Bombing the Reich

[Finkeren]

I find to feel the same way. I'd at least like the option of flying the whole mission. Maybe there is a good solution here somewhere that would make most people happy...

For a strategic bombing sim in the ETO, I really don't see a way around having a map including at least South England, most of France and the Ruhr. 1000km x 1400km at the bare minimum.

 

That's why I see the best chance of acheiving this is in a project such as Wings Over The Reich, that's aiming for less ambitious technology, which we know can handle both the huge map and the large numbers of AI required (though that project seems to me to be so under-staffed, that I doubt it will ever be completed)

Edited February 21, 2017 by Finkeren

[Feathered_IV]

I find to feel the same way. I'd at least like the option of flying the whole mission. Maybe there is a good solution here somewhere that would make most people happy... 

 

Being able to create game-saves would transform the hobby.  Full length SP missions across Europe could be flown at leisure over the course of several evenings for example.  The necessary commitment of time, which is one of the biggest drawbacks to good simulations would no longer be a factor.  You could email your save and mission files to a friend and say, here you go, try getting out of that one mate.  You could even take it in turn flying legs of a journey - sending tracks along with the saves which show your progress. 

 

With saves we wouldn't be pinned to short distances and forced to exclude 90% the war in the air.

[ZachariasX]

If flying is your thing, you can fly the long range missions with FSX/P3D using A2A's B-17. You are sadly lacking the Norden bombsight, but you can drop bombs. Flying such missions with dead reckoning is not easy at all. Especially in difficult weather. (Have a good weather engine installed plus nice sets of clouds.) Finding the town of Schweinfurt and then making it to Algeria is challenging even in the absence of Flak and Lufties. And you can save in-game.

 

Systems and fuel management plus learning to fly the B-17 in the most efficient state is an art in itself. It will give you the range you need in adverse conditions. And you still can make ILS approaches with it should the weather guy be all wrong.

 

I'm always fascinated on how pilot friendly and advanced the B-17 actually is for a mid-30's tail dragger. As for Flak damage, you can intentionally setting one of the engines on fire and act upon that. But then your alternate would probably be LSMD.

 

It would be awesome to have Lancs and Mosqitos with Oboe navigation and the H2S radar, the He111 with Knickebein.

 

Directing intercepting flights as a radar controller could also be interessting, given all those measures and countermeasures applied in those years. There are so many options... all of which are uninteressting for the WT or GTA crowd...

[Plesski]

Being able to create game-saves would transform the hobby. Full length SP missions across Europe could be flown at leisure over the course of several evenings for example. The necessary commitment of time, which is one of the biggest drawbacks to good simulations would no longer be a factor. You could email your save and mission files to a friend and say, here you go, try getting out of that one mate. You could even take it in turn flying legs of a journey - sending tracks along with the saves which show your progress.

 

With saves we wouldn't be pinned to short distances and forced to exclude 90% the war in the air.

That's really a very amazing idea. And looks like realistic to be introduced.

 

P.

[hames123]

I like the Eastern Front, but we should really move to the West. Also, a Battle of Normandy with Typhoon, Spitfire, Mustang, P-47 and a collector B-26, with a 109 variant, a 190 variant, a Ju88 variant and a 110 variant. The thing that would make a Normandy game amazing would be the advancement of CAS. Imagine flying multiplayer and having a voice on the radio requesting support knocking out an enemy AT gun position(the main role of armoured cars was to spot these positions before they could fire on tanks). Then, when you fly there, you see a flare from friendly ground units, and purple smoke rising from the enemy battery. When the job is the done, the FOO radios up to inform you and thanks you for the assistance.

The luftwaffe objective could be to destroy a number of allied units, either by keeping AT guns alive to kill allied ground units or by directly attacking allied troops.

Edited February 21, 2017 by hames123

[Scojo]

I like the Eastern Front, but we should really move to the West Pacific.

[Finkeren]

The thing that would make a Normandy game amazing would be the advancement of CAS. Imagine flying multiplayer and having a voice on the radio requesting support knocking out an enemy AT gun position(the main role of armoured cars was to spot these positions before they could fire on tanks). Then, when you fly there, you see a flare from friendly ground units, and purple smoke rising from the enemy battery. When the job is the done, the FOO radios up to inform you and thanks you for the assistance.

