Bombing the Reich

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I don't think the game intends to be more than a tactical simulator for the present. While I do want to see everything up to three engines, I'm ok leaving the B-17. -24, -29 in the hangar for the moment. I am all for the twin engine bombers and a Normandy scenario. That would ROCK!

 

(The one I'd really love to fly, however, is the Lancaster. All in good time)

Edited February 19, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Finkeren]

BTW: If we want long-range bombing missions into the German heartland, we don't need a heavy bomber. Just model the DB-3/IL-4, those planes bombed Berlin as early as 1941.

[Wulf]

Actually, I'm really starting to warm to the idea; now that I've had time to reflect.

 

[Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Finkeren]

Aside from the fact, that I personally would prefer this sim to continue covering the Eastern Front, there's the problem of the map.

 

A map of Western Europe large enough to portray the strategic bombing campaigns is simply not feasible the way maps are currently made in BoX.

 

This issue will have to be solved, before we can even begin to speculate how much resources it would take to model a B-17.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Finkeren

[ZachariasX]

As Fink put out, there is the problem of the map size. On top of that there is the technological issue of making as well as rendering the map. So far, all is hand made, making large land maps exponentially more expensive. BoK is the first attempt in having a procedural approach to map design. Loading a huge map in game will also require adjustments in game engine technology.

 

Essentially, long range bomber mission would require a sim world based on a world geodetic system, not just a flat limited playpen. Jason was specific about this in a previous interview.

[Yogiflight]

And don't forget, on this map you have a lot more towns and villages, than on the russian maps. Think alone of the large 'Ruhrgebiet' area.

[DD_Arthur]

Actually, I'm really starting to warm to the idea; now that I've had time to reflect.

 

 We could start with Doolittle, just to warm things up, and then launch straight into the Superfort incendiary raids over the big Japanese cities.   Then of course we get to do Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Have the atomic bomb raids been captured in a sim before or would this be the first?   Wow this is really cool.  Don't get me wrong, the fire bombing of Tokyo and Yokohama and setch will be great but seriously, I just can't wait to nuke me a mess of pixel people.  Yeeeeharrr, ridem cowboy!!

 

Nope, it would not be a first.

 

 

You've been able to do this sort of stuff in modded IL2 1946 for quite a while now and yep, you can nuke anything you want with Enola Gay too.  High altitude, massed B17 raids?  Yeah, why not?

 

 

In fact last Sunday some friends of mine flew this;

 

 

You don't need a huge map but you do need a target map.  What sort of sizes are we up to in BoS now? 300km is it?   In The mission editor you can create off-map spawn points for a.i.   What we really need is the coop mode from RoF - which we'll hopefully be getting after the release of the Kuban effort. 

 

This will enable air starts on the map in a multiplayer environment.  Spawn into your air start B17 some half hour from the aiming point and battle your way through the LW with the help of your escort.  Had some good fun with these scenarios in IL2 1946.  The biggest challenge, for both escort and attackers was actually keeping up with a fast moving B17 formation at high altitude.   

[Rjel]

Actually, I'm really starting to warm to the idea; now that I've had time to reflect.

 

But do we really have to wade through all the various European campaigns before we get into this "strategic stuff"?  Why couldn't we just piggyback off the new Pacific extension??  We could start with Doolittle, just to warm things up, and then launch straight into the Superfort incendiary raids over the big Japanese cities.   Then of course we get to do Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Have the atomic bomb raids been captured in a sim before or would this be the first?   Wow this is really cool.  Don't get me wrong, the fire bombing of Tokyo and Yokohama and setch will be great but seriously, I just can't wait to nuke me a mess of pixel people.  Yeeeeharrr, ridem cowboy!!

[Edited]

 

I despise revisionist history.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

Where was all the hand wringing from the peoples of Germany, Italy and Japan  from the mid 30s until say 1942 when the Axis powers were having it all their own way? Those few with enough foresight and the courage to speak up were silenced no doubt. But what if millions of those same people had spoken? Perhaps the bombings you now believe to be atrocities wouldn't have been needed. I'm sure the vast majority of people from the Allied countries would've preferred to stay home and lived their lives as before. That option was taken away from them by the actions of evil men. Cast whatever light you want on it, but given the track record of the Axis powers from the beginning there is little doubt every major city in the Axis path would've been laid waste without any concern for those living there.

