/L43 is delivering a much heavier punch than the 50mm/L60.

 

One on one I would like my odds better in a Mk IV F.2 and above over a T-34 76mm.  The T-34 probably has better armor in 1942/43 but the German gun is much better.  

[69th_chuter]

I would like to be able to use the panzer commander's (good book) view-ports with the hatch closed and anything I see or another panzer sees should to known to all (radio - thinking about AI) just to take advantage of some of the panzer's actual strengths.  And where's the smoke shells?  lol  Of the two tanks the panzer is the only one with shock absorbers and should ride smoother over not too rough terrain (more, though smaller wheels) and stabilize quicker after coming to a stop because of the shocks.

 

It's also my understanding that the high quality initial production T34s were the ones that got the Germans' attention while the ones produced in the eastern factories had considerable problems with armor quality (armor being rolled in one direction only instead of two - too hard to turn plates - and sulfur content was so high that they kept increasing the allowable amount to try to get it within limits ... and there were other issues.)  The Stalingrad made tanks were atrocious, but equally indispensable.   Between the arrival of the 50 L/60 and the poorer quality armor eastern T34s the Germans quickly got their wits back.

 

And I'm tired of flying along a road at 40 km/h's and having a shot hit my rear flank and spinning me completely around one and a half times - it's just silly - lol.  In all the movies I've seen of shots striking WW2 tanks there's no discernible movement of he struck tank at all.

 

And with that you can't get coffee.  I love this game!

[Thad]

The Panzer 3 and 4 were the backbone of the German army, with the Mark 4 serving from the first day of the war to the last. The Panzer 3 got upgraded quite a bit in terms of armament, while the Panzer 4 got 1 big gun upgrade, from a short 75mm to a long barreled 75mm gun. The other versions of the mark 4 were mainly engine and armour upgrades. I an a bit of a tank nut myself, was just wondering why it took 3 shots to the side of a T-34 to kill it, I know the T-34 is a much better tank.

"was just wondering why it took 3 shots to the side of a T-34 to kill it".  Simple answer... based upon firing range, it shouldn't.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Can I throw in a bit of an issue I have with calling them Mk. III and Mk.IV and so on. They weren't Marks. They were different but Parallel Designs, not Evolutions of one another, as the Mark implies. 

 

They are the

• Panzerkampfwagen III (Short: Panzer/PzKpfw III (Drei)/Armored Fighting Vehicle 3), Sonderkraftfahrzeug 141 (SdKfz.141/Special Purpose Motorvehicle 141)
• Panzerkampfwagen IV or Sonderkraftfahrzeug 161.
• These two share nothing except the Drivetrain Components. 
• The Panther is also called the Panzerkampfwagen V, but I don't see people calling it the Mk.V
• Or the Tiger being the Panzerkampfwagen VI, nobody calls it a Mk.VI though. 
• Or the PzKpfw 38(t) which I see nobody calling it the Mk.38. 

Calling them Mk.III and Mk.IV is like Calling a Sherman a Mk.I and a Pershing a Mk.II, Or a Cromwell a Mk.I and a Churchill a Mk.II. It hurts my Brain and is Wrong. 

A Hurrican being the Mk.I fighter and the Spitfire being the Mk.II. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

It's just how the western allies named them during wartime. The same as King Tiger or Tiger II, the correct term is either PzKpfw VI Ausf B, Tiger B or Bengal Tiger.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SuperEtendard

[Aap]

I don't think western allies named them "Mark ..." during wartime, as the term meant upgrade of the same tank design in British army. Panzer IV was not an upgraded Panzer III, it was different tank design.

[Aap]

Some examples: Churchill Mk.I, Churchill Mk.II or Spitfire Mk.I, Spitfire Mk.II.

In German military they used alphabets instead: Panzer III Aufs. D, Aufs. E or Bf109F, Bf109G etc. So terms like "Panzer Mark III", "Panzer Mark IV" are just off.

Edited March 9, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I don't think western allies named them "Mark ..." during wartime, as the term meant upgrade of the same tank design in British army. Panzer IV was not an upgraded Panzer III, it was different tank design.

Some examples: Churchill Mk.I, Churchill Mk.II or Spitfire Mk.I, Spitfire Mk.II.

In German military they used alphabets instead: Panzer III Aufs. D, Aufs. E or Bf109F, Bf109G etc. So terms like "Panzer Mark III", "Panzer Mark IV" are just off.

 

I know it's a wrongly used designation (as you point out it doesn't makes sense), but that's how they referred to them, similar to how the allied pilots thought that the Ki-43s were Zeros during quite some time until realizing it was a different plane, or the German pilots refering to the I-153 as "Curtiss biplanes"

 

From a 1943 manual for US tankers:

 

 

"The ten German tanks were sitting on a ridge shooting at half-tracks. They had been at my left rear and I hadn't seen them. There was a Mark VI, Mark IV's, and some Mark III's. They stopped on the crest and did a right flank and started to get in column. They will put a Mark VI in the middle and the others on the flanks, always making one flank heavier than the other, however. We picked out one and hit him and he stopped. We burned the next one. Then the Mark VI, which I thought was a Mark IV, came close. They are hard to identify, but have a more or less square outline, with an offset box on the side. You cannot identify their guns. We bounced four off the front of him. Then another tank came up right along side of him, and it was easy to move a hair to the left and pick him off. We had no armor piercing ammunition so I know a high explosive shell will crack a Mark IV. You should shoot low and it will ricochet and kill them in the turret, or damage them so they will be of no use."

 

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tankers/tankers_pp_19_to_24.html

Edited March 9, 2017 by SuperEtendard

[Aap]

Ok, that is quite interesting and somewhat surprising, considering that the British used the term "Mark" for the development of a design.