The luftwaffe objective could be to destroy a number of allied units, either by keeping AT guns alive to kill allied ground units or by directly attacking allied troops.

 

90% of this is already possible in BoX.

[DD_Arthur]

For a strategic bombing sim in the ETO, I really don't see a way around having a map including at least South England, most of France and the Ruhr. 1000km x 1400km at the bare minimum.

 

That's why I see the best chance of acheiving this is in a project such as Wings Over The Reich,

 

If flying is your thing, you can fly the long range missions with FSX/P3D using A2A's B-17. 

 

So, let me get this right; the OP asks for a late-war expansion for the ETO in order to be able to fly later and heavier allied aircraft and the answer is.....buy another product?  

[hames123]

90% of this is already possible in BoX.

But the Soviets never used such a system, and neither did the Germans, so we should move to the Western Front to get missions like this one.

So, let me get this right; the OP asks for a late-war expansion for the ETO in order to be able to fly later and heavier allied aircraft and the answer is.....buy another product?

Fink seems to want this sim to stay on the

Eastern front for as long as possible for some reason. But we want a new Il2 with the amount of content of 1946 so we must keep chugging along, and get friends to try the game.

[Finkeren]

So, let me get this right; the OP asks for a late-war expansion for the ETO in order to be able to fly later and heavier allied aircraft and the answer is.....buy another product?

 

Yes. Because I don't see the strategic bombing part of the ETO ever being done properly in this sim. Might as well go for something that's realistic.

 

There's still plenty of reasons to buy BoX without fantasizing about something that's probably never gonna happen.

 

If I met someone looking to buy a Cannibal Corpse album, but that person requested one with lotsa romantic ballads and sappy love songs, I wouldn't try to give that person false hopes either.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Finkeren

[Scojo]

I see this fantasizing a lot in gaming.

 

Players for some reason will always enjoy it more than whatever is actually in game. If we suddenly got what he wanted tomorrow in the game, the fantasizing would still be there, just switch to something else.

 

I for one, don't care for it either. Maybe that can come later on after the Pacific, but right now we should be focusing on making the known dev plans a reality, and that means offering suggestions and bug fixes for Kuban and the Pacific.

 

When the Devs decide it's time to add something new to the dev plan, then that will be the time to gung ho push for western campaigns.

 

It's not wrong to suggest an alternate product in this case, because what he wants is a long way out, if it ever gets made.

 

But I have to say sorry not sorry for giving no real heed to cries for western campaigns. It's all hot air at this point and will be until the devs start looking for something to add to the plan after Pacific.

[hames123]

After the Pacific, then hopefully the Siege of Malta for the RAF to make a grand opening. Until then, we can help ourselves to some RAAF Beufighters and FAA Seafires.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I like the Eastern Front, but we should really move to the West. Also, a Battle of Normandy with Typhoon, Spitfire, Mustang, P-47 and a collector B-26, with a 109 variant, a 190 variant, a Ju88 variant and a 110 variant. The thing that would make a Normandy game amazing would be the advancement of CAS. Imagine flying multiplayer and having a voice on the radio requesting support knocking out an enemy AT gun position(the main role of armoured cars was to spot these positions before they could fire on tanks). Then, when you fly there, you see a flare from friendly ground units, and purple smoke rising from the enemy battery. When the job is the done, the FOO radios up to inform you and thanks you for the assistance.

The luftwaffe objective could be to destroy a number of allied units, either by keeping AT guns alive to kill allied ground units or by directly attacking allied troops.

That is literally the worst idea. DCS is doing Normandy, regardless if they achieve it or fail, they are in process of releasing map and already have four (not particularly related, but few seem to care, particularly those who enjoy their 109s) aircraft along with upcoming Ai B-17.

That would make Il-2 series directly and openly compete with DCS for the same community and what is more for the same plane set and story.

Anything would be better than this. Try with battle of Bulge for example.

 

Personally if anything in the west than I'd prefer France 1940. Curtiss H-75, D.520, MB.152, VG-33, Bre 693, 109 E-3, etc. etc. There is more to the west than merely Spitfire, Mustang, Focke-Wulf and whatever else you pick for such Normandy.