 

I despise revisionist history.

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Feathered_IV]

Third Reich enthusiasts often seek to absolve Nazi Germany and by extension all other axis powers by citing the actions that the allies had to use in order to defeat them.

[Rjel]

[Edited]

[Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

Well Dude, believe what you want. What you're writing is pretty transparent and not terribly clever.

 

 

  [Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Field-Ops]

Where was all the hand wringing from the peoples of Germany, Italy and Japan  from the mid 30s until say 1942 when the Axis powers were having it all their own way? Those few with enough foresight and the courage to speak up were silenced no doubt. But what if millions of those same people had spoken? Perhaps the bombings you now believe to be atrocities wouldn't have been needed. I'm sure the vast majority of people from the Allied countries would've preferred to stay home and lived their lives as before. That option was taken away from them by the actions of evil men. Cast whatever light you want on it, but given the track record of the Axis powers from the beginning there is little doubt every major city in the Axis path would've been laid waste without any concern for those living there.

 

I despise revisionist history.

I was hoping nobody would take his bait. He's derailed it once, dont let him do it again.

 

I think 1C will deliberately avoid Normandy and Africa for a few years since Team Fusion is going that route. So if they do want to do the western front they will need to start in Italy

[Rjel]

I was hoping nobody would take his bait. He's derailed it once, dont let him do it again.

 

I think 1C will deliberately avoid Normandy and Africa for a few years since Team Fusion is going that route. So if they do want to do the western front they will need to start in Italy

That works for me. Still, millions of brave souls died so we can trash talk. I don't think they should be defamed.

[Wulf]

That works for me. Still, millions of brave souls died so we can trash talk. I don't think they should be defamed.

 

 

Agreed.  Truth like everything else has it's uses but it can also be a little inconvenient from time to time.  Sometimes it's a lot easier to just not question stuff.   Good call. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Nope, it would not be a first.

 

 

You've been able to do this sort of stuff in modded IL2 1946 for quite a while now and yep, you can nuke anything you want with Enola Gay too. High altitude, massed B17 raids? Yeah, why not?

 

 

In fact last Sunday some friends of mine flew this;

 

 

You don't need a huge map but you do need a target map. What sort of sizes are we up to in BoS now? 300km is it? In The mission editor you can create off-map spawn points for a.i. What we really need is the coop mode from RoF - which we'll hopefully be getting after the release of the Kuban effort.

 

This will enable air starts on the map in a multiplayer environment. Spawn into your air start B17 some half hour from the aiming point and battle your way through the LW with the help of your escort. Had some good fun with these scenarios in IL2 1946. The biggest challenge, for both escort and attackers was actually keeping up with a fast moving B17 formation at high altitude.

This is what I've been saying for a couple of years now.

[unreasonable]

 [Edted]

 

[Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[sinned]

"Remember no Russian" mission would give that poor hommie an epileptic seizure.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I was hoping nobody would take his bait. He's derailed it once, dont let him do it again.

 

I think 1C will deliberately avoid Normandy and Africa for a few years since Team Fusion is going that route. So if they do want to do the western front they will need to start in Italy

They shouldn't avoid Normandy (and the Low Countries). It is such a fertile tactical battleground. The planeset, map and historical importance makes it an awfully inviting prospect.

 

While DCS is supposedly heading there it will be a dogfighting arena at best. BoX has so much more to explore the environment with their commitment to a more complete planeset - fighters, fighter bombers, attack and tactical bombers.

[Wulf]

[Edited]

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Ace_Pilto]

 I think that's disrespectful and I personally won't do it.  What other people do is their business - I guess.

 

If it boils down to this then why are you such a tiresome bore on the subject? How many posts now? I think we get the picture....

[ZachariasX]

This is what I've been saying for a couple of years now.

I guess "battling the way throght some Lufties after being spawned in half an hour from the target" is about as close to a B-17 bombing mission as starting the engine is to a good dogfight.