 

For now we have Pacific after Kuban installment and what really worries me is a proper map with decent piece of land. I was always wondering if TF at some point would not decide to join the efforts in helping with BoS while they still keep improving CloD. 

[DD_Arthur]

OK, here's a quick attempt to try and please everyone  .......but possibly no one

 

The Kuban map will be the teams biggest effort yet at a whopping 416 x 288km.  I accept a substantial portion of this will be ocean.  However, if we could take those dimensions what area could we cover to make the best use of a late war theatre offering something to everyone...ish.....?

 

I'm looking at a map of north west Europe and thinking I'm thinking about a day in early April 1945.  I look a little east of Berlin and find Frankfurt-on-Oder.  This will be the eastern border of our late war map.  Look north to a point just south west of Bornholm in the Baltic.  This will be our northern border.  Now look westward to somewhere around Cuxhaven for our western border and down to Hannover in the south again.

 

Yep, that's a [Edited]load of towns and several cities but think what you get at that date starting out on the eastern border.  Or what was happening in the Baltic or around Kiel at this time.  If you hold your breathe and close your eyes and pretend your not air starting - you could make landfall in your B17 collector plane at high altitude over Schleswig-Holstein, pick up your P51 escort and drop on a synthetic oil plant.  Or fly its collector plane pair, the Lancaster, at night to Berlin.

 

Or if thats not your bag,  make an assault on the Seelow heights   Or take part in Beaufighter torpedo bomber strike in the western Baltic against German forces evacuating to Norway...or...or...        

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bearcat
Language

[hames123]

I am not asking for a bombing the reich campaign anytime soon. We need to do at least 3 Pacific releases and then some Med stuff first. By the time we get to the Bombing the Reich game, the technology will have advanced quite a lot. And think about a campaign centred on RAF planes on Malta attacking convoys to North Africa and later Ju52s to Tunisia.

[Scojo]

OK, here's a quick attempt to try and please everyone  .......but possibly no one

 

The Kuban map will be the teams biggest effort yet at a whopping 416 x 288km.  I accept a substantial portion of this will be ocean.  However, if we could take those dimensions what area could we cover to make the best use of a late war theatre offering something to everyone...ish.....?

 

I'm looking at a map of north west Europe and thinking I'm thinking about a day in early April 1945.  I look a little east of Berlin and find Frankfurt-on-Oder.  This will be the eastern border of our late war map.  Look north to a point just south west of Bornholm in the Baltic.  This will be our northern border.  Now look westward to somewhere around Cuxhaven for our western border and down to Hannover in the south again.

 

Yep, that's a shitload of towns and several cities but think what you get at that date starting out on the eastern border.  Or what was happening in the Baltic or around Kiel at this time.  If you hold your breathe and close your eyes and pretend your not air starting - you could make landfall in your B17 collector plane at high altitude over Schleswig-Holstein, pick up your P51 escort and drop on a synthetic oil plant.  Or fly its collector plane pair, the Lancaster, at night to Berlin.

 

Or if thats not your bag,  make an assault on the Seelow heights   Or take part in Beaufighter torpedo bomber strike in the western Baltic against German forces evacuating to Norway...or...or...        

lol thank you for helping prove my point

[DD_Arthur]

lol thank you for helping prove my point

 

Sorry, you've lost me.  What point have I helped you prove?

[hames123]

That is literally the worst idea. DCS is doing Normandy, regardless if they achieve it or fail, they are in process of releasing map and already have four (not particularly related, but few seem to care, particularly those who enjoy their 109s) aircraft along with upcoming Ai B-17.

That would make Il-2 series directly and openly compete with DCS for the same community and what is more for the same plane set and story.

Anything would be better than this. Try with battle of Bulge for example.

 

Personally if anything in the west than I'd prefer France 1940. Curtiss H-75, D.520, MB.152, VG-33, Bre 693, 109 E-3, etc. etc. There is more to the west than merely Spitfire, Mustang, Focke-Wulf and whatever else you pick for such Normandy.

 

For now we have Pacific after Kuban installment and what really worries me is a proper map with decent piece of land. I was always wondering if TF at some point would not decide to join the efforts in helping with BoS while they still keep improving CloD.

The Battle of France would be interesting, but the battle proper only lasted a week and unless you count the Phony War, in which not much happened. Germany was too weak militarily for a prolonged campaign and the short one is very unfriendly to a flight sim, which generally requires a long, drawn out battle. I guess that we could have a Battle of Britain game with a map that covers France and then get a French plane set and campaign, but it is very hard to make such a short battle a flight sim.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Battle of France lasted longer than the Battle of Midway.

 

Just sayin'.

[Sokol1]

By the time we get to the Bombing the Reich game, the technology will have advanced quite a lot.

 

Looking back, from il-2 (2001) until today the "technology" for put more planes and more online players on same mission for make a "Bombing the Reich" game barely plausible don't improved as the time lapse maybe suggest.

[Finkeren]

The Battle of France lasted longer than the Battle of Midway.

 

Just sayin'.

True dat.

[hames123]

The Battle of France lasted longer than the Battle of Midway.

 

Just sayin'.

Yes, I do not think they should make a Midway game, but instead go for New Guinea, Okinawa and Burma for a Pacific focus. Or maybe 1 game that simulates the carrier air war in the Pacific.

[Finkeren]

See: All these issues we'd avoid, if the sim just stayed on the Eastern Front. The Eastern Front has everything you could ask for in a combat oriented sim:

 

1. A continous conflict lasting nearly 4 years.

 

2. No need for stupendously large maps.

 

3. Huge variety in landscape, climate zones.

 

4. A real sense of the tides of war shifting.

 

5. Short missions + low flight altitude makes it easily accessible and action-packed.

 

6. Historical action on an absolutely massive scale, that allows you to fill any role you like.

 

7. Huge variety in mission types, massive amounts of ground or sea targets.

 

8. The large majority of the greatest aces (40+ kills) fought there.

 

9. All the coolest aircraft of the war: Yakolevs, Lavochkins and glorious, glorious MiGs.

 

10. Extra bonus: No g..d..... P-51s.

 

I understand the desire (and ultimately need) to move on, but the Eastern Front is the best setting for a WW2 flight sim. It really has pretty much everything.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Finkeren

[sinned]

See: All these issues we'd avoid, if the sim just stayed on the Eastern Front. The Eastern Front has everything you could ask for in a combat oriented sim:

 

1. A continous conflict lasting nearly 4 years.

 

2. No need for stupendously large maps.

 

3. Huge variety in landscape, climate zones.

 

4. A real sense of the tides of war shifting.

 

5. Short missions + low flight altitude makes it easily accessible and action-packed.

 

6. Historical action on an absolutely massive scale, that allows you to fill any role you like.

 

7. Huge variety in mission types, massive amounts of ground or sea targets.

 

8. The large majority of the greatest aces (40+ kills) fought there.

 

9. All the coolest aircraft of the war: Yakolevs, Lavochkins and glorious, glorious MiGs.

 

10. Extra bonus: No g..d..... P-51s.

 

I understand the desire (and ultimately need) to move on, but the Eastern Front is the best setting for a WW2 flight sim. It really has pretty much everything.

Good points but unfortunately, current theatre (eastern front) does NOT have the sales or the necessary audience to merit 1C to stay.

Devs need to make money not just to pay bills but to have savings and capital buffer so that if they fail a title, they can give another shot. Now, they are on a tangent line (Jason) with a deadline.

 

Pacific is the key. No more eastern. There is already 3 made and sales is still not impressive.

[Finkeren]

Good points but unfortunately, current theatre (eastern front) does NOT have the sales or the necessary audience to merit 1C to stay.

Devs need to make money not just to pay bills but to have savings and capital buffer so that if they fail a title, they can give another shot. Now, they are on a tangent line (Jason) with a deadline.

 

Pacific is the key. No more eastern. There is already 3 made and sales is still not impressive.

People keep saying, that the Pacific will boost sales. Is there actually any evidence to that? It's supposed to be more appealing to an American audience, but how will that translate into sales? Most gamers around aren't American.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to move onto a new theatre eventually (I personally think it's a bit too early, since we really ought to cover 1944 on the Eastern Front as well) and the Pacific does offer one very exciting thing, that the GPW doesn't have: Carriers and Capital ships. Speaking of which: People have so much trouble landing in this game already. Imagine how it will be, when the carriers arrive.