 

Bombing missions are not just short episodes with some Lufties acting as your shooting gallery. This might be fun, but it in no way reflects the challenge posed to the aircrew during a mission. What about taking off in dense fog? What about getting your formation together? What about navigation? What do you do if weather forecast was wrong and you cannot see your target? All things like that would be missing...

[Finkeren]

Nope, it would not be a first.

 

 

You've been able to do this sort of stuff in modded IL2 1946 for quite a while now and yep, you can nuke anything you want with Enola Gay too. High altitude, massed B17 raids? Yeah, why not?

 

 

In fact last Sunday some friends of mine flew this;

 

 

You don't need a huge map but you do need a target map. What sort of sizes are we up to in BoS now? 300km is it? In The mission editor you can create off-map spawn points for a.i. What we really need is the coop mode from RoF - which we'll hopefully be getting after the release of the Kuban effort.

 

This will enable air starts on the map in a multiplayer environment. Spawn into your air start B17 some half hour from the aiming point and battle your way through the LW with the help of your escort. Had some good fun with these scenarios in IL2 1946. The biggest challenge, for both escort and attackers was actually keeping up with a fast moving B17 formation at high altitude.

This is a complete non-starter for me. Strategic bombing on a small map with air start for bombers and escorts defeats the purpose entirely. Air start in SP is unacceptable for me under all circumstances, but more so, when your mission is to find your way across half a continent to drop your bombs with pin point precision on a pre-designated target.

 

This was boring in IL-2 1946 and it will be boring here.

 

On the other hand, it will save a few man hours, since there will be no need to model a moving landing gear on the B-17, as it will never use it.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Finkeren

[Wulf]

If it boils down to this then why are you such a tiresome bore on the subject? How many posts now? I think we get the picture....

 

 

Because [Edited] like you require endless re-telling to get the point.  That point hasn't changed since my second post but you've only now managed to nut it out after a bit of prolonged nut scratchin.  

 

How many times you been hit of the head trying to catch a boomerang m8?   Find another sport. 

 

Self edited or not the reference is clear. How about just not going there at all. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bearcat

[Chief_Mouser]

About time this topic was closed. Please, someone other than me put a picture of a crane in it and it'll be shut down in an instant.

[Bearcat]

I'd be all for the heavies over the Reich. As for simulating bombing civilians meh. I don't even think about civilians when playing a game because they're not there. If there were millions of civilians modeled it probably would cross my mind but they're not. Factories were full of slave labour, if they were modeled I'd still bomb them. It's a game, nobody is getting hurt, it's pixels. If somebody gets a kick out of the thought of killing civilians in a video game they will be playing GTA not BoS.

 

Precisely ... and this is the LAST TIME I hope I have to say this. 

 

DCS WW2?  Where 'planes that never met in combat,  fight air battles that never took place?

 

I never understood why folks would have a problem with that..  Especially when there are other options.

[BlitzPig_EL]

My big problem with DCS is their glacial pace of development, closely followed by their price structure.

 

Given how expensive their pixel planes are compared to those made by anyone else I can totally understand why they choose to model only iconic aircraft that are not well placed in a time line.

 

I totally understand why the "process flyers" like DCS and all the button pushing systems management.

 

Different strokes for different folks as they say.

 

I'll be sticking with this sim and the original IL2 though, as for me immersion is more than just a clickpit and a checklist on the virtual knee board.

[curiousGamblerr]

Have you guys seen this? Looks like you can do a legit England to Germany bombing mission in modded 1946 at this point. Complete with takeoff, form up and P-47s not being able to escort all the way to the target because it's so far.

 

[PatrickAWlson]

This is my $.02 ... I would model the combat zone as linked maps.  That would allow takeoff and landing as well as time over target.  The player would take off and fly to a waypoint on his home map.  From that WP he would transition to the target map.  Enter at an entry point, fly the mission, return to a WP on the target map., and transition back to the home map.  Land on the home map.  In this way you could take off, perform a mission and land in the scope of a 1 hour flight with no compression.  