[Holtzauge]

As an ardent SP I usually fire up BOX to get a half hour in here and there and from my perspective a bombing of the Reich late war scenario would be welcome. Even if aircraft were to spawn at the edge of a limited map and disappear at the other end I would be OK with that as long as this was done at a formation altitude were you could set up a scenario long enough to do a LW bomber intercept with angry escorts attacking. To keep processing down I think the B-17’s could fly with a SFM (detailed DM of course!) since they don’t have to manouver that much and to get the FM right for them is not as important as to get it right for the fighters. Also, the B-17's don't even have to be flyable IMHO but being able to man the gun positions would be a nice feature

 

Sorry to have to say this but late war Mustangs, Gustavs, Doras, Zerstörers and Jugs mixing it up in a bomber formation of B-17’s done in this excellent sim has me salivating.

 

On top of that, I think even if this scenario has been done ad nauseum I’m sure it would still be a huge cash cow and a safe bet for IL-2 cause people just keep coming back for more. This is and always will be IMHO what a huge portion of those who actually cough up dough to buy flight sims will want to have.

 

Grabs hat and starts running…….

[Finkeren]

Haha, no Finkeren! Diversity is good.

To me diversity is having a large set of different planes and maps that all fit together. Moving to the Pacific will (initially) create less diversity, because we'd be back to 10 planes and 1-2 maps once again.

[216th_Jordan]

And then have zeke vs wildcat and yaks vs 109 servers

[Finkeren]

Fair enough, but much as I love this sim as it is, there comes a time for me when I want to experience both the air forces of different countries, and truly different environments.

Completely agree. I just wish we'd have gotten a 1944 installment before moving on, then the Eastern Front would largely have been "done". Now it will just feel unfinished.

[Scojo]

See: All these issues we'd avoid, if the sim just stayed on the Eastern Front. The Eastern Front has everything you could ask for in a combat oriented sim:

 

1. A continous conflict lasting nearly 4 years.

 

2. No need for stupendously large maps.

 

3. Huge variety in landscape, climate zones.

 

4. A real sense of the tides of war shifting.

 

5. Short missions + low flight altitude makes it easily accessible and action-packed.

 

6. Historical action on an absolutely massive scale, that allows you to fill any role you like.

 

7. Huge variety in mission types, massive amounts of ground or sea targets.

 

8. The large majority of the greatest aces (40+ kills) fought there.

 

9. All the coolest aircraft of the war: Yakolevs, Lavochkins and glorious, glorious MiGs.

 

10. Extra bonus: No g..d..... P-51s.

 

I understand the desire (and ultimately need) to move on, but the Eastern Front is the best setting for a WW2 flight sim. It really has pretty much everything.

I pretty much agree with you here, however number 9 is more of an opinion...

 

Carriers and Capital ships. Speaking of which: People have so much trouble landing in this game already. Imagine how it will be, when the carriers arrive.

 And the planes. Also, the Pacific is much more different from the Eastern Front than the Western Front would be. As far as landing, I can't f****** wait.

 

I definitely want a full Eastern Front setting, however I just want Pacific so bad that I'm willing to break up that development and endure low plane and map numbers for it.

 

Air combat in the Pacific is just too intense for me to not think it would make for a good air combat sim. The nature of ship attack and defense would help make our small player population feel much better since it would focus more players and AI into a smaller area, unlike many cases we see currently online.

 

Yes you can create missions for SP and focus all of the AI allotment into a small area and make it feel better, but then you limit the player, especially early war when some of the missions given to pilots were "Go that way, find the enemy, and kill them". On top of that, the general consolidation of where planes attack and defend would make missions feel more real, I think.

 

If the developers said they wanted to stick with the East until it was fully done, I could understand that, but I just want Pacific at some point so bad that I think it's a must for many reasons

However I can't deny that having both a Pacific and Eastern Front theatre could split the player base quite a bit on MP. That's one thing about it I don't like

[hames123]

Fink, are you Russian? You seem to champion the Eastern Front over all else. I am British and also very dissapointed that they are going to the Pacific. I would rather they go to the med so I can see the RAF. I like the Eastern Front but really, do you have to appear in every thread about other theatres and call for the sim to stay in Russia?

[BlitzPig_EL]

As one of the many that are perhaps in the majority, and an American, I wanted to go to the Med. 

 

But, it is what it is and we are going to the Pacific, which will alienate a lot of European players I am sure.

 

Personally I am not a big fan of Naval aviation, or carrier based aircraft, by and large, with the exception of float planes and flying boats.

My hope is that after Midway we can quickly move towards land based Pacific action, with it's greater diversity of (better) aircraft types, and campaign scenarios that last longer than a day or two, as is the case with carrier based battles.

[Finkeren]

Fink, are you Russian? You seem to champion the Eastern Front over all else. I am British and also very dissapointed that they are going to the Pacific. I would rather they go to the med so I can see the RAF. I like the Eastern Front but really, do you have to appear in every thread about other theatres and call for the sim to stay in Russia?

 

Heck no. I'm Danish, and I don't get this idea, that people universally want their own countries exploits in the war to be the center of attention. I certainly couldn't care less about seeing the Danish air force covered in a WW2 sim. Our "contribution" to the air war amounted to one recon plane shot down during take off and a couple dozen D.XXIs destroyed on the ground.

 

The reason I like the Eastern Front (and why I think it's objectively the best setting for a combat oriented WW2 flight sim) I highlighted in my post above.

 

These threads are about what direction we want this sim to go in, so naturally I'm gonna offer my own perspective, but if you look back at my first posts in this thread, it was not really about the Eastern Front, but rather a discussion of the particular issues, that make adequately modeling the ETO strategic bombing campaign in this sim highly unlikely.

[sinned]

People keep saying, that the Pacific will boost sales. Is there actually any evidence to that? It's supposed to be more appealing to an American audience, but how will that translate into sales? Most gamers around aren't American.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to move onto a new theatre eventually (I personally think it's a bit too early, since we really ought to cover 1944 on the Eastern Front as well) and the Pacific does offer one very exciting thing, that the GPW doesn't have: Carriers and Capital ships. Speaking of which: People have so much trouble landing in this game already. Imagine how it will be, when the carriers arrive.

Fink,

 

You dont see many American players here BOS, BOM of course. You already answered your own question.

 

Pacific appeals to America and Asia just like Europe theatre appeals to europeans. And yes America and Asia have larger audience.

 

Pacific next.

[Finkeren]

Pacific appeals to America and Asia just like Europe theatre appeals to europeans. 

 

See, this is what I'd actually like to see some evidence for. To me this is not self evident.

[sinned]

Simple evidence is here. Look around here and multi servers. How many asians and americans compared to euros?

[sinned]

Also no one else here including myself has more stake in going to Midway than 1C and Jason.

 

Jason is under pressure to increase sales.

Jason is going to USE BOK as a tech developing platform to go to midway.

Jason isnt stupid.

Jason done his sales forecast based on historical sales of past products figure by regions.

Jason is going to Pacific.

 

 

There is your evidence. If still in disagreement that Eastern Europe is key for his business success, give him your evidence, so he can come back with his more quantifiable evidence.

[BlitzPig_EL]

People have so much trouble landing in this game already. Imagine how it will be, when the carriers arrive.

 

I agree with you here completely.

 

A massive overhaul of ground handling, and the physics of aircraft control surface interaction with the virtual airflow, and roll coupling, among others, will have to happen to make carrier ops even remotely possible in this game engine.

[Finkeren]

Also no one else here including myself has more stake in going to Midway than 1C and Jason.

 

Jason is under pressure to increase sales.

Jason is going to USE BOK as a tech developing platform to go to midway.

Jason isnt stupid.

Jason done his sales forecast based on historical sales of past products figure by regions.

Jason is going to Pacific.

 

 

There is your evidence. If still in disagreement that Eastern Europe is key for his business success, give him your evidence, so he can come back with his more quantifiable evidence.

 

I never claimed, that the Eastern Front is "key to business succes". That's just my personal preference. What I'm skeptical of is the idea, that more American toys to play with suddenly will increae sales vastly.

 

I do agree though, that the course set out by Jason is at least circumstantial evidence, that he sees things the way you do. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I have to admit, a P51A (A 36 Apache) over the sands of North Africa has great appeal to me, so don't go dissing the P 51 Fink...