 

One  issue is that this would be much more forgiving to damaged planes as they would have to stay in the air for 30 minutes instead of 4 or five hours.  That could be addressed by some determination that you cannot go back to the home map or by simply being a bit more forgiving that real life.

[Dakpilot]

Here is what looks a nice German crane of 1942

 

 

although it seems to be obscured by some sort of experimental defensive device

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

[[DBS]El_Marta]

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?25689-6-4-14-13-ship-formation

Edited February 20, 2017 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Chief_Mouser]

We did a large multiplayer 'Big Week' campaign in Il-2 a few years back. RAF night one mission, USAAF day the next, etc, for a dozen or so flights. The Fw190s barrelling in head-on to the Fortresses was something to experience. It didn't seem to matter what mission I flew though, as I pretty much always ended up shot down over Holland. In fact I spent so much time there I could nearly speak Dutch by the end of it!

Cheers.

[216th_Jordan]

Here is what looks a nice German crane of 1942

 

v2.jpg

 

although it seems to be obscured by some sort of experimental defensive device

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

LOL.

 

@Pinko, what the heck is that?

[Retnek]

That was one of the thousands flour storage circuits the Germans placed in the occupied countries to feed the poor!

[ZachariasX]

Here is what looks a nice German crane of 1942

 

v2.jpg

 

although it seems to be obscured by some sort of experimental defensive device

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Not defensive at all. It was one of Eva's toys. They used the cranes to put in the batteries.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

@Pinko, what the heck is that?

I know what it is

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krantor_(Danzig)

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This is a complete non-starter for me. Strategic bombing on a small map with air start for bombers and escorts defeats the purpose entirely. Air start in SP is unacceptable for me under all circumstances, but more so, when your mission is to find your way across half a continent to drop your bombs with pin point precision on a pre-designated target.

 

This was boring in IL-2 1946 and it will be boring here.

 

On the other hand, it will save a few man hours, since there will be no need to model a moving landing gear on the B-17, as it will never use it.

I think you could have a game mechanic that included a just off map airfield that only bombers have access to - an edge of map except on to the automatic turn around. On the outbound leg you could do your takeoff then auto jump to the edge of the map after reaching a predesignated altitude. On the inbound leg you could just do your landing without being gulches because fighters can't get through the 'gate.' I don't see this as being particularly difficult to implement.

[Finkeren]

I think you could have a game mechanic that included a just off map airfield that only bombers have access to - an edge of map except on to the automatic turn around. On the outbound leg you could do your takeoff then auto jump to the edge of the map after reaching a predesignated altitude. On the inbound leg you could just do your landing without being gulches because fighters can't get through the 'gate.' I don't see this as being particularly difficult to implement.

Mjaaah that wouldn't work for me, almost worse than having airstarts.

 

I'd just prefer this sim to do what it can actually do without resorting to emergency solutions such as airstarts, switching maps or off-limits fake airfields like you suggest.

[[DBS]airdoc]

Any heavy would be like a dream come true for me and my squadron. We don't need a map spanning over half of Europe for it. We 've done it on a regular basis on average sized maps in old IL2.

 

Any kind of mention of morality over this is nonsense. This is a game people, not reality.

 

Even if we put this argument aside, it is obvious to me that people who don't have enough knowledge about what was going on would refer to strategic bombing as immoral.

Strategic bombing was THE most important contribution to the ENTIRE war effort on the ETO. No B17s, B24s, Lancs and mediums and you can be sure that the war would not have ended by 1945.

Wars are not won by courage and bravery. Wars are won by the side that is able to rebuild its forces quicker than the enemy. And strategic bombing achieved the suppression of armament production by the Nazi machine.

Which nobody else was able to do.

Edited February 20, 2017 by [DBS]airdoc

[ShamrockOneFive]

Mjaaah that wouldn't work for me, almost worse than having airstarts.

 

I'd just prefer this sim to do what it can actually do without resorting to emergency solutions such as airstarts, switching maps or off-limits fake airfields like you suggest.

 

I find to feel the same way. I'd at least like the option of flying the whole mission. Maybe there is a good solution here somewhere that would make most people happy...